More stupidity, or again, am I missing something..., Cyberlimbs this time. Options

[WorkOver]

I hate house rules, but I use like 3. One of the major ones is cyberlimb attributes. Seems that these new writers have married the idea of cyberlimbs having separate attributes from the character.

This is dumb. A Str 5 character is STR 5, all the way around. The attributes are abstract, just like everything else in this game. To have to buy +2 strength so your robot arm can catch your body of 5 is dumb.

Forget that. So, you can add 1-3 points of strength to your cyber limbs right?

What does a STR 10 troll do? His base Str for his cyber arm is 3. He can add 3 more, making his cyber arm a str of 6. 4 points less than his meat body...... Please tell me I am missing a glaringly obvious something.....

[WorkOver]

13 views, no replies, please. Help. Please tell me that trolls can not get cyberlimbs that are not weaker than their meat bodies.

[Elfenlied]

Do note that you can customize cyberlimbs in addition to buying enhancements.

[Wired_SR_AEGIS]

Do note that you can customize cyberlimbs in addition to buying enhancements.

Right. So the Troll first customizes up to his actual strength, and then (if he wants more strength), may enhance it further.

Perhaps not surprisingly, Troll-strength Cyberarms are fairly expensive.

-Wired_SR_AEGIS

[Elfenlied]

Worth every penny, with the way recoil compensation and melee damage scales right now.

[Moirdryd]

Yep, what they said. You buy the Limb with its base str of 3 then you customise upto your stat and then you can enhance. Even though the attribute is an abstraction I do like having the limbs with independent stats, it also helps keep the internal logic of tech smooth. Otherwise everyone would have Troll cyber arms and elf cyber legs.

[Wired_SR_AEGIS]

Worth every penny, with the way recoil compensation and melee damage scales right now.

Mmmmm. I dunno. I guess it might be. But Muscle Replacement Rating-2 is only 50k. Customizing each of the Cyberarms up from Strength 3 to Strength 10 has a combined total cost of 70k. Then each arm costs another 19.5k for +3 strength. So that whole kit is about 109k for two STR: 13 Troll arms. Right? I mean, feel free to double check my math, I'm still waiting for my coffee to kick in this morning. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)

I think at that point you need to start looking at the opportunity costs. It's probably more worthwhile for weak trolls who dump those attribute points elsewhere, and then just buy arms up to their max. Trolls who were already maxing strength will likely find that they don't mind missing out on +1 DV, in exchange for extra cash spent elsewhere.

That extra 59k (Before also factoring in the price of the cyberlimb itself) could buy a lot of stuff, afterall. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)

-Wired_SR_AEGIS

[ElFenrir]

Yep-and it will get very expensive. With 5,000 nuyen per point, getting the custom limb up to the Troll Maximum is 7 points, or 35,000 per limb(plus the additional 15,000 for the base, say, cyberarm), bringing the limb to 50k. You can take this up to a 13 legally in the stats(Availability, unless you allow used cyber at chargen, but 14 Maximum since a stat can't go higher than Racial Max +4) which is another near 20k, up to 70k per limb. So if you wanted a pair of cyberarms with retractable spurs(the way to go if you're going limbs; unarmed is just a base Str P, and you can't add bone lacing to the limbs for the boost), you're probably looking at Resources B at the absolute minimum. (You can kinda cheat though and leave Attributes lower-who cares if your legs are strength 5 if you have two cyberspurs that do 16P, -2 AP.)

That still leaves the limb's base Agility at 3, which you'd probably want to customize up to 5 to help out with combat rolls, which is another 15k(per limb.) So yeah, definitely expensive(plus stuff like reflexes are good, etc)but technically cyberlimbs are the way to go if you want to max your stats the cyber way.

EDIT: someone did the math there above. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/biggrin.gif)

[Elfenlied]

Well, you've got 475k+Karma to play with at chargen, so it can work. Add in Synapse R2 and Bone Density Aug, and you're set.

[ElFenrir]

Bone Density doesn't stack with the limbs. You can get it in the rest of your body to help with damage reduction or whatnot or add a little damage to the non-cyber limbs and that could be useful in and of itself, but it won't affect the damage of the cyberlimbs themselves. You can nail the Boosters Lv. 2 though, for sure, and maybe a Reflex Recorder for the spurs or whanot, or Orthoskin on the rest of your body to help with more armor. (The ideal build for the Troll Spur fighter would be Resources A or B, Troll with whatever one that isn't, Attributes C(only 16 points, and you can go with a 9/4/4/5/2/3/2/3 build, which is good for a combat type), and Skills D.

