SR 5: What's next for the supplements? Options

[quentra]

Weren't shifters boned by the whole dual-natured thing?

[Isath]

Allways have been, but you can arrange with that... also it depends on the game you are in.

[RHat]

Well, being Infected is supposed to be starting to suck a lot more per Storm Front.

[Sendaz]

Well, being Infected is supposed to be starting to suck a lot more per Storm Front.

Which is why I expect my backstock in Total Eclipse™ SPF 350 Sunscreen will be a hot item for the night inclined crew for those awkward daylight dramas.

[Vegetaman]

And some new novels/fiction that makes use of the new setting...!?!?

[Sengir]

Once I run the numbers, it doesn't seem that bad, actually. Let's assume a vampire of 180 pounds. At the old 5% weight per week rate, that's 9 pounds of blood per week, or roughly 9 pints, 4.5 quarts, or 1.125 gallons of blood. If every day you drank a small pint-sized milk carton full of blood, that plus a few nightcaps here and there accounts for 9 pints easy, and it matches up pretty nicely with the newer, less specific ruling.

Yep, if you correlate the rule with the old rules it makes perfect sense. But if the rule stands alone (as it should in a new edition) things are really muddy. "One meal a day, totaling no less than 5 % of body weight per week" would have been far clearer. BTW, shouldn't "unless specified in the critter’s description, it needs..." read "unless specified otherwise..."?


@TJ (and my favorite hate topic)

Why was Nanotech Annoying (we never saw it as such), it has been present for most of the history of Shadowrun, in one form or another (the above mentioned nanosurgery, for instance)?

Nanotech in the meaning of "tiny spider robots defying all laws of physics by their very existence" were introduced in Man & Machine, explained as a radical advancement only made possible by Deus, and had fairly obscene street availability. Since then it has gotten worse and evolved into "anything, anytime, anywhere".
The only description I am aware of before Deus was in Shadowtech, which far closer to how actual nanotech might work: Modified bacteria, molecular self-assembly, proteins, all those forming comparatively simple structures like wires and interconnects.

[Doc Chaos]

Well, being Infected is supposed to be starting to suck a lot more per Storm Front.

Why? I read Storm Front once, but can't recall anything on the topic of Infected right now. Did I miss something?

[RHat]

Why? I read Storm Front once, but can't recall anything on the topic of Infected right now. Did I miss something?

... An entire chapter, yeah. Was pretty light on the detail, but things like their allergy to the sun were getting worse, Regen was rejecting even Deltaware that had been there for some time, their hunger was getting more insistent... Bunch of stuff.

[Doc Chaos]

... An entire chapter, yeah. Was pretty light on the detail, but things like their allergy to the sun were getting worse, Regen was rejecting even Deltaware that had been there for some time, their hunger was getting more insistent... Bunch of stuff.

Ooooh, right, Hanibelle, the Ghoul stuff. Now I remember. I need more coffee...

[Umidori]

Well, being Infected is supposed to be starting to suck a lot more per Storm Front.

There's sucking, and then there's punishing a character for making use of the abilities that make them inherently different from all other character types.

The net effect is that Infected like Wendigoes that rely heavily on Active Powers are going to be played even more rarely than they were in SR4, while Infected like Ghouls and Vampires that see their benefits mostly in the forms of Attribute bonuses will be all the more attractive. If pricing and attribute bonuses stay roughly the same between editions, Vampire Mages and Ork or Troll Ghoul Adepts are gonna be very powerful and desireable, while even the most dedicated and diehard Infected fans (myself included) will seriously question the viability of playing a Wendigo of any variety, given that we can't use our bread and butter powers of Fear and Influence without rapidly losing a point of Essence - and consequently a point of Magic if it's not below the maximum!

~Umi

[Voran]

On the other hand, in some respects I can understand a reason for wanting to pull things back in, in a way. I'm not condoning it or condemning it, but sometimes when you start getting too diverse and fringed, its more difficult from a GM perspective or 'game theme' perspective to well...figure out a theme. Much less 'balance' a group. The general responsibility of a GM includes making each player feel like they are (through their char) involved in the game. Thankfully, its not as bad as say, RIFTS setting but look at historically its been difficult to engage gameplay for 'decker' type chars, much less when you start adding mutated magical catgirl or somesuch.

