Weren't shifters boned by the whole dual-natured thing?

Allways have been, but you can arrange with that... also it depends on the game you are in.

Well, being Infected is supposed to be starting to suck a lot more per Storm Front.

Which is why I expect my backstock in Total Eclipse™ SPF 350 Sunscreen will be a hot item for the night inclined crew for those awkward daylight dramas.

And some new novels/fiction that makes use of the new setting...!?!?

Yep, if you correlate the rule with the old rules it makes perfect sense. But if the rule stands alone (as it should in a new edition) things are really muddy. "One meal a day, totaling no less than 5 % of body weight per week" would have been far clearer. BTW, shouldn't "unless specified in the critter’s description, it needs..." read "unless specified otherwise..."?


@TJ (and my favorite hate topic)

Nanotech in the meaning of "tiny spider robots defying all laws of physics by their very existence" were introduced in Man & Machine, explained as a radical advancement only made possible by Deus, and had fairly obscene street availability. Since then it has gotten worse and evolved into "anything, anytime, anywhere".
The only description I am aware of before Deus was in Shadowtech, which far closer to how actual nanotech might work: Modified bacteria, molecular self-assembly, proteins, all those forming comparatively simple structures like wires and interconnects.

Why? I read Storm Front once, but can't recall anything on the topic of Infected right now. Did I miss something?

... An entire chapter, yeah. Was pretty light on the detail, but things like their allergy to the sun were getting worse, Regen was rejecting even Deltaware that had been there for some time, their hunger was getting more insistent... Bunch of stuff.

Ooooh, right, Hanibelle, the Ghoul stuff. Now I remember. I need more coffee...

There's sucking, and then there's punishing a character for making use of the abilities that make them inherently different from all other character types.

The net effect is that Infected like Wendigoes that rely heavily on Active Powers are going to be played even more rarely than they were in SR4, while Infected like Ghouls and Vampires that see their benefits mostly in the forms of Attribute bonuses will be all the more attractive. If pricing and attribute bonuses stay roughly the same between editions, Vampire Mages and Ork or Troll Ghoul Adepts are gonna be very powerful and desireable, while even the most dedicated and diehard Infected fans (myself included) will seriously question the viability of playing a Wendigo of any variety, given that we can't use our bread and butter powers of Fear and Influence without rapidly losing a point of Essence - and consequently a point of Magic if it's not below the maximum!

~Umi

On the other hand, in some respects I can understand a reason for wanting to pull things back in, in a way. I'm not condoning it or condemning it, but sometimes when you start getting too diverse and fringed, its more difficult from a GM perspective or 'game theme' perspective to well...figure out a theme. Much less 'balance' a group. The general responsibility of a GM includes making each player feel like they are (through their char) involved in the game. Thankfully, its not as bad as say, RIFTS setting but look at historically its been difficult to engage gameplay for 'decker' type chars, much less when you start adding mutated magical catgirl or somesuch.

Out of all the 'Different' types-Shifters probably have, IMO, the 'easiest' time for a GM, especially since Regeneration, over the years, has been brought down from 'broken' (2e-3e), to 'Very Good'(4e), and now 'Good but definitely not overpowered' (5e.)

Stat Bonuses? Some are quite big but nothing that core races don't already get(read: trolls.) Hell, I always said Bears were overcost; they took a huge Agility hit(the God Combat Stat), where the Big Cat shifters, while they didn't get as big of a Body/Str bonus, got a very nice Agility bonus-I had always wondered why the big cats weren't the most expensive ones. They seem like the overall 'bang for the buck.)

They look human otherwise, they have little things about them(my bear, in his elf form, was taller, more muscular, and while he kept most of his face shaven except for a goatee on his chin, did have more body hair than the typical elf, but in the Sixth World there are probably hairy elves out there), but they don't totally 'stick out'-well, unless it's on the Astral, the dual nature is a pretty decent disadvantage. They can't take 'ware without their body rejecting it. All in all they're not *that* bad. They're different, and not for every game, but arguably them and Drakes I find probably the least 'interruptive.' (the changelings can range from 'Okay, that dude is just...blue, maybe cosmetic surgery?' to 'Holy drek Cthulhu Fred.')

Also, unlike infected, they don't need to *eat people* to survive, which I imagine is a reason why they want to tone them down, or something.

And the pain and pleasure are both for PC and NPC Infected. They're ALL feeling the pain.

I've yet to see a convincing argument why this is a Bad Thing. I've seen a lot of arguments, but I've not seen one that absolutely convinces me that playable Infected were EVER a good idea.

Not really, IMO, but that's just MY opinion.

