SR 5: What's next for the supplements? Options

[Shortstraw]

While I am generally not a large fan of infected characters (at creation) having the rules there are good for when players become infected during play.

[tasti man LH]

Shadowrun just doesn't work well as the game where everybody is a vampire (or werewolf, ghost, mummy, faerie, etc) slowly losing their humanity. That game has been done just fine by someone else (and I enjoy some of those games for what they are), Shadowrun should be about Shadowrunners and their universe (even when playing a DocWagon campaign it is in the universe where other people go on Shadowruns).

...says you.

I currently have a group that would like nothing to more then to have a game where they are all changelings, shapeshifters, or free spirits because they have found those entities to be cool and want to play them (to the point that they consider the core metatypes to be "too boring"). While it's something I personally am not thrilled with, I have no right to tell them that they are objectively wrong for wanting to play something they think is awesome.

After all, isn't the whole point of TRPGs is to play as something you think is cool?

And, again, your SR is not my SR, so don't tell me how my SR should be.

[ElFenrir]

I just want to have my Bear shifter back. I'll have to rebuild him(he was a Mystic Adept, though he followed Oak so I'd have to likely fudge around with spirits-or just port Oak over somehow and figure an adept power that fits-I'd guess Mystic Armor), but I'd love to try him in SR5. I have a couple of NPCs that use the changeling rules, but they're NPCs and so I can just keep them as is from SR4 or whatnot(they aren't antagonists, nor to they actively fight with PCs, they're street legends who 'hang out.')

And yes, different games are different. I like to have the options, and then choose to use or not use them in each individual game. I know the errata is coming in any case before the book comes out so I'm not too worried about that. Actually, this could be a time they could fix drakes up a bit-they seemed to get the shorter end of the stick in the last supplement. I'd rather have options that lots of people can use because I know not everyone plays the same game. I DO want an Arsenal book though, don't get me wrong, and definitely an Augmentation book and a Magic book and all of that, though for now I feel comfortable *enough* doing some transfers on my own with some of the weapons, particularly the bladed ones(Cougar Fineblades almost seem to have turned into the new Combat Knife, a Katar would likely function at the same big AP rating as one, etc.)

[RHat]

I'm not asking for them to be in-game, I'm just saying that should stay in the limelight. It is hardly the hardcore reboot that 4th edition was in general.

Shadowrun just doesn't work well as the game where everybody is a vampire (or werewolf, ghost, mummy, faerie, etc) slowly losing their humanity. That game has been done just fine by someone else (and I enjoy some of those games for what they are), Shadowrun should be about Shadowrunners and their universe (even when playing a DocWagon campaign it is in the universe where other people go on Shadowruns).

But there's absolutely room in the team for a more "out there" character or two. Especially since things like shapeshifts, non-metahuman sapients, metasapient AI's, and so one would be inevitably drawn towards the shadows due to their questionable legal status - they ARE part of the Shadowrunning universe.

[Korwin]

Give me my beloved Metavarants, Infected, AIs, Free Spirits, Changelings, Drakes, Shapeshifters, and Non-Metahuman Sapients please!

Also, please make sure I can at least potentially make such characters Missions legal! And include varied enough Metegenetic Qualities that I can make a "T'skrang" style changeling without almost breaking the rules please!

~Umi

If they did them better than in 4e, it might be a reason to buy an 5e book.

what I want is Berlin given the Seattle 2072 treatment.

There is an current Berlin book, it would need to get translated...

[Smash]

If they did them better than in 4e, it might be a reason to buy an 5e book.

If by better you mean not hideously overpowered and broken, then absolutely.

I feel most people want these options for the ridiculous stat bonuses, weapon immunity and OP regeneration. If adding these concepts to 5th they make them in a way that the only benefit is flavor or the cost of the above was actually balanced (I don't think this can be done) I'd welcome them but I feel that most would lose interest.

[Korwin]

If by better you mean not hideously overpowered and broken, then absolutely.

