I hate house rules, but I use like 3. One of the major ones is cyberlimb attributes. Seems that these new writers have married the idea of cyberlimbs having separate attributes from the character.

This is dumb. A Str 5 character is STR 5, all the way around. The attributes are abstract, just like everything else in this game. To have to buy +2 strength so your robot arm can catch your body of 5 is dumb.

Forget that. So, you can add 1-3 points of strength to your cyber limbs right?

What does a STR 10 troll do? His base Str for his cyber arm is 3. He can add 3 more, making his cyber arm a str of 6. 4 points less than his meat body...... Please tell me I am missing a glaringly obvious something.....

13 views, no replies, please. Help. Please tell me that trolls can not get cyberlimbs that are not weaker than their meat bodies.

Do note that you can customize cyberlimbs in addition to buying enhancements.

Right. So the Troll first customizes up to his actual strength, and then (if he wants more strength), may enhance it further.

Perhaps not surprisingly, Troll-strength Cyberarms are fairly expensive.

-Wired_SR_AEGIS

Worth every penny, with the way recoil compensation and melee damage scales right now.

Yep, what they said. You buy the Limb with its base str of 3 then you customise upto your stat and then you can enhance. Even though the attribute is an abstraction I do like having the limbs with independent stats, it also helps keep the internal logic of tech smooth. Otherwise everyone would have Troll cyber arms and elf cyber legs.

Mmmmm. I dunno. I guess it might be. But Muscle Replacement Rating-2 is only 50k. Customizing each of the Cyberarms up from Strength 3 to Strength 10 has a combined total cost of 70k. Then each arm costs another 19.5k for +3 strength. So that whole kit is about 109k for two STR: 13 Troll arms. Right? I mean, feel free to double check my math, I'm still waiting for my coffee to kick in this morning.

I think at that point you need to start looking at the opportunity costs. It's probably more worthwhile for weak trolls who dump those attribute points elsewhere, and then just buy arms up to their max. Trolls who were already maxing strength will likely find that they don't mind missing out on +1 DV, in exchange for extra cash spent elsewhere.

That extra 59k (Before also factoring in the price of the cyberlimb itself) could buy a lot of stuff, afterall.

-Wired_SR_AEGIS

Yep-and it will get very expensive. With 5,000 nuyen per point, getting the custom limb up to the Troll Maximum is 7 points, or 35,000 per limb(plus the additional 15,000 for the base, say, cyberarm), bringing the limb to 50k. You can take this up to a 13 legally in the stats(Availability, unless you allow used cyber at chargen, but 14 Maximum since a stat can't go higher than Racial Max +4) which is another near 20k, up to 70k per limb. So if you wanted a pair of cyberarms with retractable spurs(the way to go if you're going limbs; unarmed is just a base Str P, and you can't add bone lacing to the limbs for the boost), you're probably looking at Resources B at the absolute minimum. (You can kinda cheat though and leave Attributes lower-who cares if your legs are strength 5 if you have two cyberspurs that do 16P, -2 AP.)

That still leaves the limb's base Agility at 3, which you'd probably want to customize up to 5 to help out with combat rolls, which is another 15k(per limb.) So yeah, definitely expensive(plus stuff like reflexes are good, etc)but technically cyberlimbs are the way to go if you want to max your stats the cyber way.

EDIT: someone did the math there above.

Well, you've got 475k+Karma to play with at chargen, so it can work. Add in Synapse R2 and Bone Density Aug, and you're set.

Bone Density doesn't stack with the limbs. You can get it in the rest of your body to help with damage reduction or whatnot or add a little damage to the non-cyber limbs and that could be useful in and of itself, but it won't affect the damage of the cyberlimbs themselves. You can nail the Boosters Lv. 2 though, for sure, and maybe a Reflex Recorder for the spurs or whanot, or Orthoskin on the rest of your body to help with more armor. (The ideal build for the Troll Spur fighter would be Resources A or B, Troll with whatever one that isn't, Attributes C(only 16 points, and you can go with a 9/4/4/5/2/3/2/3 build, which is good for a combat type), and Skills D.

