Angel Summoner, quick and easy Force 9 spirits Options

[Nal0n]

I remember that group I played with some time ago ... 3M 2F ... and the mage used the Orgy spell for the first time ...

Great GM skills and good RP involved we had a very good laugh ... well several.

The Saturday continued, we imbibed some Alcohol and some other "stuff" and had a real good time ... until one of the players brought up the idea of testing that Orgy stuff OC ...

I just say it was a very interesting weekend and we played together for 3 more years (IMG:style_emoticons/default/wink.gif)

Oh well *blush*

[Sendaz]

Things you don't want to hear in a Shadowrun bedroom.


Oohhhh... critical glitch (IMG:style_emoticons/default/frown.gif)

[X-Kalibur]

I think specifying that Power Foci don't affect whether drain is physical or stun would help a lot. Increasing the opposition test to Force x2 makes summoning scary and unreliable even at low levels -- maybe keep the opposition test at Force but change the drain to (Force + spirit hits) instead of (2x spirit hits)? That's a bit more drain on the low end but definitely makes things tougher at the high end.

Unless this makes it into the errata, though, we're just talking about house rules. I really would appreciate some errata with the specific intent of making balance fixes -- here's hoping!

While they did change a lot in this edition, for the past 4 editions the power focus has only improved the dice pool for all magic linked skills and has never actually improved the magic attribute. I can't imagine they would actually allow for it to raise the limit on when spells hit physical drain. But I could be wrong.

[Nal0n]

While they did change a lot in this edition, for the past 4 editions the power focus has only improved the dice pool for all magic linked skills and has never actually improved the magic attribute. I can't imagine they would actually allow for it to raise the limit on when spells hit physical drain. But I could be wrong.

To balance that Drain is now based on F instead of F/2?

[Tymeaus Jalynsfe...]

While they did change a lot in this edition, for the past 4 editions the power focus has only improved the dice pool for all magic linked skills and has never actually improved the magic attribute. I can't imagine they would actually allow for it to raise the limit on when spells hit physical drain. But I could be wrong.

Ummmm... 2nd and 3rd Edition Power Foci RAISED YOUR MAGIC RATING. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)

[X-Kalibur]

Ummmm... 2nd and 3rd Edition Power Foci RAISED YOUR MAGIC RATING. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)

Did they? My brain must be addled again.

[Cheops]

It wasn't as big a deal in SR3 (my edition) to have your magic go up. Spellcasting was limited by Force learned which cost Karma = force. Usually you'd see points being spent on more skills or else initiations rather than Force 12. Not as many nukes being thrown around back before the Magicrun editions.

[xsansara]

Back on topic:

The Hail-Mary F12 is quite dangerous. Odds for at least 12P (which might kill you) are 18%;
14P (which will kill you, unless you are a troll) 7%
16P 2%

F10 looks much more survivable
12P - 8%
14P - 2%
16P - <0.5%

And should be about as deadly.

[Shinobi Killfist]

I really wish they had done something to weaken summoned spirits drastically in this edition. Their power and versatility are absurd. Hell make the default resist the spirit puts up x2 force with binding being x3 and great forms x4. But in SR4 mages routinely summoned up force 8-9 spirits and they were game changers. It seems no different in SR5. The most broken things about mages in SR4 was not changed at all, well even if it was an over correction at least they caught that direct damage spells were an issue and hey the change to control spells are fairly solid so that is nice. Too bad they didn't catch this amazingly obvious issue while playtesting.

[Tymeaus Jalynsfe...]

Back on topic:

The Hail-Mary F12 is quite dangerous. Odds for at least 12P (which might kill you) are 18%;
14P (which will kill you, unless you are a troll) 7%
16P 2%

F10 looks much more survivable
12P - 8%
14P - 2%
16P - <0.5%

And should be about as deadly.

Hey, in SR4A, we had a Mage that took 20s Drain from the F5 Spirit he summoned. Was quite entertaining. And it almost killed him.

[Tymeaus Jalynsfe...]

I really wish they had done something to weaken summoned spirits drastically in this edition. Their power and versatility are absurd. Hell make the default resist the spirit puts up x2 force with binding being x3 and great forms x4.

