So, having moved to a new edition, what are the intended supplements for this new version?

Original stuff, or the "Yeah, take Arsenal and Augmentation and basically update the stats. For full price." and "Hm, we should probably do Runner Companion with Advanced Lifestyles again"? If there is going to be "Arsenal" and "augmentation" and related again, what is going to be different in them other than mechanics, than their SR4 stuff?

So far, from what I've seen through the SR5 'main book', its a good starting point if you've never played the setting. But at the same time, in comparison to the previous book, it seems to be missing the equivalent of a "History Lesson for the Reality Impaired". There's some fluff of the timeline, and I can see the benefit if you ARE a new player to the system entirely, it doesn't load you down with the weight of the 25 years (in-game) before it.

Will there be a section in the next 'unwired' equivalent book that explains why (in-setting) you went from Commlinks are the new Cyberdecks, to yeah, all the stuff commlinks did before...they can't do now, and you need cyberdecks that are basically...100x more expensive.

Is Clockwork finally going to get his ticket punched? Heh, will Dragons stop being such big Mary Sues?

Supposedly, Run Faster (the Runner's Companion equivalent) is first on the schedule, and the corebook at least references Data Trails, the Matrix book. The Extended Core would have to further include a Magic book, a 'ware book, a gear book, and ideally a rigger book.

And the whole reintroduction of decks has been explained, though I'm not sure if the explanation made the book - basically, the nature of the Matrix has changed, and the security is a lot more intensive. Dealing with that security requires a more powerful device. It's less about commlinks not doing what they used to, and more about what they're doing not being close to good enough anymore.

the need for cyberdecks has actually been explained in far more detail than most other parts of history. which isn't to say it's got a lot devoted to it... the great ghost dance, for example, is something that gets mentioned once in a single sentence, with no context and no explanation what it is (heck, iirc they didn't even call it the *great* ghost dance).

but in any event, it's been explained if you read the core book. new matrix protocols were introduced specifically to make it so that a regular commlink wouldn't be able to hack.

http://www.shadowruntabletop.com/products/upcoming-products/ mentions:
Splintered State (Adventure)
Stolen Souls (Deep Shadows)
Introductory Box Set
Shadowrun: Crossfire (A Deck Building Game)
Run And Gun (Core Rulebook)
Runner’s Toolkit, Fifth Edition (Box Set)

In addition they mention Data Trails (Decking rulebook) in the core rulebook, and Run Faster (Runner's Companion) has been mentioned somewhere.

Was sort of hoping to see the Sixth World Cookbook with recipes from around the world, including the CAS favourite Behemoth Gumbo (feeds 200!), but rumour has it has gone on the back burner for the time being.

Give me my beloved Metavarants, Infected, AIs, Free Spirits, Changelings, Drakes, Shapeshifters, and Non-Metahuman Sapients please!

Also, please make sure I can at least potentially make such characters Missions legal! And include varied enough Metegenetic Qualities that I can make a "T'skrang" style changeling without almost breaking the rules please!

~Umi

No infected, AI, free spirit, or drake PCs please.

I can get behind pixies, lizardmen, and rock dudes though. But let's face it - not gonna happen.

Most important part of the RC equivalent will be BP and Karma generation.

Dear God why?!?! Specifically - Run And Gun (Core Rulebook) & Runner’s Toolkit, Fifth Edition (Box Set). These things are nice but what I want is Berlin given the Seattle 2072 treatment. It should be Core Book + Setting Book + Adventure right out the door so people can start their campaigns up, extra rules and options should trickle out later, if for no other reason to allow it to be playtested enough that the optional rules become fixes.



I'll concede this point for 4e players but you can release a ref doc and put it in a book later.

Nah, we need the other core books as fast as possible.
Currently there are quite a limited amount of options available and for example drone riggers are practically unplayable without modding rules.

Hey, if you don't want it in your games, don't allow it - but that doesn't mean it should be barred from people that DO just because you don't like it.

We're actually having a long talk about Berlin at the moment. I'm not sure where it stands since I personally don't much care, but it is being talked about.

To that I'd say just because you like it doesn't mean it should be included. I'd rather they work on stuff missing at this point. Then worry about expanded character options.

Which is essentially an argument that they should delay the Companion in general. But I'm rather curious as to what your definition of "stuff missing" is - because the expanded character options would qualify as "missing".

Errata for the core book. Autosofts, etc.


Then stuff to spend karma on outside of skills (granted, this is really only for awakened folks).

Then stuff to spend money on - more cyber, biotech, toys.