IMO, though-you could even drop attributes lower and knock a couple points from Body and still have a high rating and get more skills and he won't even be a one-trick pony.

[Elfenlied]

Does RAW specifically rule out Bone Density not stacking with Limbs? Or is it more of a common sense thing? Because if the latter, I might still spring it from time to time on people insisting the wireless bonuses are good.

[Wired_SR_AEGIS]

Well, you've got 475k+Karma to play with at chargen, so it can work. Add in Synapse R2 and Bone Density Aug, and you're set.

Sure. It definitely can be done. In some cases, it could be the best choice. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)

I like how it could allow a Troll Player to take Attributes: C, dump Strength and Agility, then take Resources: A to buy it back up. And still have cash left over for other things. So, like, you could have a pretty ridiculous Cyber Troll.

That said, I probably wouldn't choose this for ALL troll builds. It's nice to just have naturally high str/agi, that contributes to all tests, not just those that involve arms.

-Wired_SR_AEGIS

[ElFenrir]

Does RAW specifically rule out Bone Density not stacking with Limbs? Or is it more of a common sense thing? Because if the latter, I might still spring it from time to time on people insisting the wireless bonuses are good.

Page 456: 'Cyberlimbs cannot hold any bioware, nor any cyber implants that take up Essence rather than Capacity.''

[Elfenlied]

Page 456: 'Cyberlimbs cannot hold any bioware, nor any cyber implants that take up Essence rather than Capacity.''

I didn't mean installing the Density inside the limbs. The Density is installed in your body as normal. Question is, does

You also
deal Physical damage in unarmed combat, based on the
Rating of the augmentation (see the Bone Density Aug-mentation table)

mean that it gets applied anyway? I mean, let's throw RAI and common sense completely out of the window for a moment here, and go strictly by the RAW.

[ElFenrir]

Even by RAW, it doesn't, IMO-but for that we'd have to get Crit or Wak or Aaron to make the 'Official' call. (Common sense wise-AND using the rules of every old edition-no it wouldn't count. It actually, if I recall, specifically said so in the older editions.)

[Hartbaine]

I mean, let's throw RAI and common sense completely out of the window for a moment here, and go strictly by the RAW.

Okay.

Bone Density is applied to bones. Cyberlimbs do not possess bones. Hence, the density increase would not apply to the cyberlimb. They possess a metal skeletal framework, but it is not 'bone'. RAW.

However, considering the insane cost of some of the cyberlimbs (one you upgrade them to where you want them) I generally just turn the damage into physical and then add a +1 to it for every grade increase (Alpha, Beta, Delta). The better built something is, the better it holds up to the punishments it gives out.

[Slide]

stronger hydraulics, servos, pistons, w/e cost more money.

[WorkOver]

Where am I missing that you can buy up that strength? All I see is a chart, that lists cyberlimb enhancements, str (1-3).

Either I have taken a step back, or much like the +4 to attributes for augmented max, being in one blurb on page 94, and not in the index means this book is very poorly laid out.

You all have a page number for meto go to that explains that you buy up the strength, and if that page is there, then why the table that lists that you can only add 1-3 points of armor, agility and strength

[binarywraith]

Well, you've got 475k+Karma to play with at chargen, so it can work. Add in Synapse R2 and Bone Density Aug, and you're set.

If you take Resources A on a troll, you are going to be damn near useless skill-wise. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/biggrin.gif)

[binarywraith]

Okay.

Bone Density is applied to bones. Cyberlimbs do not possess bones. Hence, the density increase would not apply to the cyberlimb. They possess a metal skeletal framework, but it is not 'bone'. RAW.

However, considering the insane cost of some of the cyberlimbs (one you upgrade them to where you want them) I generally just turn the damage into physical and then add a +1 to it for every grade increase (Alpha, Beta, Delta). The better built something is, the better it holds up to the punishments it gives out.

Bone Density is fairly explicitly not used with cyberlimbs (bolding mine) :

Bone lacing: Your bones are laced
with lattice chains of reinforcing plastics
or metals, improving their integrity
and tensile strength (and adding to
your body’s overall weight). Bone lacing
comes in three types: plastic, aluminum,
and titanium—you can only have one installed
at a time. It gives you extra Body
for resisting physical damage, a little Armor
(cumulative with other Armor, without
adding to Encumbrance), and changes
your unarmed combat damage, all
listed in the Bone Lacing table. Bone lacing
is incompatible with other augmentations
that add to or alter your bones
(such as bone density augmentation).