Pricing's likely to be quite different, but again, I've not really looked at those rules yet, and there's been no discussion on how best to implement them. Discussion isn't going to happen until September at the earliest, because I've got a contract deadline in August and CGL has this little shindig they have to go to in Indy in a little over a week.

I'm slightly shocked at the tremendous surprise people are exhibiting at the current situation, however, since I've been telling people since, oh, the end of 2011 or so that things were going to get rough for Infected, and for even longer that my stance on Infected PCs is not altogether benevolent. I'm not out to bone players of Infected characters, but there's a price to be paid

For your 2nd and 3rd edition Infected and critters with regeneration the powers worked just fine... because they weren't player powers and the GM could abstract them.

They were designed to be NPCs and as such the abstract rules worked, but the problem is when you making things available for PCs there is an expectation that players be balanced. That Magic balances with cyber, balances with... AIs, Infected, and playable critter powers.

Also, the big reveal in a lot of things like Renraku Shutdown or any other villian is incredibly subdued when the players can just go... yeah we got us one of those. Larry is an AI (or whatever) too. There will always be those people who play Great Dragons or a cabal of Nosferatu because they want to, you don't necessarily need rules for it nor does it necessarily help the over game setting to provide rules for every little thing. Sometimes more is less.

Now that's not really a counterargument against the claim that some Infected got boned too hard, is it?

Shadowrun isn't Rifts. It was borderline silly how many even non-Infected metavariants there were (some of which little more than walking Monster Manual-level stereotypes). And then SURGE came along . . .

You could also just use whatever 4e rule exists until its replaced with 5e stuff to... Use 5e for the base then grab your move by wire or ghoul from 4e until its out for 5e. We have done that in the past from 1e to 2e and 2e to 3e. Its only 3e to 4e where conversion was a bit more painful. Personally (and no offense to the authors here) 5e you cant play by RAW yet. You at least have to give dwarves thermo-vision from your 4e books anyway

No, I suppose it's not. And the wording on Essence Loss was changed in editing; I had a specific list of powers that accelerated the problem, but it was replaced by the current wording and I recently lost the battle to get it changed back.

Well, good to know that part isn't your doing.

That said, I really don't see much of the changes really punishing Infected as a whole - but rather punishing certain kinds of Infected that try to be anything other than soul-sucking monsters.

The new Essence Loss thing? If your modus operandi is to pull Essence out of any old opposition you come across, then you can use your powers willy-nilly and just replenish as you go. The Wendigo that shows no mercy, that drains every poor Corp-Sec Guard dry and constantly keeps using the excess Essence to replenish what they lose from Power use, or even just to boost their Magic or Attributes to maximized levels, doesn't suffer at all from these changes - rather, they're encouraged to keep on stealing souls, because that way they always stay at peak Essence.

Meanwhile the Wendigo that clings to their metahumanity, who wrestles with their urges, who goes out of their way to find a willing Renfield and who dines on the least morally offensive source of flesh they can find - maybe a graveyard, maybe cyberization leftovers, but definitely not Tamanous! - they get saddled with the very real threat of not being able to use their powers on a run, of being forced to go back and visit their Renfield every time they use just a few powers because they refuse on moral grounds to simply "refill" their Essence in the field.

Is this really the sort of behavior we want the mechanics to foster? Do we really want more of the Infected to just be ravening murder beasts? And why only the "Special Infected" who have to drain Essence? If this is supposed to be some sort of balancing mechanic for Infect, why not give all the Infected Essence Loss and Drain? Or are Goblins, Banshees, Vampires, Nosferatu, Wendigoes, and Dzoo-Noo-Qua somehow specially problematic compared to the rest?

Could you imagine if street samurai had a similar restriction? Imagine if your 'ware degraded substantially with every use, and that after only a few total uses of any combination of your 'ware, you dropped a point in certain Attributes. Imagine likewise that you also somehow ran the risk of permanently losing karma (mirroring how if the Infected's Essence drops below their current Magic, they lose a point of Magic permanently). Now imagine if this degredation could be reversed mid-run by taking a few minutes to cannibalize the 'ware of your defeated foes. How many Street Sams do you think would stoop to recycling their enemies, rather than waiting until after the run to go repair or replace their degraded goods?

Now, as you said Patrick, this specific problem isn't your fault, and you even actively fought against it. For that, I am grateful. But until such time as this gets changed to a more sensible wording, could you perhaps do us a favor and supply your list of specific powers?

~Umi

Agreed.