Then maybe the fringe races/SURGE/alternate stuff like infected, shapeshifters etc.

So... Basically, errata (including accidental omissions) and the extended core less one set of elements you don't much like?

Well Riggers are traditionally screwed like that... Ok id say sure let the riggers have their toys first but i don't need a cyberware, magic, gun, or matrix book out of the gate.

Ordinary gear like guns, armor, mods for each, and general "Runner Toys" would be very low priority for me.

Slightly less low priority would be advanced gear and rules for already operable archetypes - new magic for mages, powers for adepts, martial arts for whoever, "new" cyberware for sammies (Move-By-Wire and the like), et cetera.

Above that I'd put Setting or Campaign materials, because while they're nice, they're definitely not essential in a game that already requires so much imagination and invention to play.

High priority would go to gear and rules for currently underserved archetypes, like Rigger goodies and possibly expanded Hacking, Decking, and Technomancy.

~Umi

Yeah honestly for me, especially since the in game calendar is only what...a year or two...more than the previous edition, I'd be happier with a freebie-pdf or community post of "How to convert guns from Arsenal SR4 to SR5 mechanics" rather than an actual book that does that with essentially another 20 pages of 'new story' that they like to do between sections. Similiarly for Augmentation stuff, unless there is some quantum leap of new stuff, tho with cyber/bio/genetic engineering and nanites, I dunno what that it could be, I'd prefer to have a forum posting on how to rejigger those things into SR5 mechanics.

Maybe ruleset to create RIFTS setting type Juicers or something? That'd be fun. But I already see that as a form of Nanite tech + Chems.

Nanites aren't gonna be a thing anymore, from what the community has been able to gather - and that's gonna have a serious impact on the Augmentation equivalent book, because that means no more nanosurgery.

To which I respond, if you want it IN your game. Homerule it. Not every "Fringe" thing needs a big section of rules and to take up game space. Back in my SR1 days there was another group where they all played Vampires even though their were no rules to make characters that way.

Original Shadowrun was a lot about humanity, which was why you weren't generally allowed to play characters that didn't have the base template of having been human (AIs, Spirits, Pixies, etc) or characters that had gone so far that humanity was no prey for them (Infected). In my own games the infected are strictly villains and your PC becoming ones means they are essentially rabid and turn into a NPC character. Every time there is a big section of rules I have to tell my players to ignore (any rules for any reason) it annoys both me the GM and the players. I really think these kinds of options are better off as an ebook option than in a core book.

Huh, on one hand I'm not fond of retcon (see Cyberdecks) but on the other hand, Nanite stuff WAS pretty in-game annoying that I can understand why they'd want to get rid of it. It was one of those things that lacked a nonspecific or multi-layered defense that the only real way to fight nanostuff was investing in nanostuff yourself.

The game is unbearable without shifters.

Difference is, now that it's been in you're asking for it to be removed. And the Companion book is all about expanding options - Runner's Companion would be pretty short without the alternative concepts section.

And, from another angle - having those options in there means that it will sell more.



Cyberdecks do not involve a retcon. There are cogent, in-world reasons for their return.

I'm not asking for them to be in-game, I'm just saying that should stay in the limelight. It is hardly the hardcore reboot that 4th edition was in general.

Shadowrun just doesn't work well as the game where everybody is a vampire (or werewolf, ghost, mummy, faerie, etc) slowly losing their humanity. That game has been done just fine by someone else (and I enjoy some of those games for what they are), Shadowrun should be about Shadowrunners and their universe (even when playing a DocWagon campaign it is in the universe where other people go on Shadowruns).

While I am generally not a large fan of infected characters (at creation) having the rules there are good for when players become infected during play.

...says you.

I currently have a group that would like nothing to more then to have a game where they are all changelings, shapeshifters, or free spirits because they have found those entities to be cool and want to play them (to the point that they consider the core metatypes to be "too boring"). While it's something I personally am not thrilled with, I have no right to tell them that they are objectively wrong for wanting to play something they think is awesome.

After all, isn't the whole point of TRPGs is to play as something you think is cool?

And, again, your SR is not my SR, so don't tell me how my SR should be.

I just want to have my Bear shifter back. I'll have to rebuild him(he was a Mystic Adept, though he followed Oak so I'd have to likely fudge around with spirits-or just port Oak over somehow and figure an adept power that fits-I'd guess Mystic Armor), but I'd love to try him in SR5. I have a couple of NPCs that use the changeling rules, but they're NPCs and so I can just keep them as is from SR4 or whatnot(they aren't antagonists, nor to they actively fight with PCs, they're street legends who 'hang out.')