[ElFenrir]

Out of all the 'Different' types-Shifters probably have, IMO, the 'easiest' time for a GM, especially since Regeneration, over the years, has been brought down from 'broken' (2e-3e), to 'Very Good'(4e), and now 'Good but definitely not overpowered' (5e.)

Stat Bonuses? Some are quite big but nothing that core races don't already get(read: trolls.) Hell, I always said Bears were overcost; they took a huge Agility hit(the God Combat Stat), where the Big Cat shifters, while they didn't get as big of a Body/Str bonus, got a very nice Agility bonus-I had always wondered why the big cats weren't the most expensive ones. They seem like the overall 'bang for the buck.)

They look human otherwise, they have little things about them(my bear, in his elf form, was taller, more muscular, and while he kept most of his face shaven except for a goatee on his chin, did have more body hair than the typical elf, but in the Sixth World there are probably hairy elves out there), but they don't totally 'stick out'-well, unless it's on the Astral, the dual nature is a pretty decent disadvantage. They can't take 'ware without their body rejecting it. All in all they're not *that* bad. They're different, and not for every game, but arguably them and Drakes I find probably the least 'interruptive.' (the changelings can range from 'Okay, that dude is just...blue, maybe cosmetic surgery?' to 'Holy drek Cthulhu Fred.')

Also, unlike infected, they don't need to *eat people* to survive, which I imagine is a reason why they want to tone them down, or something.

[Patrick Goodman]

There's sucking, and then there's punishing a character for making use of the abilities that make them inherently different from all other character types.

And the pain and pleasure are both for PC and NPC Infected. They're ALL feeling the pain.

The net effect is that Infected like Wendigoes that rely heavily on Active Powers are going to be played even more rarely than they were in SR4...

I've yet to see a convincing argument why this is a Bad Thing. I've seen a lot of arguments, but I've not seen one that absolutely convinces me that playable Infected were EVER a good idea.

...while Infected like Ghouls and Vampires that see their benefits mostly in the forms of Attribute bonuses will be all the more attractive.

Not really, IMO, but that's just MY opinion.

If pricing and attribute bonuses stay roughly the same between editions, Vampire Mages and Ork or Troll Ghoul Adepts are gonna be very powerful and desireable, while even the most dedicated and diehard Infected fans (myself included) will seriously question the viability of playing a Wendigo of any variety, given that we can't use our bread and butter powers of Fear and Influence without rapidly losing a point of Essence - and consequently a point of Magic if it's not below the maximum!

Pricing's likely to be quite different, but again, I've not really looked at those rules yet, and there's been no discussion on how best to implement them. Discussion isn't going to happen until September at the earliest, because I've got a contract deadline in August and CGL has this little shindig they have to go to in Indy in a little over a week.

I'm slightly shocked at the tremendous surprise people are exhibiting at the current situation, however, since I've been telling people since, oh, the end of 2011 or so that things were going to get rough for Infected, and for even longer that my stance on Infected PCs is not altogether benevolent. I'm not out to bone players of Infected characters, but there's a price to be paid

[Not of this Worl...]

For your 2nd and 3rd edition Infected and critters with regeneration the powers worked just fine... because they weren't player powers and the GM could abstract them.

They were designed to be NPCs and as such the abstract rules worked, but the problem is when you making things available for PCs there is an expectation that players be balanced. That Magic balances with cyber, balances with... AIs, Infected, and playable critter powers.

Also, the big reveal in a lot of things like Renraku Shutdown or any other villian is incredibly subdued when the players can just go... yeah we got us one of those. Larry is an AI (or whatever) too. There will always be those people who play Great Dragons or a cabal of Nosferatu because they want to, you don't necessarily need rules for it nor does it necessarily help the over game setting to provide rules for every little thing. Sometimes more is less.

[Sengir]

And the pain and pleasure are both for PC and NPC Infected. They're ALL feeling the pain.

Now that's not really a counterargument against the claim that some Infected got boned too hard, is it? (IMG:style_emoticons/default/wink.gif)

[Tzeentch]

Shadowrun isn't Rifts. It was borderline silly how many even non-Infected metavariants there were (some of which little more than walking Monster Manual-level stereotypes). And then SURGE came along . . .