Cyberlimb unarmed damage is already physical :

Cyberlimbs can be dangerous even
if they don’t have cyberweapons installed— their unarmed
Damage Value is (STR)P.

Where am I missing that you can buy up that strength? All I see is a chart, that lists cyberlimb enhancements, str (1-3).

Either I have taken a step back, or much like the +4 to attributes for augmented max, being in one blurb on page 94, and not in the index means this book is very poorly laid out.

You all have a page number for meto go to that explains that you buy up the strength, and if that page is there, then why the table that lists that you can only add 1-3 points of armor, agility and strength

Go read pages 456 and 457 again, not just the charts this time. It's all laid out there, black and white.

Cyberlimbs: These prosthetics are basic off-the-shelf
models. All standard cyberlimbs come with Strength
and Agility attributes of 3. These values can only be
augmented by cyberlimb enhancements, not other augmentations.

Customization: You can have your cyberlimb tailored
and customized to your frame and musculature. Customization
lets you add to your limb’s base Strength and/or
Agility ratings. Each increase of either attribute increases
the limb’s Availability and cost. If either of your limb’s attributes
are increased beyond your natural maximum for
that attribute, you can’t use the cyberlimb (so don’t overdo
it), but you can still add cyberlimb enhancements. You
customize your cyberlimb when you buy it; you can’t customize
it after purchase, but you can add enhancements.
Cyberlimbs may be either obvious or synthetic.

[Yerameyahu]

Yeah, customization is a rule (at least in theory) that actually does make sense. If cyberarms with different stats cost the same, *that's* what would bother me. Customization means precisely that you're paying for a better arm.

Now, the issue of customization vs. enhancement is a whole nother one…

[Mäx]

I didn't mean installing the Density inside the limbs. The Density is installed in your body as normal. Question is, does


mean that it gets applied anyway? I mean, let's throw RAI and common sense completely out of the window for a moment here, and go strictly by the RAW.

If you only have cyber arms, then all youd have to do is have the character use a fighting style that more about kicking then hitting and you would get to use the bones damage code (IMG:style_emoticons/default/wink.gif)

[Wakshaani]

Even by RAW, it doesn't, IMO-but for that we'd have to get Crit or Wak or Aaron to make the 'Official' call. (Common sense wise-AND using the rules of every old edition-no it wouldn't count. It actually, if I recall, specifically said so in the older editions.)

I have been ... INVOKED!!!

*KRACKA-THOOM!!!*

Wait, what's that? I'm just a keyboard for hire? No official status? Aww.

You'd need Aaron or one of the more official guys on this one, but it falls down when faced with either the Purple Monkey rule (It doesn't say that it *doesn't* come with a purple monkey, so I get one with it!) or common sense (You lopped off your arms and replaced them with metal. Your bones went with 'em.)

So, if you ignore the Purple Monkey Rule and assume that you get everything that isn't specificly called out as not getting, then, yes, by RAW, it applies. Expect any GM to whack you with a rolled-up newspaper for it, however.

(As a rule of thumb, go with inclusive ... if it doesn't say you get a Purple Monkey, then you don't get a Purple Monkey, rather than exclusive, where you get things unless it says otherwise.)

[Aaron]

I have been ... INVOKED!!!

*KRACKA-THOOM!!!*

Wait, what's that? I'm just a keyboard for hire? No official status? Aww.

You'd need Aaron or one of the more official guys on this one, but it falls down when faced with either the Purple Monkey rule (It doesn't say that it *doesn't* come with a purple monkey, so I get one with it!) or common sense (You lopped off your arms and replaced them with metal. Your bones went with 'em.)

If I'm more official than Wak, the distance can be measured in micrometers. But I've had my nose buried in the FAQ for over a week now, so I might be able to offer something.

I think Wak's right about trusting your instinct. The bone density rule implies the use of your be-boned body in the attack, and a cyberlimb ain't that, so I'd go with Physical for attacks that don't use the cyberlimb and Stun for those that do. It's not necessarily the same as the official ruling, but I'll see if I can get the question added to the FAQ so that there will be an official ruling SOON^TM.

[Jaid]

So, if you ignore the Purple Monkey Rule and assume that you get everything that isn't specificly called out as not getting, then, yes, by RAW, it applies. Expect any GM to whack you with a rolled-up newspaper for it, however.

bah, clearly this is an unofficial answer.

the official answer is that you use the 500-page core rulebook, which bull has kindly provided stats for as a weapon, remember? (IMG:style_emoticons/default/nyahnyah.gif)