I feel most people want these options for the ridiculous stat bonuses, weapon immunity and OP regeneration. If adding these concepts to 5th they make them in a way that the only benefit is flavor or the cost of the above was actually balanced (I don't think this can be done) I'd welcome them but I feel that most would lose interest.

Ah no, quite the opposite.
Free Spirits are soo subpar to spirit allies (even if you dont count the mage) its not funny.

[Sengir]

Nanites aren't gonna be a thing anymore, from what the community has been able to gather - and that's gonna have a serious impact on the Augmentation equivalent book, because that means no more nanosurgery.

Easy: Nanites inside a hermetically sealed room (like, an operating theatre) work fine, only when they get exposed to whatever is making the rounds outside things start going south.

[Umidori]

I feel most people want these options for the ridiculous stat bonuses, weapon immunity and OP regeneration.

Ah no, quite the opposite.
Free Spirits are soo subpar to spirit allies (even if you dont count the mage) its not funny.

Free Spirits in 4E were pretty weak, even with their ItNW.

Infected with Regeneration in 4E were not only monstrously expensive, which meant they started out incredibly weak and only caught up after a substantial period of time, but Regeneration was also not all that overpowering unless you expressly built for it, which was especially difficult given the fact you just spent all your BP buying the Infected quality, so now you're a one-trick pony and glass cannon. Shapeshifters were better value than the Infected, but still, their Regeneration was nearly as limited.

As for stat bonuses? Most of the non-standard characters types paid heavy BP costs for any stat bonuses they received. Of them, Ghouls were probably the best bang for your buck, but they didn't hold a candle to the sheer overpowered pricing of Orks and their stats.

~Umi

[Larsine]

Well Riggers are traditionally screwed like that... Ok id say sure let the riggers have their toys first but i don't need a cyberware, magic, gun, or matrix book out of the gate.

Riggers have always been screwed, but we all kno what happens once Rigger 5 i published.

[Isath]

It's like an automated reaction to punchlines. "Uh, oh, Regeneration... darn it's OP!!!" well it's not. Regeneration is nice and adds some flavor to certain species, but it still leaves you far from unstoppable and can also (in most cases) be cancled out completely). No problem for Mages in the first place and if you are mudane... damn, punch that vamp with a stick (maybe a combat staff or a bo-ken... a broom... or well... a stick). Those Characters are potentially powerful, but they are also potentially weak, especially right out of the door.

Riggers have always been screwed, but we all kno what happens once Rigger 5 i published.

That should be right before the SR 6 release, should't it? (IMG:style_emoticons/default/wink.gif)

[Mäx]

It's like an automated reaction to punchlines. "Uh, oh, Regeneration... darn it's OP!!!" well it's not. Regeneration is nice and adds some flavor to certain species, but it still leaves you far from unstoppable and can also (in most cases) be cancled out completely). No problem for Mages in the first place and if you are mudane... damn, punch that vamp with a stick (maybe a combat staff or a bo-ken... a broom... or well... a stick).

Or just unload a full clip of Wooden Sliver rounds on it, that should ruin its day quite well (IMG:style_emoticons/default/cool.gif)

[Doc Chaos]

Compared to SR5 Regeneration SR4 Regen. does seem kind of tame. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/wink.gif)

[Korwin]

Well its better than 4e Regen, but not so badly overpowered as the 3e Regen.

[Tymeaus Jalynsfe...]

Huh, on one hand I'm not fond of retcon (see Cyberdecks) but on the other hand, Nanite stuff WAS pretty in-game annoying that I can understand why they'd want to get rid of it. It was one of those things that lacked a nonspecific or multi-layered defense that the only real way to fight nanostuff was investing in nanostuff yourself.

Why was Nanotech Annoying (we never saw it as such), it has been present for most of the history of Shadowrun, in one form or another (the above mentioned nanosurgery, for instance)?

The only way to really fight Mages is to have a Mage yourself...
The only way to fight a Decker is to have one yourself...
I could go on...

