Newbie confused with all the fuss Options

[Archmike]

That's a newbie to the forums not shadowrun ^_^ Been playing SR since 2nd ed and if you think 5th is a mess try playing that! (IMG:style_emoticons/default/nyahnyah.gif)

On that topic why do people think 5th is a mess? Reading all the post about the place people seem very disgruntled about 5th but I have to admit to not seeing the issue. Maybe I'm too much a cup half full guy? I quite like the new wireless ideas. They're a nice litle thing that wasn't there before yet there seems to be a lot of hate about the place for them.

So yeah why do i keep seeing that the rules are crap? What am i missing? (IMG:style_emoticons/default/frown.gif)

[Elfenlied]

The edition is still new, so many people will rant about perceived changes/imbalances they are unhappy with. I expect the complains to die down once people get some actual playtime in.

That said, here are some of the issues:
1) Implementation of Wireless bonuses: In order to make the decker archetype more involved in combat and outside of pure VR matrix adventures in general, a lot of gear had bonuses introduced that only apply while the gear in question is connected to the matrix. The main issue about this is that the majority of these bonuses applied in older editions without matrix connection, so many perceive this as an unnecessary nerf. From a gamist point of view, I think this change is actually good (even if the implementation is wanting), since 4e allowed almost complete hacking immunity through metagaming and gear choices. This is by far the most discussed issue.
2) Technology rollback: SR5 is designed to appeal to fans of older editions, so little progress of what was shown first in 4e is implemented. In fact, technology took a giant step back. Hacking requires cyberdecks again, nanotech had a bridge dropped on it and skinlink miraculously disappeared.
3) Mystic Adepts: They get to be a true hybrid between mages and adepts without sacrificing 50% of each. In fact, archetypes such as the melee ninja using invisibility spells are actually viable now. A lot of the people take offense to this, but do note that both mages and adepts were nerfed in comparison to mundanes. While initiative enhancement got 0.5 PP cheaper, social and unarmed adepts (the two greatest strengths of the adept in 4e) are outclassed now by wareuser. Spells got nerfed both in damage and drain.

[Archmike]

Thanks, you knwo i totally hadn't clicked the cyberdeck thing. So used to that being there over the editions and never played a decker that it totally escaped me. Very weird that. Have the said why?

I guess you could just treat a deck as an AR interface instead of an actual physical deck? That would bring it back up to date. Nano/skin link stuff i reckon will return with the 5th equivalent or arsenal/unwired/hoobedobedo.

Still some food for thought there tah (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)

[Jhaiisiin]

The in game explanation is that comlink protocols are no longer sufficient to effectively hack, and you need more power than can be jammed in a comlink sized unit.

Out of game, decks were always very SR, so chances are nostalgia played a part in their return. That said, I'm happy the decks are back. I didn't like that just anyone with a 2 nuyen 'link could start up script kiddy nonsense and be a "hacker".

[DireRadiant]

There's always the silent non posting majority. You never hear from them.

Except that they are buying SR5 and having a lot of fun. Poor them, busy playing and having fun instead of posting to Dumpshock.

[Jaid]

There's always the silent non posting majority. You never hear from them.

Except that they are buying SR5 and having a lot of fun. Poor them, busy playing and having fun instead of posting to Dumpshock.

what makes you think i'm not having fun complaining on dumpshock? (IMG:style_emoticons/default/wink.gif)

that said, i agree that mostly SR5 is pretty good. they did a lot of things that i agree with. but they also did a few things that i think are really, really dumb. the *idea* of online bonuses i don't mind, but the specific online bonuses they chose just seem completely nonsensical and arbitrary. somehow, googling your own equipment's on/off switch is faster than just using the ARO located in your HUD, for example. makes no sense.

[Draco18s]

Have the said why?

Mostly its one of those things that Players said they liked that aspect of 3rd and missed it in 4th.

5th has a lot of retconns, most of which are for gamist reasons (which is totally cool in my book: if a particular ruleset ended up being Bad for the Table, then do away with it).

A number of things have come across oddly (the whole wireless bonus thing I like from a concept point of view, but feel it was implemented poorly), which isn't helped by the fluff reasons given.

[SpellBinder]

The edition is still new, so many people will rant about perceived changes/imbalances they are unhappy with. I expect the complains to die down once people get some actual playtime in.