And yes, different games are different. I like to have the options, and then choose to use or not use them in each individual game. I know the errata is coming in any case before the book comes out so I'm not too worried about that. Actually, this could be a time they could fix drakes up a bit-they seemed to get the shorter end of the stick in the last supplement. I'd rather have options that lots of people can use because I know not everyone plays the same game. I DO want an Arsenal book though, don't get me wrong, and definitely an Augmentation book and a Magic book and all of that, though for now I feel comfortable *enough* doing some transfers on my own with some of the weapons, particularly the bladed ones(Cougar Fineblades almost seem to have turned into the new Combat Knife, a Katar would likely function at the same big AP rating as one, etc.)

But there's absolutely room in the team for a more "out there" character or two. Especially since things like shapeshifts, non-metahuman sapients, metasapient AI's, and so one would be inevitably drawn towards the shadows due to their questionable legal status - they ARE part of the Shadowrunning universe.

If they did them better than in 4e, it might be a reason to buy an 5e book.



There is an current Berlin book, it would need to get translated...

If by better you mean not hideously overpowered and broken, then absolutely.

I feel most people want these options for the ridiculous stat bonuses, weapon immunity and OP regeneration. If adding these concepts to 5th they make them in a way that the only benefit is flavor or the cost of the above was actually balanced (I don't think this can be done) I'd welcome them but I feel that most would lose interest.

Ah no, quite the opposite.
Free Spirits are soo subpar to spirit allies (even if you dont count the mage) its not funny.

Easy: Nanites inside a hermetically sealed room (like, an operating theatre) work fine, only when they get exposed to whatever is making the rounds outside things start going south.

Free Spirits in 4E were pretty weak, even with their ItNW.

Infected with Regeneration in 4E were not only monstrously expensive, which meant they started out incredibly weak and only caught up after a substantial period of time, but Regeneration was also not all that overpowering unless you expressly built for it, which was especially difficult given the fact you just spent all your BP buying the Infected quality, so now you're a one-trick pony and glass cannon. Shapeshifters were better value than the Infected, but still, their Regeneration was nearly as limited.

As for stat bonuses? Most of the non-standard characters types paid heavy BP costs for any stat bonuses they received. Of them, Ghouls were probably the best bang for your buck, but they didn't hold a candle to the sheer overpowered pricing of Orks and their stats.

~Umi

Riggers have always been screwed, but we all kno what happens once Rigger 5 i published.

It's like an automated reaction to punchlines. "Uh, oh, Regeneration... darn it's OP!!!" well it's not. Regeneration is nice and adds some flavor to certain species, but it still leaves you far from unstoppable and can also (in most cases) be cancled out completely). No problem for Mages in the first place and if you are mudane... damn, punch that vamp with a stick (maybe a combat staff or a bo-ken... a broom... or well... a stick). Those Characters are potentially powerful, but they are also potentially weak, especially right out of the door.




That should be right before the SR 6 release, should't it?

Or just unload a full clip of Wooden Sliver rounds on it, that should ruin its day quite well

Compared to SR5 Regeneration SR4 Regen. does seem kind of tame.

Well its better than 4e Regen, but not so badly overpowered as the 3e Regen.

Why was Nanotech Annoying (we never saw it as such), it has been present for most of the history of Shadowrun, in one form or another (the above mentioned nanosurgery, for instance)?

The only way to really fight Mages is to have a Mage yourself...
The only way to fight a Decker is to have one yourself...
I could go on...

I really am quite interested in hearing about how people react to some of the changes in SR5 critter powers. I was, honestly, expecting more of a hue and cry on the subject. Not that I'm complaining about the relative lack of savage attacks, but sometimes one needs feedback.

Not so much... In the 20+ years of Shadowrun, I have seen exactly ONE shifter in play. I have made one or two just to evaluate them, but would never actually play them. They are nice for fluff (or a novel), but not for playing, in my opinion.

Same goes with MOST of the optional characters (Infected, AI, Spirit, Critter). The Metatype variants, and Changelings, see much more play than any other option, and even then, they still make up a vast minority in our games.

My apologies you appear to have missed the pun - the game is unBEARable without shifters.

Wonder if he feels sheepish?


What? WereSheep are a recognized shifter in Wales & Scotland!

Indeed I did. My Mistake.

Aside from Movement, none of them look that amazing or broken. I admit I haven't gone over them all with a super duper fine toothed comb (and I am mostly familiar with the SR3 implementation).