I have no idea how some people can even justify playing things like Wendigos. If you're playing a city based campaign (90% of them?) then to me it would be like:
Player - "I leave my hole in the barrens" GM - "Everyone shoots you"
Player - "I get out of the car and......" GM - "Everyone shoots you"
Player - "Everyone shoots me" GM - "Everyone shoots you"

No doubt the player is a mage and has improved masking and carts around a force 6 illusion or shapechange in focus but these characters only work in the absense of 1/2 the rules like focus addiction.

Player - "The rest of the party just thinks I'm an elf" GM - "Sigh...."

Also, how do people not think that powers like immunity to normal weapons and regeneration aren't awesome? Sure your hand cannon can punch through the ItNW but it punches through your average human, elf, dwarf or even Ork much better. Every time I build something like a tiger shifter I think to myself this 250 karma (can't remember the exact amount) is a no-brainer. If I made a human and blitzed all his stats up to the same as what the shifters gets for free it would cost close to that and I'd still have a racial max of 6, rather than 12, for 1/2 my stats and I still wouldn't have regeneration or astral perception or natural weapons. The same tends to go for free spirits. Yes they can't use cyberware, but why would you want to given the massive amounts of synergy these magic races have with magical archetypes?

Ever notice how people never want to play non-stat bonus shifters as say a face, or an activist? It's always a tiger or a bear adept/mage/shamam.......

This is a kin to the old "Do you kill the surendered goblin; slaughter the ork baby; or raise the guy you just killed as undead?" argument.

I've never been able to understand it. In this case I don't understand how your Wendigo is happy to blow a corp security guys head off as part of an infiltration run but then have some moral opposition to eating their flesh. It makes no sense. See back there when you decided to become a shadowrunner? That's where you left a large part of your humanity...and that was a choice! Eating flesh is not.

... Just no. Compared to SR4 AI, Deus's name is an accurate assessment. And more generally, are you seriously going to make the argument that players have to be denied something for it to be consider impressive? By that logic, a Magic 30 mage should just yield a response of "yeah, we got one of those too" - and that's an incredibly reductive analogy.

Okay, so one set of Monster Manuel stereotypes is absurd, but another is just peachy? Or do you play your Shadowrun without fragging Elves, Dwarves, Trolls, Orks, and Dragons?

You're cool with Danial Howling Coyote using Shaman magic to cause volcanoes to erupt, you're cool with Immortal Elves like Harlequinn running around fighting evil Cthulhu monsters... whoops, I mean "Horrors", you're cool with Dunkelzhan becoming President of the UCAS before getting geeked and turning into a super-dragon-magic-portal which his super-saiyan brother pops out of later on, but Infected and metavariants torque you off?

You're fine with people playing humans that got warped by ambient magic and got turned into Orks and Trolls, but you're not cool with people playing humans that got infected by magical viruses and got turned into Vampires and Nosferatu, or humans that got warped by the passing of a magical comet and got turned into Changelings?


Because only Infected players don't enforce Focus Addiction, amirite? Not like there are Magicians and Adepts running around with more Foci than toes, or anything. Also, not like you can Resist the Addiction Rolls, or manage to cope with the addiction penalties, or even use a minimal amount of foci to avoid the problem entirely.

Also, you're entirely right about the Illusion magic or Shapechanging. Way to make your argument then point out how it doesn't hold any water. Saved me the trouble.

The simple fact is that most people I talk to will harp about how Infected are impossible to play, when really they aren't. Yes, a Wendigo walking out unconcealed into the street is asking for trouble, but that's about as moronic as walking your Troll character into a Humanis Policlub Potluck. If you play a Wendigo, you take the effort to not get shot. It doesn't take maxed out Magic and overcharged spellcasting to hide your identity from 99% of the population, either. The other 1% are Awakened, so you gotta be careful about being astrally peeped, but that can be handled too, with some effort.

Unless your GM is a dick and purposefully makes your life miserable in order to punish you, that is...


I'll admit that the Shifters do tend to favor the physical, combat benefitting variants, but that's a balance issue, not a reason to not include them as playable character types. That said, ItNW and Regeneration are nice, but not overpowered, especially for their price. But again, that's a balance issue, if it's even an issue at all.


Way to automatically assume lethal tactics and completely miss other alternatives. But that's fine, right? Not like Gel Rounds or SnS exist, nor Stun Batons, Fists, Stunbolts, Drugs, Called Shots, et cetera. Also clearly you can't resort to stealth to bypass enemies, or magic to conceal yourself or confuse or control your foes, or Social skills to manipulate them into letting you past, or Hacking to have them respond to an invented emergency on the other side of the compound, or your Wendigo powers to Fear or Influence them into running away or throwing their weapons over a high wall or whatever.