[Patrick Goodman]

I really am quite interested in hearing about how people react to some of the changes in SR5 critter powers. I was, honestly, expecting more of a hue and cry on the subject. Not that I'm complaining about the relative lack of savage attacks, but sometimes one needs feedback.

[Tymeaus Jalynsfe...]

The game is unbearable without shifters.

Not so much... In the 20+ years of Shadowrun, I have seen exactly ONE shifter in play. I have made one or two just to evaluate them, but would never actually play them. They are nice for fluff (or a novel), but not for playing, in my opinion.

Same goes with MOST of the optional characters (Infected, AI, Spirit, Critter). The Metatype variants, and Changelings, see much more play than any other option, and even then, they still make up a vast minority in our games.

[Shortstraw]

My apologies you appear to have missed the pun - the game is unBEARable without shifters.

[Sendaz]

Wonder if he feels sheepish? (IMG:style_emoticons/default/nyahnyah.gif)


What? WereSheep are a recognized shifter in Wales & Scotland!

[Tymeaus Jalynsfe...]

My apologies you appear to have missed the pun - the game is unBEARable without shifters.

Indeed I did. My Mistake. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)

[Tzeentch]

I really am quite interested in hearing about how people react to some of the changes in SR5 critter powers. I was, honestly, expecting more of a hue and cry on the subject. Not that I'm complaining about the relative lack of savage attacks, but sometimes one needs feedback.

Aside from Movement, none of them look that amazing or broken. I admit I haven't gone over them all with a super duper fine toothed comb (and I am mostly familiar with the SR3 implementation).

Indeed, the substantial (largely indirect) nerf to Immunity to Normal Weapons actually removes my main argument against things like Free Spirits as PCs.

[Isath]

Movemt always was quite powerful.

As for critterpowers in general, i did not see any change that would be worth crying about. It generally strikes me as odd, that the olfactory booster is so very much better than the enhanced sense (smell) of critters (by a factor of 3), but that also is no news.

[Umidori]

I'd like to also echo the above sentiment regarding Critter Powers, they don't seem all that different than SR4 except that they seem to operate more cleanly and are more precisely worded.

One quirk I've noted is that Hardened Armor doesn't resolve ties between the DV of the attack and the Hardened Armor value. If the DV is less than the armor, the attack fails. If the DV is greater than the armor, roll to resist (with the bonus Armor and automatic hits). But what do we do if the DV matches the armor?

I have noticed that the wording for Dietary Requirement has changed, becoming very vague. Whereas before it was 5% of the critter body weight per week, now it's listed as "Unless specified in the critter’s description, it needs at least one meal per day, appropriate to its size and metabolism." That's a lot more finicky, and I can see some epic arguments coming about because of that wording.

Out of curiosity, I looked at the Critter listings for Ghouls and Vampires. Neither have any special specification in their description, so I can only assume that means they need to feed at least once daily. Which raises the question for them - what size meal is "appropriate to (their) size and metabolism"? Does a vampire need to do a classic metahuman neck-bite feeding once a day, or can he get away with nothing more than a literal cup of Joe in the evening? Alternatively, could a vampire wake up and maybe have a tall, refreshing glass of goat's blood to start their day, and maybe only drink actual Metahuman blood once or twice a week?

Once I run the numbers, it doesn't seem that bad, actually. Let's assume a vampire of 180 pounds. At the old 5% weight per week rate, that's 9 pounds of blood per week, or roughly 9 pints, 4.5 quarts, or 1.125 gallons of blood. If every day you drank a small pint-sized milk carton full of blood, that plus a few nightcaps here and there accounts for 9 pints easy, and it matches up pretty nicely with the newer, less specific ruling. A ghoul likewise has to eat 9 pounds of meat, which is about an arm's worth (slightly more, once you account for Ghouls being unable to eat bones). A one pound "steak" each day seems perfectly reasonable.