IMO, though-you could even drop attributes lower and knock a couple points from Body and still have a high rating and get more skills and he won't even be a one-trick pony.

Does RAW specifically rule out Bone Density not stacking with Limbs? Or is it more of a common sense thing? Because if the latter, I might still spring it from time to time on people insisting the wireless bonuses are good.

Sure. It definitely can be done. In some cases, it could be the best choice.

I like how it could allow a Troll Player to take Attributes: C, dump Strength and Agility, then take Resources: A to buy it back up. And still have cash left over for other things. So, like, you could have a pretty ridiculous Cyber Troll.

That said, I probably wouldn't choose this for ALL troll builds. It's nice to just have naturally high str/agi, that contributes to all tests, not just those that involve arms.

-Wired_SR_AEGIS

Page 456: 'Cyberlimbs cannot hold any bioware, nor any cyber implants that take up Essence rather than Capacity.''

I didn't mean installing the Density inside the limbs. The Density is installed in your body as normal. Question is, does


mean that it gets applied anyway? I mean, let's throw RAI and common sense completely out of the window for a moment here, and go strictly by the RAW.

Even by RAW, it doesn't, IMO-but for that we'd have to get Crit or Wak or Aaron to make the 'Official' call. (Common sense wise-AND using the rules of every old edition-no it wouldn't count. It actually, if I recall, specifically said so in the older editions.)

Okay.

Bone Density is applied to bones. Cyberlimbs do not possess bones. Hence, the density increase would not apply to the cyberlimb. They possess a metal skeletal framework, but it is not 'bone'. RAW.

However, considering the insane cost of some of the cyberlimbs (one you upgrade them to where you want them) I generally just turn the damage into physical and then add a +1 to it for every grade increase (Alpha, Beta, Delta). The better built something is, the better it holds up to the punishments it gives out.

stronger hydraulics, servos, pistons, w/e cost more money.

Where am I missing that you can buy up that strength? All I see is a chart, that lists cyberlimb enhancements, str (1-3).

Either I have taken a step back, or much like the +4 to attributes for augmented max, being in one blurb on page 94, and not in the index means this book is very poorly laid out.

You all have a page number for meto go to that explains that you buy up the strength, and if that page is there, then why the table that lists that you can only add 1-3 points of armor, agility and strength

If you take Resources A on a troll, you are going to be damn near useless skill-wise.

Bone Density is fairly explicitly not used with cyberlimbs (bolding mine) :



Cyberlimb unarmed damage is already physical :






Go read pages 456 and 457 again, not just the charts this time. It's all laid out there, black and white.

Yeah, customization is a rule (at least in theory) that actually does make sense. If cyberarms with different stats cost the same, *that's* what would bother me. Customization means precisely that you're paying for a better arm.

Now, the issue of customization vs. enhancement is a whole nother one…

If you only have cyber arms, then all youd have to do is have the character use a fighting style that more about kicking then hitting and you would get to use the bones damage code

I have been ... INVOKED!!!

*KRACKA-THOOM!!!*

Wait, what's that? I'm just a keyboard for hire? No official status? Aww.

You'd need Aaron or one of the more official guys on this one, but it falls down when faced with either the Purple Monkey rule (It doesn't say that it *doesn't* come with a purple monkey, so I get one with it!) or common sense (You lopped off your arms and replaced them with metal. Your bones went with 'em.)

So, if you ignore the Purple Monkey Rule and assume that you get everything that isn't specificly called out as not getting, then, yes, by RAW, it applies. Expect any GM to whack you with a rolled-up newspaper for it, however.

(As a rule of thumb, go with inclusive ... if it doesn't say you get a Purple Monkey, then you don't get a Purple Monkey, rather than exclusive, where you get things unless it says otherwise.)

If I'm more official than Wak, the distance can be measured in micrometers. But I've had my nose buried in the FAQ for over a week now, so I might be able to offer something.