Honestly, I don't get how you're twisting my argument so badly. I was complaining about a clear gameplay consequence of a specific mechanical effect in SR5. The mechanic of Essence Loss via Power Usage as it stands has the gameplay and roleplay effect of overwhelmingly promoting violent, brutal character behavior and strongly disincentivizing more subdued, non-lethal methods. I'd hardly call that a False Choice argument, as you seem to present me as making.

~Umi

Looking over my old SR4 stuff and it dawns on me that I wouldn't mind seeing more on the P2.0 Los Angeles stuff. I'm thinking of a Power Ranger type overt personae that also uses chameleon tech to pull off DBZ Picolo-has-entered-the-scene kind of visuals.

Edit: With a personaepet type agent that broadcasts an introblurb using the voice of Kenpachi (Bleach), ala Campione.

Of-course. Demi-humans are well... demi-humans. Humans in every way except with point ears, short, pronounced fangs or big. They eat the same food, like the same music and engage in the same social norms (mostly). It's easy to see how they now fit into society. Wendigos on the other hand are big freaky gorilla with a nasty contagious disease who eat human flesh. Surely the difference in the 2 cohorts are fairly obvious.



They're all NPCs for one. I'm not saying wendigos and vampires shouldn't exist in the game, I just think they're dumb as playable characters and the nature of Shadowrun is that they just wouldn't work anyway.

Besides I don't think anyone in universe was 'Ok' with the ghost dance. What exactly can they do about it?



I don't mind changelings because they're not broken and you can play one with only minor mutations that can be hidden or aren't that obtrusive. I would expect extremely mutated changelings to pretty much have to stay in places like glow city however.



Most magicians don't have a need to run around with powerful foci on 16+ hours a day. Having foci and constantly using them are 2 different things.



It's a massive cliche for 15y/o players. "My character is a nosferatu who wears make-up and sustains spells all day so he can stand sunlight!"

If I had a nickel for every time a powergamer came into a game with the old "I appear to be an aloof Elf" I'd have...... I don't know? 50c? I'm not saying that it can't be done, it's just that if the GM doesn't put this kind of PC down they tend to make everyone else redundant.



Yes with masking and illusion spells, blah, blah. What happens if your Wendigo isn't magically active? Oh yeah right, no-one plays those. I wouldn't call a GM a dick for enforcing game rules and Shadowrun world restrictions on a creature that's meant to live in sewers at best or mountains in Canada at worst.



....and I assume all the other runners in the group are doing this as well, and the Johnson you're working for only wants to do good with whatever it is you're stealing and the guy you're buying your human meat from is getting it all from volunteers, etc, etc, etc. All very unlikely. I'd be surprised if a character like this lasted very long in the dog-eat-dog world of Seattle 2072.



I don't understand why you can have a problem with an essence rule and how it affects Wendigo characters when soooooooooooooo many other factors that should make their lives nigh on impossible to live are constantly skipped over. Remember the context of this thread. The argument presented here is why I'd rather see other suppliments come out before the one that allows muchkins into my group, not that I think it shouldn't exist at all.

-- LOL. Well, aside from your rant having nothing to do with what I was talking about, I assume you've never read the SR3 Companion? The 4e Runner's Companion REALLY toned down the descriptions.

Re: Munchkins in the Group:


I had a method of dealing with this, where I say ''We're playing a game based on X, so Y isn't allowed in. If you'd like to play one, we'll have another game soon, or perhaps until then there's another group who is playing a game who allows Y. You're welcome to play A, B, C, D, E, F, G, H, I, and I'll even allow Z in if you come up with a thoughtful reason for it, I'm willing to work with you if you're willing to work a bit with me. Our power level right now is ''Normal+1, or Slightly Cinematic' as per usual, so if folks can stick within that-you're free to make up some lower levels if you really want, but just so you know up front you'll need to maybe be clever to make up the difference, but try not to go too far above that one. Everyone cool with that? Maybe for those who really really want to play their NinjaZombieSharkmen we can have something in a few weeks for a weekend before we go back to the regular game.''


That might be just me, though. Btw-I did not mean for this post to sound snarky or rude at all; but just to explain that so many issues can be solved by GM/Player communication, a little compromise, and more communication.

How did it have nothing to do with what you were talking about? You were talking about how silly the non-infected metavariants were, and I was responding that they don't seem any sillier than any of the normal metatypes and other everyday aspects of Shadowrun.

That said, yes, you are correct, I've never read the SR3 Companion, so I don't have a point of comparison. Of course, if SR4 is, as you say, much more toned down and reasonable, then isn't that a good thing? Shouldn't that tendency continue in SR5 as well? I'm personally all for making the "special" and "exotic" character types just as well thought out and world-suited as basic Elves and Trolls. I just don't want to see them diminished, or Glob forbid, removed entirely, which I admit I assumed was your sentiment.