[tete]

You could also just use whatever 4e rule exists until its replaced with 5e stuff to... Use 5e for the base then grab your move by wire or ghoul from 4e until its out for 5e. We have done that in the past from 1e to 2e and 2e to 3e. Its only 3e to 4e where conversion was a bit more painful. Personally (and no offense to the authors here) 5e you cant play by RAW yet. You at least have to give dwarves thermo-vision from your 4e books anyway (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)

[Patrick Goodman]

Now that's not really a counterargument against the claim that some Infected got boned too hard, is it? (IMG:style_emoticons/default/wink.gif)

No, I suppose it's not. And the wording on Essence Loss was changed in editing; I had a specific list of powers that accelerated the problem, but it was replaced by the current wording and I recently lost the battle to get it changed back.

[Umidori]

Well, good to know that part isn't your doing. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/nyahnyah.gif)

That said, I really don't see much of the changes really punishing Infected as a whole - but rather punishing certain kinds of Infected that try to be anything other than soul-sucking monsters.

The new Essence Loss thing? If your modus operandi is to pull Essence out of any old opposition you come across, then you can use your powers willy-nilly and just replenish as you go. The Wendigo that shows no mercy, that drains every poor Corp-Sec Guard dry and constantly keeps using the excess Essence to replenish what they lose from Power use, or even just to boost their Magic or Attributes to maximized levels, doesn't suffer at all from these changes - rather, they're encouraged to keep on stealing souls, because that way they always stay at peak Essence.

Meanwhile the Wendigo that clings to their metahumanity, who wrestles with their urges, who goes out of their way to find a willing Renfield and who dines on the least morally offensive source of flesh they can find - maybe a graveyard, maybe cyberization leftovers, but definitely not Tamanous! - they get saddled with the very real threat of not being able to use their powers on a run, of being forced to go back and visit their Renfield every time they use just a few powers because they refuse on moral grounds to simply "refill" their Essence in the field.

Is this really the sort of behavior we want the mechanics to foster? Do we really want more of the Infected to just be ravening murder beasts? And why only the "Special Infected" who have to drain Essence? If this is supposed to be some sort of balancing mechanic for Infect, why not give all the Infected Essence Loss and Drain? Or are Goblins, Banshees, Vampires, Nosferatu, Wendigoes, and Dzoo-Noo-Qua somehow specially problematic compared to the rest?

Could you imagine if street samurai had a similar restriction? Imagine if your 'ware degraded substantially with every use, and that after only a few total uses of any combination of your 'ware, you dropped a point in certain Attributes. Imagine likewise that you also somehow ran the risk of permanently losing karma (mirroring how if the Infected's Essence drops below their current Magic, they lose a point of Magic permanently). Now imagine if this degredation could be reversed mid-run by taking a few minutes to cannibalize the 'ware of your defeated foes. How many Street Sams do you think would stoop to recycling their enemies, rather than waiting until after the run to go repair or replace their degraded goods?

Now, as you said Patrick, this specific problem isn't your fault, and you even actively fought against it. For that, I am grateful. But until such time as this gets changed to a more sensible wording, could you perhaps do us a favor and supply your list of specific powers?

~Umi

[Smash]

Shadowrun isn't Rifts. It was borderline silly how many even non-Infected metavariants there were (some of which little more than walking Monster Manual-level stereotypes). And then SURGE came along . . .

Agreed.

I have no idea how some people can even justify playing things like Wendigos. If you're playing a city based campaign (90% of them?) then to me it would be like:
Player - "I leave my hole in the barrens" GM - "Everyone shoots you"
Player - "I get out of the car and......" GM - "Everyone shoots you"
Player - "Everyone shoots me" GM - "Everyone shoots you"

No doubt the player is a mage and has improved masking and carts around a force 6 illusion or shapechange in focus but these characters only work in the absense of 1/2 the rules like focus addiction.

Player - "The rest of the party just thinks I'm an elf" GM - "Sigh...."

Also, how do people not think that powers like immunity to normal weapons and regeneration aren't awesome? Sure your hand cannon can punch through the ItNW but it punches through your average human, elf, dwarf or even Ork much better. Every time I build something like a tiger shifter I think to myself this 250 karma (can't remember the exact amount) is a no-brainer. If I made a human and blitzed all his stats up to the same as what the shifters gets for free it would cost close to that and I'd still have a racial max of 6, rather than 12, for 1/2 my stats and I still wouldn't have regeneration or astral perception or natural weapons. The same tends to go for free spirits. Yes they can't use cyberware, but why would you want to given the massive amounts of synergy these magic races have with magical archetypes?