Indeed, the substantial (largely indirect) nerf to Immunity to Normal Weapons actually removes my main argument against things like Free Spirits as PCs.

Movemt always was quite powerful.

As for critterpowers in general, i did not see any change that would be worth crying about. It generally strikes me as odd, that the olfactory booster is so very much better than the enhanced sense (smell) of critters (by a factor of 3), but that also is no news.

I'd like to also echo the above sentiment regarding Critter Powers, they don't seem all that different than SR4 except that they seem to operate more cleanly and are more precisely worded.

One quirk I've noted is that Hardened Armor doesn't resolve ties between the DV of the attack and the Hardened Armor value. If the DV is less than the armor, the attack fails. If the DV is greater than the armor, roll to resist (with the bonus Armor and automatic hits). But what do we do if the DV matches the armor?

I have noticed that the wording for Dietary Requirement has changed, becoming very vague. Whereas before it was 5% of the critter body weight per week, now it's listed as "Unless specified in the critter’s description, it needs at least one meal per day, appropriate to its size and metabolism." That's a lot more finicky, and I can see some epic arguments coming about because of that wording.

Out of curiosity, I looked at the Critter listings for Ghouls and Vampires. Neither have any special specification in their description, so I can only assume that means they need to feed at least once daily. Which raises the question for them - what size meal is "appropriate to (their) size and metabolism"? Does a vampire need to do a classic metahuman neck-bite feeding once a day, or can he get away with nothing more than a literal cup of Joe in the evening? Alternatively, could a vampire wake up and maybe have a tall, refreshing glass of goat's blood to start their day, and maybe only drink actual Metahuman blood once or twice a week?

Once I run the numbers, it doesn't seem that bad, actually. Let's assume a vampire of 180 pounds. At the old 5% weight per week rate, that's 9 pounds of blood per week, or roughly 9 pints, 4.5 quarts, or 1.125 gallons of blood. If every day you drank a small pint-sized milk carton full of blood, that plus a few nightcaps here and there accounts for 9 pints easy, and it matches up pretty nicely with the newer, less specific ruling. A ghoul likewise has to eat 9 pounds of meat, which is about an arm's worth (slightly more, once you account for Ghouls being unable to eat bones). A one pound "steak" each day seems perfectly reasonable.

Oh, and the new Essence Loss by Power Usage? That's harsh, man. I sure hope that Infected will be cheaper to "buy" at chargen when they're released in 5E, because in 4E the extreme BP costs made it so that you relied on your powers to even just survive long enough to catch up with normal characters in terms of viability. Now, if you use Fear on four different guards in a run, you lose an entire point of Essence! What the flying fig!

~Umi

That was mostly the goal.

Yeah, that's my fault. The author's intent was for the tie to go to the defender (if adjusted DV is less than or equal to the Hardened Armor rating, the attack fails). This has been submitted as errata.

That one wasn't my fault, though. It was changed in editing, in order to avoid some of the wrangling you're foreseeing. We'll see how it works out.

Yep. Neither of them has to spend all day/night gorging in order to survive.

Vampires can survive on donated blood stolen/purchased from hospitals or blood banks. As you noted in your breakdown, about a pint and a half a night, or two of the Dr Peppers I've knocked off since this morning, is enough to satisfy the Dietary Requirement weakness. Will it give you all the calories you need to do your thing all day? Not even close, but that's been handwaved away for decades in the popular media. Magic helps keep them going.

Ghoul feedings are pretty equivalent. I think I calculated once that it was about two decent-sized cheeseburgers worth a day. Ghouls at least can eat other raw meat; only a portion of it has to be metahuman flesh. Vampires, as noted above, have other issues, but I carry on the fine tradition of ignoring that.

That's how I would run it. I think part of the reasoning behind the wording was to give the GM a little more fine control over what constituted enough at his table.

Life's hard in the big city. I made Essence Drain a bit more useful, if that helps you at all. But I think you know where I stand in terms of Infected PCs. We'll still have them, but iI don't see it being any easier out of the gate. I don't know how that's all gonna shake out just yet, because I haven't written all of those rules yet.

Yeah, it's harsh. It was meant to be. I made some things easier, but some things...not so much.

I just hope Shapeshifters are still decent PCs. I *loved* how they were fixed in 4e, so it'll be a matter of seeing the new stuff to see if I'm using the new ones or just keeping on using the old ones. (I don't even care that Regeneration was nerfed, I thought stats were handled much, much better in 4e than 2 or 3e with the 'two sets of attributes' nonsense.) I'd like to see Drakes get a little extra love from 4e, however-they didn't quite shake out as well.