It sounded like you were complaining about the mere fact that there even were playable character types beyond the 5 metatypes. If instead you were simply complaining about how poorly other types of characters have been implemented over time, that's another matter entirely, and I beg your pardon for having misunderstood you.

~Umi

So basically they're ugly and weird and break our cultural tabboos, so that's automatically intrinsically evil, inhuman, and - worse still - completely unworkable in the game's setting? Right, sure.

People in the world today eat human flesh. It is not evil, is it not wrong, it does not make them somehow inhuman. It also in no way affects one's ability to fit into society if society is not aware of the fact, and only an idiot would play a Wendigo and not disguise the fact. The same goes for the whole tall, muscular, white furred appearance they have going on - any Wendigo who walks down the street undisguised is a moron.


Which matters... why? Game balance? As long as the PC pays a balanced cost to play a Wendigo or other exotic Infected, which they do, how is this a problem?

No min/maxer worth their salt will play a Wendigo - they're not cost efficient. You can do so much more with more traditional character types. The only reason to play a Wendigo is to be something different - certainly not to be something brokenly powerful. If anything, they're actually underpowered - unless you run as them as unrestricted NPCs, of course.


You admit yourself Changelings aren't overpowered. So... what's the problem? The pretty Changelings you're fine with, but the ugly and weird ones you abhor?


If your Wendigo is spending 16+ hours in public, you're doing it wrong.


So you're admitting than even an idiot kid can understand that physical and magical concealment are the smart choice in this case? But then you invoke powergaming for some reason? All wrapped in a complaint of cliche and unoriginality, and finally punctuated with the suggestion that such characters are overpowered and render the rest of the team redundant and need to be shut down? Seriously, buddy, pick an argument.

You don't like unoriginal drek? Tough, you don't have to play an Infected to be unoriginal, cliché, or trite in this game, so that argument is invalid.

You don't like powergamers and min/maxing, because it ruins the fun of the other players? Well, choosing to play a Wendigo is choosing to take a substantial handicap compared to normal character types, meaning it's the opposite of powergaming, so that argument is bunk.

You don't like First Order Optimal Strategies and people going with the tactic or choice that is obviously the most effective, such as using both physical and magical concealment to avoid being shot on sight? Tough, that's a game balance issue, not a compelling reason to excise a game feature wholesale.


You might want to actually read the rules before you judge how GMs should enforce them. No one plays Wendigoes that aren't magically active because they do not exist. Wendigoes are automatically Awakened.

You might also want to brush up on the alleged rules and restrictions you seem to believe both intend and force Wendigoes and the like to live in sewers, because they, too, do not exist. A Wendigo that properly conceals its nature - adhering to all rules while doing so! - can live in an upscale penthouse and ride around in a luxury limosine, just as easily as an Immortal Elf can live in a disused lavatory sucking down novacoke. Both RAW and Fluff allow for these possibilities, unusual or strange as they may be.


You're making an awful lot of asinine assumptions tonight, but at least you admit it.

No, I don't expect a Wendigo's teammates to be happy-go-lucky accepting hippy fun-time friend-pals who don't care about their infected condition. Most of the time, a Wendigo will hide their affliction even from their own teammates for as long as conceivably possible - but then you'd likely complain about that, too, because then we're back to physically and magically concealing their nature, which is "Oh so cliché!".

No, I don't expect a Wendigo's fixer or Johnsons to be orphan saving do-gooders who send them up against the bad guys and reward them with apple pie and cuddles. I expect the Wendigo to cope with the moral complications of Shadowrunning in exactly the same way as any other character - personally. There's no pertinent difference between a Dwarf Pacifist Runner and a Wendigo Pacifist Runner.

No, I don't expect a Wendigo to get all of their meat from Voluntary Human Extinction Movement members, suicide cultists, or any other clean and complication free source. I expect the Wendigo to have to do what is necessary to survive, which means eatting what they can get their hands on when they absolutely have to. That said, a particularly moral and principled Wendigo will go to great lengths to get meat from sources that are at least less questionable than others. It's one thing to have to reluctantly eat people to survive - it's another thing entirely to be an eager and untroubled patron of Tamanous. Of course, even buying from a cyberware-shop or stealing from a morgue is problematic, speaking both philosophically and practically.


So I'm not allowed to have a problem with this specific rule because of a completely unrelated problem that you want to complain about, hmm? My concern isn't valid because it isn't a different concern that you have?