Ever notice how people never want to play non-stat bonus shifters as say a face, or an activist? It's always a tiger or a bear adept/mage/shamam.......

[Smash]

The new Essence Loss thing? If your modus operandi is to pull Essence out of any old opposition you come across, then you can use your powers willy-nilly and just replenish as you go. The Wendigo that shows no mercy, that drains every poor Corp-Sec Guard dry and constantly keeps using the excess Essence to replenish what they lose from Power use, or even just to boost their Magic or Attributes to maximized levels, doesn't suffer at all from these changes - rather, they're encouraged to keep on stealing souls, because that way they always stay at peak Essence.

Meanwhile the Wendigo that clings to their metahumanity, who wrestles with their urges, who goes out of their way to find a willing Renfield and who dines on the least morally offensive source of flesh they can find - maybe a graveyard, maybe cyberization leftovers, but definitely not Tamanous! - they get saddled with the very real threat of not being able to use their powers on a run, of being forced to go back and visit their Renfield every time they use just a few powers because they refuse on moral grounds to simply "refill" their Essence in the field.

Is this really the sort of behavior we want the mechanics to foster? Do we really want more of the Infected to just be ravening murder beasts? And why only the "Special Infected" who have to drain Essence? If this is supposed to be some sort of balancing mechanic for Infect, why not give all the Infected Essence Loss and Drain? Or are Goblins, Banshees, Vampires, Nosferatu, Wendigoes, and Dzoo-Noo-Qua somehow specially problematic compared to the rest?

This is a kin to the old "Do you kill the surendered goblin; slaughter the ork baby; or raise the guy you just killed as undead?" argument.

I've never been able to understand it. In this case I don't understand how your Wendigo is happy to blow a corp security guys head off as part of an infiltration run but then have some moral opposition to eating their flesh. It makes no sense. See back there when you decided to become a shadowrunner? That's where you left a large part of your humanity...and that was a choice! Eating flesh is not.

[RHat]

Also, the big reveal in a lot of things like Renraku Shutdown or any other villian is incredibly subdued when the players can just go... yeah we got us one of those. Larry is an AI (or whatever) too.

... Just no. Compared to SR4 AI, Deus's name is an accurate assessment. And more generally, are you seriously going to make the argument that players have to be denied something for it to be consider impressive? By that logic, a Magic 30 mage should just yield a response of "yeah, we got one of those too" - and that's an incredibly reductive analogy.

[Umidori]

Shadowrun isn't Rifts. It was borderline silly how many even non-Infected metavariants there were (some of which little more than walking Monster Manual-level stereotypes). And then SURGE came along . . .

Agreed.

Okay, so one set of Monster Manuel stereotypes is absurd, but another is just peachy? Or do you play your Shadowrun without fragging Elves, Dwarves, Trolls, Orks, and Dragons?

You're cool with Danial Howling Coyote using Shaman magic to cause volcanoes to erupt, you're cool with Immortal Elves like Harlequinn running around fighting evil Cthulhu monsters... whoops, I mean "Horrors", you're cool with Dunkelzhan becoming President of the UCAS before getting geeked and turning into a super-dragon-magic-portal which his super-saiyan brother pops out of later on, but Infected and metavariants torque you off?

You're fine with people playing humans that got warped by ambient magic and got turned into Orks and Trolls, but you're not cool with people playing humans that got infected by magical viruses and got turned into Vampires and Nosferatu, or humans that got warped by the passing of a magical comet and got turned into Changelings?

I have no idea how some people can even justify playing things like Wendigos. If you're playing a city based campaign (90% of them?) then to me it would be like:
Player - "I leave my hole in the barrens" GM - "Everyone shoots you"
Player - "I get out of the car and......" GM - "Everyone shoots you"
Player - "Everyone shoots me" GM - "Everyone shoots you"

No doubt the player is a mage and has improved masking and carts around a force 6 illusion or shapechange in focus but these characters only work in the absense of 1/2 the rules like focus addiction.

Player - "The rest of the party just thinks I'm an elf" GM - "Sigh...."

Because only Infected players don't enforce Focus Addiction, amirite? Not like there are Magicians and Adepts running around with more Foci than toes, or anything. Also, not like you can Resist the Addiction Rolls, or manage to cope with the addiction penalties, or even use a minimal amount of foci to avoid the problem entirely.