But in SR4 mages routinely summoned up force 8-9 spirits and they were game changers.

It seems no different in SR5. The most broken things about mages in SR4 was not changed at all, well even if it was an over correction at least they caught that direct damage spells were an issue and hey the change to control spells are fairly solid so that is nice. Too bad they didn't catch this amazingly obvious issue while playtesting.

They are indeed powerful, to be sure.

Not at our table they didn't. Force 5-6 was taking your Life into your own hands, and Binding Force 5+ was REALLY dangerous.

Funny, Mages never seem overpowered in our games, Not really (Powerful, yes, Overpowered, No). Of course, we encounter Background Count, Wards, and other magical constraints fairly commonly, so... (IMG:style_emoticons/default/wobble.gif)

[phlapjack77]

Not at our table they didn't. Force 5-6 was taking your Life into your own hands, and Binding Force 5+ was REALLY dangerous.

Funny, Mages never seem overpowered in our games, Not really (Powerful, yes, Overpowered, No). Of course, we encounter Background Count, Wards, and other magical constraints fairly commonly, so... (IMG:style_emoticons/default/wobble.gif)

TJ Fallacy

(IMG:style_emoticons/default/nyahnyah.gif)

[Korwin]

Hey, in SR4A, we had a Mage that took 20s Drain from the F5 Spirit he summoned. Was quite entertaining. And it almost killed him.

Summoned? you mean bind?

[Elfenlied]

I really wish they had done something to weaken summoned spirits drastically in this edition. Their power and versatility are absurd. Hell make the default resist the spirit puts up x2 force with binding being x3 and great forms x4. But in SR4 mages routinely summoned up force 8-9 spirits and they were game changers. It seems no different in SR5. The most broken things about mages in SR4 was not changed at all, well even if it was an over correction at least they caught that direct damage spells were an issue and hey the change to control spells are fairly solid so that is nice. Too bad they didn't catch this amazingly obvious issue while playtesting.

Well, spirits right now are all the mage has left that is really outstanding powerwise. Spell damage below F6 is simply so uncompetitive it isn't even funny (and even F6 is worse than some Heavy Pistol loadouts). It'll take boatloads of Karma before they can even think about competiting with any rifles.

Sure, spells are still versatile, but the only real shortcut they get in comparison to other characters is mental manipulation, and that is only because most DMs tend to drastically lowball and curb the effects of social engineering? I mean, how often does the Face get to be Sophie Devereaux?

So yes, high Force spirits are powerful, but the mage kinda needs access to them. Below F6, a Heavy Pistol will circumvent the ItNW without special ammo, and with APDS being significantly easier to access, it will be a lot more common. A Predator with APDS can easily pierce F7. The moment real weapons enter the playing field, spirits aren't that special anymore.

Give it a shot in your game, and test it. I've found that spirits are not nearly as strong as they were in SR4, and neither are spells.

Hey, in SR4A, we had a Mage that took 20s Drain from the F5 Spirit he summoned. Was quite entertaining. And it almost killed him.

You had a F5 spirit use edge to resist summoning? Wow, that's probably the lowest Force by far where I've seen a spirit use edge.

[Irion]

Back on topic:

The Hail-Mary F12 is quite dangerous. Odds for at least 12P (which might kill you) are 18%;
14P (which will kill you, unless you are a troll) 7%
16P 2%

F10 looks much more survivable
12P - 8%
14P - 2%
16P - <0.5%

And should be about as deadly.

Well, you get a roll to soak damage anyway. Edge it up and it won't be that bad. 10 points in drain attributes would be normal. And further maybe initation or whatever.
10 Points reduce drain by about 3 points. Now you can reroll for addition 2 hits or add edge for hits depending on your edge attribute.

Now, if you got somebody with a medkid you will be save up to 14P. The major Problem with high force spirits is, that they are able to solve a "run" if things go the players way. If you get knocked out summoning it just regroup...

It is not balanced if something will kill you in one out of 1000 cases. It might be balanced in the "real world" because nobody would risk it on the long run (espacially with the fact major injuries will have long term consequences). But Shadowrun ignores a lot of that and you heal quite fast.

[Sendaz]

thought medkits don't help with drain anymore?