I think Wak's right about trusting your instinct. The bone density rule implies the use of your be-boned body in the attack, and a cyberlimb ain't that, so I'd go with Physical for attacks that don't use the cyberlimb and Stun for those that do. It's not necessarily the same as the official ruling, but I'll see if I can get the question added to the FAQ so that there will be an official ruling SOON^TM.

bah, clearly this is an unofficial answer.

the official answer is that you use the 500-page core rulebook, which bull has kindly provided stats for as a weapon, remember?

Aaron, see my quote above. Per RAW, cyberlimb attacks already do physical damage anyway (p.496, in the Cyberlimb description.)

There's nothing stopping you from having Bone Lacing as well as Cyberlimbs. If you punch with a cyberarm, it deals Physical damage, but you don't get any bonus DV from the Bone Lacing, as there are no bones in your cyberarm.

The rest of you does have bones, though, so if you kick with your natural leg, it also deals Physical damage (because of the bone lacing), and you do get the bonus DV.

As for the other effects of Bone Lacing - the Body and Armor bonuses - I would state they apply normally, and even stack with cyberlimb armor.

~Umi

Ah. Then what's the question?

Bone augmentations give one damage code, cyberlimbs an another one.
Some of them seem to thing that you would have to use the lower damage code of the cyber arms for unarmed.

Bone-Lacing and Limbs stacked, so i don't see why density should not stack.
Close Combat is, after all, not a single punch, but a combination of kicks, punches, head-butts and whatever else you can think of basically.
It's an action that needs the complete body to do. Of course, if you just punch somebody with the fake arm, then you don't get the density + to damage any more, but as long as it's not just a single punch, you do get it.

In that case, my answer doesn't really change (except for the bit about Stun damage). If it was me, I'd recommend using the damage from the cyberlimb if you use the cyberlimb's rating, and if not, then your normal damage.

So metal inside a limb is more effective a weapon then a limb made out of metal... That's interesting...

Take it up with the guys who wrote the rules. We're just reading and interpreting them what we feel is the simplest, most mechanically logical way.

~Umi

I disagree on your interpretation being remotely logical. The rules for bone lacing state that :



Cyberlimbs replace your bones, which is pretty much the most radical alteration possible.


Therefore, bone lacing is incompatible with cyberlimbs.

Limbs don't replace all of your bones, so the rest of the body still has completely untouched bones so it still works.

@binarywraith

Removing bones is not adding to or altering them. There is no longer a bone to alter or add to.

Quick thought experiment. If someone has lost a hand, would you allow them to take Bone Lacing? Surely they can lace all of their other, remaining bones, right? Or would you argue that, because the hands in the bone have been removed, that counts as an alteration and therefor you cannot lace the bones in the rest of your body?

Obviously they are compatible. Obviously the intention of the rule you quote is to prevent people from combining Bone Lacing and Bone Density, as they would both be altering the same bones. Having a cyberlimb doesn't alter bones - it removes them, and therefor there are no bones to alter.

~Umi

I think one of the arguments is that how Unarmed Combat doesn't just use like, One Arm, but is a series of attacks. It was actually described like that in the SR3 book.

HOWEVER, and there's a big however here: if someone said 'Well, I have two arms with Strength and Agility of 9, and a 4 Strength and Agility in the rest of my body. But I get the rest of my body laced with bones to make it harder. But since unarmed is a series of attacks, my arm hits would do 9+2P, right, since it's just Not One Punch?'

...Well, no. If you see Unarmed Combat as 'a series of attacks', then sure, you do Str P damage...but you're averaging all 4 limbs AND the torso together and using that Strength and Agility rating for the attack and damage roll, since your using your whole body, just as it says.. So you're actually doing 4+4+4+9+9, or 30/5, for 6+2P, actually less than what you'd be doing if you just punched him.'

Now, if you specifically tell me 'I'm just going to punch this dude in the face', then you can use your Strength and Agility ratings that are in the arms.

not to play devil's advocate.... ahh who am I kidding I am

Even a punch doesn't use just your arms. Power comes from the legs and hips as well.

Oh, I believe it. I'm willing to fudge a little bit(I'm not looking for like, 110% realism here). But when it looks like there might be bonuses upon bonuses upon bonuses stacking, I might end up bringing the hammer down. (I have, for the record, a very small rules hammer. It's almost cute, but it does come down once in awhile.)