That said, here are some of the issues:
1) Implementation of Wireless bonuses: In order to make the decker archetype more involved in combat and outside of pure VR matrix adventures in general, a lot of gear had bonuses introduced that only apply while the gear in question is connected to the matrix. The main issue about this is that the majority of these bonuses applied in older editions without matrix connection, so many perceive this as an unnecessary nerf. From a gamist point of view, I think this change is actually good (even if the implementation is wanting), since 4e allowed almost complete hacking immunity through metagaming and gear choices. This is by far the most discussed issue.
2) Technology rollback: SR5 is designed to appeal to fans of older editions, so little progress of what was shown first in 4e is implemented. In fact, technology took a giant step back. Hacking requires cyberdecks again, nanotech had a bridge dropped on it and skinlink miraculously disappeared.
3) Mystic Adepts: They get to be a true hybrid between mages and adepts without sacrificing 50% of each. In fact, archetypes such as the melee ninja using invisibility spells are actually viable now. A lot of the people take offense to this, but do note that both mages and adepts were nerfed in comparison to mundanes. While initiative enhancement got 0.5 PP cheaper, social and unarmed adepts (the two greatest strengths of the adept in 4e) are outclassed now by wareuser. Spells got nerfed both in damage and drain.

Thank you. I've been trying to figure out in short my feelings on SR5 and your points 1 & 2 summed them up neatly (and also helps in understanding why a friend of mine loves this edition; SR3 was his baby).

As for point 3, I actually like what was done to Mystics. My first understanding of them in SR4 was this was how they were, which was obviously wrong.

And some may not like SR5 ever. In the D&D editions, 4th is still my least favorite of them all and I'd rather still play 3.#, or even 2nd Advanced. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/spin.gif)

[Draco18s]

And some may not like SR5 ever. In the D&D editions, 4th is still my least favorite of them all and I'd rather still play 3.#, or even 2nd Advanced. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/spin.gif)

4th is an amazing game.

It just isn't D&D.

[SpellBinder]

...
A number of things have come across oddly (the whole wireless bonus thing I like from a concept point of view, but feel it was implemented poorly), which isn't helped by the fluff reasons given.

My above mentioned friend once told me that the tech progress in Shadowrun went to the WiFi but back to the cable because of bandwidth constrictions during the SR3 time of the game. Hence why deckers needed to find a jackpoint in order to actually do any hacking.

For SR5, I think what's happened is that the WiFi got better on the bandwidth while the cabling went to the quality of 36.6k. Would explain now why a gunslinger can't wire his smartgun to his commlink to his goggles in 2075 like they used to in 2055. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/wobble.gif)

Added: Regarding D&D4, I'll concede to that Draco18s. I have honestly played many of the Wednesday Night D&D games, and found them much more to be a board game than an RPG. Roleplaying them was hard to do, and it wasn't just the rest of those at the table.

[Draco18s]

My above mentioned friend once told me that the tech progress in Shadowrun went to the WiFi but back to the cable because of bandwidth constrictions during the SR3 time of the game. Hence why deckers needed to find a jackpoint in order to actually do any hacking.

For SR5, I think what's happened is that the WiFi got better on the bandwidth while the cabling went to the quality of 36.6k. Would explain now why a gunslinger can't wire his smartgun to his commlink to his goggles in 2075 like they used to in 2055. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/wobble.gif)

Which would imply that smartlinks now use More Data to do the exact same thing. Why doesn't a 2050's smartlink work Just Fine Today?
(Comparisons can't really be made to the internet, because the type of content sent over it today is not the same as it was in 1995--there is massively more javascript involved, more images, larger images, and larger-file-size images* as well as other embedded content)

*PNG vs. JPG

[Elfenlied]

As for point 3, I actually like what was done to Mystics. My first understanding of them in SR4 was this was how they were, which was obviously wrong.

I also like Mystic Adepts in SR5, and do not consider them unbalanced. A lot of it has to do with kneejerk reactions, since Mystic Adepts (barring tremendous optimization and Heightened Concentration) were the shafted archetype of 4e, and now they are finally good in SR5. People have just gotten used to them being subpar.

[White Buffalo]

Why doesn't a 2050's smartlink work Just Fine Today?

For the same reason I can't use a TV I bought 10 years ago, it was analog, now the US brodcasts in digital, soon it'll use the matrix, then matrix 2.0... Tech marches on and older devices get left in the dust. They may "work just fine" but after support lapses they're hard to maintain. Good luck keeping a 2055 smartlink functinal in glow city for 20 years.

[Eratosthenes]

For the same reason I can't use a TV I bought 10 years ago, it was analog, now the US brodcasts in digital, soon it'll use the matrix, then matrix 2.0... Tech marches on and older devices get left in the dust. They may "work just fine" but after support lapses they're hard to maintain. Good luck keeping a 2055 smartlink functinal in glow city for 20 years.

To add on to that, the wireless protocols could very well have been changed, so that you'd need some sort of translation service/program just for that old smartlink (even the one from 2 years ago) to work, which induces its own latency in the program, so that it's aiming leads are jsut a little bit slow or off.

I'm not understanding a lot of the fuss about the wifi bonuses. Just today there was an article about how Samsung smart TV's had no security, and hackers could use the built in cameras in the TV's to watch people. Likewise, many of the apps/devices out there that enable someone to control devices in their houses are completely open to hackers.