[Irion]

@Sendaz
Stabalize, but I am not sure about that, I have to admit.

[xsansara]

The problem with the high drain is that you are not only dead (or close to), but have no services as well.

Still, if the odds are either you are 100% dead (or your friends are) or you hail-mary a F12 then who wouldn't go with the odds.

So, I would expect that from non-professionals confronted with lethal force. No discussion here.

I am trying to look at the problem from the point of view of, say a military adviser writing a recommendation on how to proceed in such a situation. Realistically speaking however, if you know you are being attacked and it is forseeable that you will drastically lose, than in many cases even a F12 will not help much, because they do not have AoE. Also, we always ruled that spirits will likely stop their mission, when their master dies. (Is there an official rule for that?). So killing the summoner is the highest priority and probable much easier that getting rid of the spirit.

[Jhaiisiin]

We have always run it that if your character is the kind of person who uses spirits as fodder, then they break free the first moment they get the chance (you go unconscious, there's a flaw in the services request, etc etc). If you've been treating those spirits more as equals, word gets around in the spirit world, and they're willing to finish up the tasks you assign, or even defend your unconscious form until their time runs out.

That said, if I were a shadowrunner mage, and I had options of X and dead, or Y and not dead, I'd always choose Y unless I had no choice. Players don't play that way as a rule. Instead, they go "Sure, I might die, but odds are I won't, so here goes!" If it turns out their character gets brainfried as a result of the spell or summoning, they can just go "Eh, oh well. New character." People don't get that choice in life. So to say that people would usually or always go with the "Might die" option is a little disingenuous.

But then again, no one said that Shadowrunners were stable, balanced, rational people.

[Tymeaus Jalynsfe...]

TJ Fallacy

(IMG:style_emoticons/default/nyahnyah.gif)

Damn, Did it again. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/frown.gif)

[Tymeaus Jalynsfe...]

Summoned? you mean bind?

No, I mean Summoned. Spirits resist Summoning at our table (if they are Force 4+), just as they resist Binding.
So Summoning a Force 5 Spirit is 10 Dice Exploding, Binding a Force 5 Spirit is 15 Dice Expoloding. Not many mages are willing to casually summon high force spirits when they spend Edge to resist. And totally within the rules, too. *shrug*

[Tymeaus Jalynsfe...]

You had a F5 spirit use edge to resist summoning? Wow, that's probably the lowest Force by far where I've seen a spirit use edge.

Indeed... Force 4+ at our table Elfenlied. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)

[Tymeaus Jalynsfe...]

The problem with the high drain is that you are not only dead (or close to), but have no services as well.

Still, if the odds are either you are 100% dead (or your friends are) or you hail-mary a F12 then who wouldn't go with the odds.

So, I would expect that from non-professionals confronted with lethal force. No discussion here.

The Mages I play would NEVER (ever, ever, ever) attempt to summon a Force 12 God. That is just stupid.

[Shinobi Killfist]

We have always run it that if your character is the kind of person who uses spirits as fodder, then they break free the first moment they get the chance (you go unconscious, there's a flaw in the services request, etc etc). If you've been treating those spirits more as equals, word gets around in the spirit world, and they're willing to finish up the tasks you assign, or even defend your unconscious form until their time runs out.

That said, if I were a shadowrunner mage, and I had options of X and dead, or Y and not dead, I'd always choose Y unless I had no choice. Players don't play that way as a rule. Instead, they go "Sure, I might die, but odds are I won't, so here goes!" If it turns out their character gets brainfried as a result of the spell or summoning, they can just go "Eh, oh well. New character." People don't get that choice in life. So to say that people would usually or always go with the "Might die" option is a little disingenuous.

But then again, no one said that Shadowrunners were stable, balanced, rational people.

If I could summon spirits I'd be eating drain daily. If my life depended on the strength of spirit I summoned I'd be eating a lot of drain every day for breakfast and diner. I actually think it is a roleplaying decision to summon powerful spirits. While playing it safe is also a valid roleplaying choice I don't think it is the logical one or the one most people would take.

[Jhaiisiin]

Playing it safe is not the same as choosing to never take drain. My point was that I wouldn't risk lethal drain on a regular basis. That's playing magical russian roulette.