Personally, I have never had a problem with players powergaming Infected in any of my games. I've never had a problem with them being unoriginal or cliche either. I've also never had a problem with Infected characters being overpowered compared to normal ones - quite the opposite, in fact. So yes, I'm going to talk about this particular complaint because it... ya know... actually affects me?


Except that you haven't offered much commentary on wanting this or that particular content in the next supplement book - almost all of your commentary has been about how unsuited Infected and other Advanced Character types are for PC play. You've complained (delusionally in my opinion) about powergaming, munchkins, rules ignoring, poor roleplaying, lack of originality, and the ways in which you believe these all tie irrevocably into the Infected and those who dare to want to have them as a character option.

Nowhere have I seen anything you've posted about the supplements you do want to come out. Literally everything you've posted in this thread has been a direct negative response to my commentary and discussion regarding my own personal wishes for Advanced Character Options in the upcoming supplements. Don't try to invoke thread context to suggest you're not, in fact, simply being a contrarian, because no such context exists.

It's highly insulting of you to instantly assume anyone who wants to play an Infected is a "15y/o", unoriginal, powergaming, rules ignoring munchkin. You've repeatedly made sweeping and offensive generalizations about character choice and playstyle. You really seem to personally, violently resent powergaming and munchkins and people ignoring the rules, because you've brought them up again and again, seemingly almost at random and unconnected to anything else.

But that doesn't sound like a problem with the rules allowing people to play Infected, or people wanting one of the next splat books to feature the updated equivalent for SR5. That sounds like a problem you have with the people you play Shadowrun with.

So stop projecting your frustrations onto me and my views. Stop making absurd, invidious assumptions about how I play Shadowrun based only on wild imaginings and personal paranoias. Stop insisting on the absolute rectitude of your mere prefered tastes, and the indecency of those belonging to others of a different mind. And stop trying to disguise it all under specious claims of merely expressing yourself in accordance with the thread topic when you clearly are doing nothing of the sort.

~Umi

To be clear... you are still arguing about, wether or wether not a book for additional character- and game-options, is supposed to present options, that do not appeal to everyone?

Isn't that the nature of non-core books, though?

A gear book isn't going to appeal to everyone. A setting book isn't going to either. Neither will an adventure book, or even a book of advanced rules for things like Magic, Rigging, or Technomancy.

No splat book ever appeals to everyone. What exactly are you trying to get at, here?

~Umi

Well... that's my point ...and what I am getting at.

Aside from being a friend of options, I also like it when the world is not so much divided between npc and pc and rules are the same for both. The companion books always brought on option and that's why I liked those books. Not all options appealed to me and the concepts weren't allways well designed, but it always has been an interesting read.

With one exception I'm not even convinced that the Essence loss for using powers is too harsh, it's just that your argument was really bad. I mean if all characters had a 1:6 chance to simply drop dead at the start of each combat, the fact that it would affect NPCs too wouldn't really make it any less harsh...

The one exception is Essence Drain, because now draining Essence means you lose Essence faster. If you couldn't get through a blacklist of powers which cause Essence Loss, maybe you should try a whitelist of powers where it makes no sense at all and therefore doesn't apply


Something else which just occurred to me: The description of Essence Loss is based on the one from the old BBB and not from RC. So vampires go burnout in a matter of months unless they earn jackloads of karma...

I am in complete agreement with this sentiment.

~Umi

I love options. Not every option is right for every table and/or every game. That's perfectly understandable, and acceptable. IMO, it's better to have a lot of options-which are well, optional-and then have people pick and use the options that are suitable for them, than have too few options. I guess I never understood why some were against the options as a whole, when they don't need to use them. If, for example, I hated, say, the Ceska Black Scorpion(very random arse-pull of the first thing that came to my mind) for some reason, I just wouldn't have it available in my game. I would not care if the Ceska Black Scorpion is in the book, because others may be perfectly okay with it. What they do in their games does not affect me, nor what I do in my games affect anyone else.

I think it's the idea that if Stuff You Don't Want™ is going into books, that means Effort© on the part of the freelancers and FASA is going into making the Stuff You Don't Want™. Consequently, it isn't hard to imagine that if the Stuff You Don't Want™ wasn't being made, that Effort© would instead go toward making Item Relevant To Your Interests™.

Hence, Stuff You Don't Want™ isn't merely something you don't want and won't use, but is in fact an obstruction to gaining the things you do want, and it therefor needs to be attacked and made to look bad or undesireable in the hopes it ends up getting canned, thus preserving the supply of Effort© solely for the making of Item Relevant To Your Interests™.

This is known as the Look Out For Number One principle.

~Umi

Ever thought that just maybe, it's cos a tiger shifter has a whole lot higher coolness factor.