Also, you're entirely right about the Illusion magic or Shapechanging. Way to make your argument then point out how it doesn't hold any water. Saved me the trouble. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/wink.gif)

The simple fact is that most people I talk to will harp about how Infected are impossible to play, when really they aren't. Yes, a Wendigo walking out unconcealed into the street is asking for trouble, but that's about as moronic as walking your Troll character into a Humanis Policlub Potluck. If you play a Wendigo, you take the effort to not get shot. It doesn't take maxed out Magic and overcharged spellcasting to hide your identity from 99% of the population, either. The other 1% are Awakened, so you gotta be careful about being astrally peeped, but that can be handled too, with some effort.

Unless your GM is a dick and purposefully makes your life miserable in order to punish you, that is...

Also, how do people not think that powers like immunity to normal weapons and regeneration aren't awesome? Sure your hand cannon can punch through the ItNW but it punches through your average human, elf, dwarf or even Ork much better. Every time I build something like a tiger shifter I think to myself this 250 karma (can't remember the exact amount) is a no-brainer. If I made a human and blitzed all his stats up to the same as what the shifters gets for free it would cost close to that and I'd still have a racial max of 6, rather than 12, for 1/2 my stats and I still wouldn't have regeneration or astral perception or natural weapons. The same tends to go for free spirits. Yes they can't use cyberware, but why would you want to given the massive amounts of synergy these magic races have with magical archetypes?

Ever notice how people never want to play non-stat bonus shifters as say a face, or an activist? It's always a tiger or a bear adept/mage/shamam.......

I'll admit that the Shifters do tend to favor the physical, combat benefitting variants, but that's a balance issue, not a reason to not include them as playable character types. That said, ItNW and Regeneration are nice, but not overpowered, especially for their price. But again, that's a balance issue, if it's even an issue at all.

This is a kin to the old "Do you kill the surendered goblin; slaughter the ork baby; or raise the guy you just killed as undead?" argument.

I've never been able to understand it. In this case I don't understand how your Wendigo is happy to blow a corp security guys head off as part of an infiltration run but then have some moral opposition to eating their flesh. It makes no sense. See back there when you decided to become a shadowrunner? That's where you left a large part of your humanity...and that was a choice! Eating flesh is not.

Way to automatically assume lethal tactics and completely miss other alternatives. But that's fine, right? Not like Gel Rounds or SnS exist, nor Stun Batons, Fists, Stunbolts, Drugs, Called Shots, et cetera. Also clearly you can't resort to stealth to bypass enemies, or magic to conceal yourself or confuse or control your foes, or Social skills to manipulate them into letting you past, or Hacking to have them respond to an invented emergency on the other side of the compound, or your Wendigo powers to Fear or Influence them into running away or throwing their weapons over a high wall or whatever.

Honestly, I don't get how you're twisting my argument so badly. I was complaining about a clear gameplay consequence of a specific mechanical effect in SR5. The mechanic of Essence Loss via Power Usage as it stands has the gameplay and roleplay effect of overwhelmingly promoting violent, brutal character behavior and strongly disincentivizing more subdued, non-lethal methods. I'd hardly call that a False Choice argument, as you seem to present me as making.

~Umi

[Voran]

Looking over my old SR4 stuff and it dawns on me that I wouldn't mind seeing more on the P2.0 Los Angeles stuff. I'm thinking of a Power Ranger type overt personae that also uses chameleon tech to pull off DBZ Picolo-has-entered-the-scene kind of visuals.

Edit: With a personaepet type agent that broadcasts an introblurb using the voice of Kenpachi (Bleach), ala Campione.

[Smash]

Okay, so one set of Monster Manuel stereotypes is absurd, but another is just peachy? Or do you play your Shadowrun without fragging Elves, Dwarves, Trolls, Orks, and Dragons?

Of-course. Demi-humans are well... demi-humans. Humans in every way except with point ears, short, pronounced fangs or big. They eat the same food, like the same music and engage in the same social norms (mostly). It's easy to see how they now fit into society. Wendigos on the other hand are big freaky gorilla with a nasty contagious disease who eat human flesh. Surely the difference in the 2 cohorts are fairly obvious.