This is why i think SR3 is better.
It had rules for things like these!

I would honestly say there's equivalent to better options for the cyberlimbs, so pairing them with bone lacing is silly -- each limb can give you the equivalent armor benefit of a whole bone lacing, and you can take cyberspurs for the damage boost to unarmed combat.

Cyberspurs are actually better than any unarmed option as well; max Bone Lacing is Str+3P, Spurs are Str+3P, -2 AP. (Speaking purely mechanically here. Flavor is another story of course.)

Need to knock out instead? Just punch 'em-or, of course, Shock Hands(9S electric, -5 AP baby).

Did it adress the cyberlimbs and bone lacing issue? Do you have a page reference?

it did.
up to 2 limbs, you got the complete bonus from stuff like bonelace and dermal tech. at 3 limbs, you started to lose stuff again.

Page reference?

i'm at work, no books here.

THIS!!! Correct! This is a game of abstracts. This is why a head shot is only -4 to armor, even if the target is not wearing a helmet. This is why +3 to a cyberarm's armor, will protect you from that same head shot.

This game is not about realism. Melee combat is not Me throw a punch, but instead, hand to hand does Str S. If you have cyber limbs it is Str P.

With independent stats on a cyber arm, it is no longer abstract, but instead, for cyborgs, their hand to hand combat is about throwing a punch. A cyber arm with more strength and Agility would still move only as fast as the body it is attached to.

You use your back muscles to lift you arm. The trapezius, latisimus dorsi and pectoralis major are all more invloved in throwing a punch than an arm ever is. You then have to add the hip flexors, and even the calves and feet for placement.

These rules do not make sense from any standpoint.

They should have been like 1-3rd. They should have your stats, and +1 to melee power per limb, and +1 to body or condition monitor per cyber limb/head/torso.

Cyber limbs would have more crush strength because of the nad, so choke damage should be insane, but a punch? No. Just no. These rules sucked in 4th, they suck in 5th.

P.S. Side point, troll limbs should be at 2 agility and 7 strength.

Founds it:
Man and Machine
Page 32 and ongoing.
Cyberware Compatibility.

SR3 did adress the question in a sourcebook and not in the main rulebook then. There's still hope for SR5, then.

I do kinda remember that. I do recall that the more parts you got, the less useful other cyber was to the rest of your body. Of course, this rule can be changed in 5(again, I'd, for the sake of things, allow 'I use my cyberarm spur to stab them' use the Arm abilities, but yeah-not stacking Bone Lacing and Cyberlimbs to try to cheese out more damage(nowadays.) Back then though...

Now, I'll actually be lean here for a second-in Shadowrun 3e, it was...a LOT harder to get really tricked out limbs. They were REALLY damn expensive in those days, and you were essentially taking Resources A, period, if you wanted even 2 completely tricked out limbs, let alone more than that.

ALSO, in those days, if you jacked a limb past it's +3(they didn't have custom limbs then-essentially, a limb was set at your Racial Average +1 in both stats), it cost essence for each point, in addition to the base Essence, and it cost a lot more. So yeah, above: Human Cyberarm was base Quickness and Strength of 4. They wanted a 9? they were paying 75k for the limb, 150k to get Str to 7, 90,000 to get Quickness to 7, then an additional 150k to get Strength to 9, and then ANOTHER 90,000 for Quickness to 9. The extra Essence added up to 1.4, in addition to 1 for the limb, for an absolute grand total of 2.4 essence and 555,000 nuyen. For ONE arm.
(And all races paid the same to get their Racial Augmented Max.)

So having them stack in those days? It's like go for it-the stuff was so bloody expensive that a character was never really going to end up with damage that was any more than someone who'd have opted for Muscle Aug/Toner 4, a Suprathyroid, and Bone Lacing, and the latter would do it cheaper for all of that than the other person paid for the single arm.

Nowadays, though-limbs are so cheap to pump up, I'd rule against any sort of stacking. Take one or the other. Punch with your meat-laced arm, you get that damage. Use the cyberarm, you get that damage. Better balance and it avoids damage going up to the 20+ cheese levels all over again.