So your totally okey with munchkin changeling who have irrelevant negative qualities like iris and hair color, but have problems with the ones that have actual negative qualities?
Thats new one,i say.

I played a seal shifter as a juggler/acrobat.

Ah, so Ego and Self-Entitlement Issues...I suspected as much.

Yes. Anyone who doesn't care for or want infected PC options must be a self-righteous prick who demands a company cater only to them.

If people merely didn't want or care for Infecteed PC options, they would simply not comment on them, being as they would not care. They would instead comment on the things they do care for and want.

It's when they actively go out of their way to say "Who would want (thing someone else has expressed an interest in)? Only powergamers and munchkins and people who breaks the rules and who have no originality would ever want that drek!" that I get uppity.

Have I spoken a breath against any other potential new material anyone else has expressed any sort of interest in having? Have I complained that other people don't share my interests and don't care for or want Infected PC options like I do?.

No. I have not.

What I have done is tell off someone who was giving me grief for wanting the things I want: someone who never once talked about their own wants or interests, and who clearly doesn't merely "not care for or want infected PC options", but who was actively trying to be contrary and tell me my views were wrong and that I should not hold them.

Why, exactly, you're wisting my words and leaping to the defense of such behavior is beyond me. I can only hope it isn't deliberate.

~Umi

It is easier to ban options in a home game than it is to homebrew ones that do not exist - it is why you should leave the toilet seat in the position you used it.

hmmm.... leaving aside the discussions about badwrongfun (which i personally don't plan on touching if i can at all avoid it), i would say that rules which encourage an archetype known for (generally speaking) being horrible monsters that revel in feasting on the flesh (or blood, or whatever) and souls of humans... probably makes sense.

i mean, if it made more logical sense for that archetype to choose to be a peace-loving friend to all humanity, then presumably the majority of them wouldn't be heartless soul-eating monsters.

or, in other words, as far as i'm concerned something that makes it a mechanically difficult choice to make the morally correct choice in my opinion works quite well to reflect the fact that their choice is not a common one. otherwise why would so many wendigos/vampires/banshees/whatever fall to the temptation to become creatures worthy of being called monsters?

Well this strikes me as a whole lot of poor editorial decision on the part of the line dev.

Seriously the companion book is one of the worst ones in the game. Despite all the folks crying about their 'special snowflakes'. All it does is give a few players rampant powergaming choices.

And Umidori... no I disagree strongly with your Wendigo bits... one of the big things about infected was they were supposed to be warped by it. In much the same way as a insect shaman... their worldview skews and they become a bit psychotic. Yet instead we don't see this at all... we see people going on and on about their new 'insert infected here' with full mental activities perfectly hidden from the rest of society as if nothing else has happened. Ghouls were the least warped by this if their minds didn't go... but they also didn't need to kill to get their fix... (raiding cemeteries.. etc... could do it).



Quite frankly... the single best supplement book to come out next would have been the new arsenal replaement. It has something for everyone. Toys for the street sams, toys for the riggers, toys for the deckers... armor for everyone. weapons for everyone. More magitech countermeasures for... The only thought here is this might run a bit afoul of the goal of avoiding gear porn.

After that it's a toss-up... new matrix book maybe to further expand on the matrix changes. Preferably written by new freelancers!!! Whoever wrote the SR5 core book wireless bene's should never get a writing assignment ever again.



Patrick:
Regards critter powers... the biggest problem is the biggest offenses were left in. Offenses that had been well documented for years in numerous forum threads.

The only big thing I saw reading through the section today at my friends was many tests which were 2 critter attributes vs. 1 were changed to be 2 vs 2. However, you're still left with the problem that powers are inherently far more powerful than spells. No way to boost defenses against them with things like counterspelling, no sustaining penalty, etc.


Case in point... concealment. Removing dice == force is generally overpowered and awkward. If it gave a dice pool bonus to the stealther it would have fixed many things as well as made the characters sneaking limit relevant (penalizing dice pool is a double whammy not only does it further penalize a normally smaller dice pool into irrelevance. But it also doesn't press the sneakers die pool higher making limits more relevant)... With even a basic level of stealth... it essentially turns concealment into full blown invisibility. The way it works on anything... even a technological item like a camera or drone is rather problematic as well. The best way would have been to make it a magical chameleon suit which wouldn't stack effects with a normal one. Why can you sneak past the physical camera... because you're a chameleon and blend into the background with a magical physical illusion effect.

Similarly... natural weapon should spell out that the dual-natured refers explicitly to the critter power... not merely anyone who switches astral perception on. (the entire point of that was so that critters like magical bears didn't need astral combat after it was pointed out that they were gimped by dual-natured with no way to defend themselves or attack anything in the astral since their stat blocks didn't include 'astral combat' a trained only skill! The point wasn't to give adepts an easy out to ignore astral combat after they'd taken astral perception).