You're cool with Danial Howling Coyote using Shaman magic to cause volcanoes to erupt, you're cool with Immortal Elves like Harlequinn running around fighting evil Cthulhu monsters... whoops, I mean "Horrors", you're cool with Dunkelzhan becoming President of the UCAS before getting geeked and turning into a super-dragon-magic-portal which his super-saiyan brother pops out of later on, but Infected and metavariants torque you off?

They're all NPCs for one. I'm not saying wendigos and vampires shouldn't exist in the game, I just think they're dumb as playable characters and the nature of Shadowrun is that they just wouldn't work anyway.

Besides I don't think anyone in universe was 'Ok' with the ghost dance. What exactly can they do about it?

You're fine with people playing humans that got warped by ambient magic and got turned into Orks and Trolls, but you're not cool with people playing humans that got infected by magical viruses and got turned into Vampires and Nosferatu, or humans that got warped by the passing of a magical comet and got turned into Changelings?

I don't mind changelings because they're not broken and you can play one with only minor mutations that can be hidden or aren't that obtrusive. I would expect extremely mutated changelings to pretty much have to stay in places like glow city however.

Because only Infected players don't enforce Focus Addiction, amirite? Not like there are Magicians and Adepts running around with more Foci than toes, or anything. Also, not like you can Resist the Addiction Rolls, or manage to cope with the addiction penalties, or even use a minimal amount of foci to avoid the problem entirely.

Most magicians don't have a need to run around with powerful foci on 16+ hours a day. Having foci and constantly using them are 2 different things.

Also, you're entirely right about the Illusion magic or Shapechanging. Way to make your argument then point out how it doesn't hold any water. Saved me the trouble. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/wink.gif)

It's a massive cliche for 15y/o players. "My character is a nosferatu who wears make-up and sustains spells all day so he can stand sunlight!"

If I had a nickel for every time a powergamer came into a game with the old "I appear to be an aloof Elf" I'd have...... I don't know? 50c? I'm not saying that it can't be done, it's just that if the GM doesn't put this kind of PC down they tend to make everyone else redundant.

The simple fact is that most people I talk to will harp about how Infected are impossible to play, when really they aren't. Yes, a Wendigo walking out unconcealed into the street is asking for trouble, but that's about as moronic as walking your Troll character into a Humanis Policlub Potluck. If you play a Wendigo, you take the effort to not get shot. It doesn't take maxed out Magic and overcharged spellcasting to hide your identity from 99% of the population, either. The other 1% are Awakened, so you gotta be careful about being astrally peeped, but that can be handled too, with some effort.

Unless your GM is a dick and purposefully makes your life miserable in order to punish you, that is...

Yes with masking and illusion spells, blah, blah. What happens if your Wendigo isn't magically active? Oh yeah right, no-one plays those. I wouldn't call a GM a dick for enforcing game rules and Shadowrun world restrictions on a creature that's meant to live in sewers at best or mountains in Canada at worst.

Way to automatically assume lethal tactics and completely miss other alternatives. But that's fine, right? Not like Gel Rounds or SnS exist, nor Stun Batons, Fists, Stunbolts, Drugs, Called Shots, et cetera. Also clearly you can't resort to stealth to bypass enemies, or magic to conceal yourself or confuse or control your foes, or Social skills to manipulate them into letting you past, or Hacking to have them respond to an invented emergency on the other side of the compound, or your Wendigo powers to Fear or Influence them into running away or throwing their weapons over a high wall or whatever.

....and I assume all the other runners in the group are doing this as well, and the Johnson you're working for only wants to do good with whatever it is you're stealing and the guy you're buying your human meat from is getting it all from volunteers, etc, etc, etc. All very unlikely. I'd be surprised if a character like this lasted very long in the dog-eat-dog world of Seattle 2072.

Honestly, I don't get how you're twisting my argument so badly. I was complaining about a clear gameplay consequence of a specific mechanical effect in SR5. The mechanic of Essence Loss via Power Usage as it stands has the gameplay and roleplay effect of overwhelmingly promoting violent, brutal character behavior and strongly disincentivizing more subdued, non-lethal methods. I'd hardly call that a False Choice argument, as you seem to present me as making.

I don't understand why you can have a problem with an essence rule and how it affects Wendigo characters when soooooooooooooo many other factors that should make their lives nigh on impossible to live are constantly skipped over. Remember the context of this thread. The argument presented here is why I'd rather see other suppliments come out before the one that allows muchkins into my group, not that I think it shouldn't exist at all.