[DeathStrobe]

I think wireless is just so cheap in SR5 that manufacturers say, why not put it in everything?

As for why cyber can't use DNI, I think that cyberware manufacturers want a quicker surgery and less invasive cyberware, so make everything wireless, so they don't have to run wires all through your body. This was probably something they were doing after Crash 2.0 in SR4, but most people cheesed the always on rules of SR4 anyway, so it never came up.

[Eratosthenes]

I think wireless is just so cheap in SR5 that manufacturers say, why not put it in everything?

As for why cyber can't use DNI, I think that cyberware manufacturers want a quicker surgery and less invasive cyberware, so make everything wireless, so they don't have to run wires all through your body. This was probably something they were doing after Crash 2.0 in SR4, but most people cheesed the always on rules of SR4 anyway, so it never came up.

I think a lot of the talk about wireless vs. DNI seems to make DNI out to be this Uber-networking system. I think DNI is probably only useful for brain-to-cyber functionality; it has no use in trying to get multiple pieces of cyber to talk to one another.

My cyberarm knows how to interpret commands from my brain, for movement and functionality, and can send sensory signals/tactile sensations. But complex machine commands would be beyond the "DNI". Your nervous system is not a bunch of wires.

Likewise with Skinlink: I can't see how complex machine commands could reliably be delivered via the "skin". Too much noise.

[DWC]

Except that skinlinking can be done today. Right now, on 02-Aug-2013, data can be transmitted using the body's natural magnetic field.

Also, your nervous system really is just a bunch of wires. It's not 14 gauge multistrand copper, but it serves the exact same purpose of allowing a modulating flow of electrons to transmit data from nerve ending to brain and back out to muscle tissue. If the concern is interfering with the data already being transmitted through the nervous system, then any implanted device has to have its own data connection back to the brain.

If everything implanted doesn't already have a hardwired direct neural interface, how do you turn the wireless back on?

[Jhaiisiin]

A button that says "Wireless on/off"? (IMG:style_emoticons/default/wink.gif)

[quentra]

Let's also add the jacked up cost of 'ware in addition to the retardedly low payscale rules. Hey sammy, you wanted those alpha WR3 at some point, right? Wizflash chrome? HAHAHAHA NO F U

[Umidori]

As for point 3, I actually like what was done to Mystics. My first understanding of them in SR4 was this was how they were, which was obviously wrong.

I also like Mystic Adepts in SR5, and do not consider them unbalanced. A lot of it has to do with kneejerk reactions, since Mystic Adepts (barring tremendous optimization and Heightened Concentration) were the shafted archetype of 4e, and now they are finally good in SR5. People have just gotten used to them being subpar.

Previously, a Mystic Adept who paid for a Magic of 6 got exactly that many points to split between their Spells and Powers. So at most, you could leave chargen with 3 points worth of each, and as you progressed in kept having to choose which aspect of your magic to improve. It was a fair tradeoff, in that you got the same amount of points of magic as anyone else, you just had the option of splitting them between two different forms of benefits.

In SR5, a Mystic Adept who pays for a Magic of 6 gets that many points for their Spells, and then can buy another six points worth of Powers for laughable prices. Consequently they can leave chargen with 12 total points worth of magic, for the cost of 12 Karma (being increased to 30 in errata, big whoop), and the minor annoyances of having to buy Astral Perception and being unable to Astrally Project (or at least not without the help of a dose of Shade).

And you're both fine with this? You're both fine with a character getting 100% of the benefit of being an adept, plus 97% of the benefit of being a magician, and being flat out more powerful and valuable than either by being essentially as strong as both of them combined, at chargen, for the cost of 12 or 30 Karma?

I bet I know what character type you two plan to play, huh? Wait! No, let me guess! ...Riggers! Am I right? (IMG:style_emoticons/default/wink.gif)

~Umi

[Jhaiisiin]

Just means that you have to find other ways of acquiring the ware.

[quentra]

Just means that you have to find other ways of acquiring the ware.

You mean rely on GM fiat instead of being able to go to your streetdoc contact and buy it with the 'yen you've been saving up, hm? Man, I hope everyone has nice GMs.

[Umidori]

Given the amount of outrage on Dumpshock, and the number of us who are GMs, maybe that'll be the case. Shouldn't have to be that way, but who knows?

~Umi

[quentra]

Given the amount of outrage on Dumpshock, and the number of us who are GMs, maybe that'll be the case. Shouldn't have to be that way, but who knows?

~Umi

Sure, but from a design perspective it shouldn't be that way. Samurai shouldn't have to play 'Mother May I' in terms of core archetype advancement any more than mages should. But with the obscene costs for 'ware right now, if one was to use the RAW payscales, they honestly would see barely any upgrades.

[Umidori]

Yep. Thus the outrage.

~Umi