Oh, and the new Essence Loss by Power Usage? That's harsh, man. I sure hope that Infected will be cheaper to "buy" at chargen when they're released in 5E, because in 4E the extreme BP costs made it so that you relied on your powers to even just survive long enough to catch up with normal characters in terms of viability. Now, if you use Fear on four different guards in a run, you lose an entire point of Essence! What the flying fig!

~Umi

[Patrick Goodman]

I'd like to also echo the above sentiment regarding Critter Powers, they don't seem all that different than SR4 except that they seem to operate more cleanly and are more precisely worded.

That was mostly the goal.

One quirk I've noted is that Hardened Armor doesn't resolve ties between the DV of the attack and the Hardened Armor value. If the DV is less than the armor, the attack fails. If the DV is greater than the armor, roll to resist (with the bonus Armor and automatic hits). But what do we do if the DV matches the armor?

Yeah, that's my fault. The author's intent was for the tie to go to the defender (if adjusted DV is less than or equal to the Hardened Armor rating, the attack fails). This has been submitted as errata.

I have noticed that the wording for Dietary Requirement has changed, becoming very vague. Whereas before it was 5% of the critter body weight per week, now it's listed as "Unless specified in the critter’s description, it needs at least one meal per day, appropriate to its size and metabolism." That's a lot more finicky, and I can see some epic arguments coming about because of that wording.

That one wasn't my fault, though. It was changed in editing, in order to avoid some of the wrangling you're foreseeing. We'll see how it works out.

Out of curiosity, I looked at the Critter listings for Ghouls and Vampires. Neither have any special specification in their description, so I can only assume that means they need to feed at least once daily.

Yep. Neither of them has to spend all day/night gorging in order to survive.

Which raises the question for them - what size meal is "appropriate to (their) size and metabolism"? Does a vampire need to do a classic metahuman neck-bite feeding once a day, or can he get away with nothing more than a literal cup of Joe in the evening? Alternatively, could a vampire wake up and maybe have a tall, refreshing glass of goat's blood to start their day, and maybe only drink actual Metahuman blood once or twice a week?

Vampires can survive on donated blood stolen/purchased from hospitals or blood banks. As you noted in your breakdown, about a pint and a half a night, or two of the Dr Peppers I've knocked off since this morning, is enough to satisfy the Dietary Requirement weakness. Will it give you all the calories you need to do your thing all day? Not even close, but that's been handwaved away for decades in the popular media. Magic helps keep them going.

Ghoul feedings are pretty equivalent. I think I calculated once that it was about two decent-sized cheeseburgers worth a day. Ghouls at least can eat other raw meat; only a portion of it has to be metahuman flesh. Vampires, as noted above, have other issues, but I carry on the fine tradition of ignoring that.

That's how I would run it. I think part of the reasoning behind the wording was to give the GM a little more fine control over what constituted enough at his table.

Oh, and the new Essence Loss by Power Usage? That's harsh, man. I sure hope that Infected will be cheaper to "buy" at chargen when they're released in 5E, because in 4E the extreme BP costs made it so that you relied on your powers to even just survive long enough to catch up with normal characters in terms of viability. Now, if you use Fear on four different guards in a run, you lose an entire point of Essence! What the flying fig!

Life's hard in the big city. I made Essence Drain a bit more useful, if that helps you at all. But I think you know where I stand in terms of Infected PCs. We'll still have them, but iI don't see it being any easier out of the gate. I don't know how that's all gonna shake out just yet, because I haven't written all of those rules yet.

Yeah, it's harsh. It was meant to be. I made some things easier, but some things...not so much.

[ElFenrir]

I just hope Shapeshifters are still decent PCs. I *loved* how they were fixed in 4e, so it'll be a matter of seeing the new stuff to see if I'm using the new ones or just keeping on using the old ones. (I don't even care that Regeneration was nerfed, I thought stats were handled much, much better in 4e than 2 or 3e with the 'two sets of attributes' nonsense.) I'd like to see Drakes get a little extra love from 4e, however-they didn't quite shake out as well.