Mist Form... I think it was you on the main forums who we went into it with. It shouldn't include equipment at all... (this is grossly abusive of game mechanics... and allows for an instant 'I win' trick for anything with the power...). Read the power... a vampire can intentionally switch to mist form after temporarily draining something to pump up their magic to get hardened armor at stupidly high levels. Being in mist form only slightly hampers movement speed, but vastly expands where the character can go while making them nearly invulnerable to damage. It does not stop the character from using other magic at the same time! (while in my nearly invulnerable mist form I proeed to cast spells on the hapless mundanes who can't do a damned thing about it! much like the old astral/grounding abuses which almost never threatened mages who were highly resistane to the attacks, but only gave the mages a tool to attack mundanes with impunity).


Not to say it's all bad... the changes to hardened armor are reasonably good. Also my observations reflect that damage values went up signifiantly... a force 6 spirit isn't quite the terror it was when many guns start in the 10'ish base damage range and can easily penetrate it's ItNW. Reading the power it's reasonable... have 12 points of hardened... you do 13 points damage.. 6 is automatically soaked by the hardened and the rest is soaked normally by normal armor + body. Not quite as catastrophic as before...

Here we go again. More people telling me I'm wrong and my preferences for telling stories in the Sixth World are stupid/impractical/whatever.

I'm done arguing that aspect of the discussion, I have no logical reason to respond further to such vitriol, because I'm allowed to like what I like for whatever goddamn reason I please and fuck you for thinking I shouldn't when it isn't any of your goddamn business and it doesn't affect you or your enjoyment of the game in the slightest.

Now, to be fair, you did at least then go on to actually talk about what you would like to see and provide feedback to Patrick in the second half of your post. Pity it was only after you got done taking the Mickey out of other people's opinions and interests for no good reason.

~Umi

If there are problems with any particular option, they should be fixed and not thrown out entirely.

To me, its one thing to ignore a problem and not fix it. It's a completely different matter if you decide to just toss it away entirely.

And THAT is a worse game design decision then the former.

(annoyed as is that I can't transition my current SR4 game to SR5 as is)

You're going out of your way to pretend that discrimination doesn't come in shades of grey. FACT: The more alien you appear (in the real world) the harder it is for you to be accepted in society. I'm not saying it's right, I'm just saying that it's reality. People with pointy ears are going to be hated less than infectious hairy magical canibals.



I'm not sure what you're trying to say here. Are you making a philosophical arguments that eating human flesh isn't intrinsically evil?



Here we'll have to agree to disagree. The costs almost always seem to be paid back in free stat bonuses, increased racial maximums, innate abilities and magic.



Again, shades of grey.



I was actually making the point that we tend to look back at what we thought was cool when we were 15 and cringe.



I'm not going to ask you to present a case because I can't be bothered analyzing it but you should take from this discussion that I'm not solely against Wendigos (which I was getting the impression you play exclusively). In the context of this discussion I'm using 'Wendigo' as a synonym for 'Runner's Companion' races. They're not all hideously broken but what I'm saying is that it's rare for someone to pick one of those races without some kind of combat bonus in mind. It's been my experience that free spirits vampres and shifters seem pretty effective at wading into bullets storms that would have an ork street sam worried.




I hadn't rushed off to read the rules for Wendigo before posting because again, I wasn't really targetting them specifically. Point taken.



Probably not, but I tend to find that tables never have a group with just one of these types of character. So when your team consists of a Vampire, a dragon, an AI and a bear shifter then the plethora of weapon immunities and regenerations seem pretty comparable.




I thought 'Anything but Runners Companion' was implied? Ok, how about a gear book? Yeah, I want that first.



Settle down champ. We're in this place called the internet. You need a thick skin here. If I was really trying to insult or bait you I could have done a hell of a better job than this.

I guess I just finds it funny that we're playing a game with elves and dwarves in a dystopian future where mercenary groups infiltrate corporations for profit while avoiding the gaze of great dragons and almost omnipotent AIs in a game with no class system and that we can't come up with an original and fun character concept unless it's a magical gorilla that eats human flesh to stay magical while pretending to be an elf that flips burgers at Stuffer Shack.

Really? Are you sure it's not about the immunity to normal weapons?

Yes, I can imagine such a restriction - it's MagicRun 2.0 now, after all.

This thread is about upcoming sourcebooks. Discussions about different styles of play, the power level of Infected, and PC vs. NPC rules are for separate threads. Watch your tone, btw.