Help - Search - Members - Calendar
Full Version: Newbie confused with all the fuss
Dumpshock Forums > Discussion > Shadowrun
Pages: 1, 2
Archmike
That's a newbie to the forums not shadowrun ^_^ Been playing SR since 2nd ed and if you think 5th is a mess try playing that! nyahnyah.gif

On that topic why do people think 5th is a mess? Reading all the post about the place people seem very disgruntled about 5th but I have to admit to not seeing the issue. Maybe I'm too much a cup half full guy? I quite like the new wireless ideas. They're a nice litle thing that wasn't there before yet there seems to be a lot of hate about the place for them.

So yeah why do i keep seeing that the rules are crap? What am i missing? frown.gif
Elfenlied
The edition is still new, so many people will rant about perceived changes/imbalances they are unhappy with. I expect the complains to die down once people get some actual playtime in.

That said, here are some of the issues:
1) Implementation of Wireless bonuses: In order to make the decker archetype more involved in combat and outside of pure VR matrix adventures in general, a lot of gear had bonuses introduced that only apply while the gear in question is connected to the matrix. The main issue about this is that the majority of these bonuses applied in older editions without matrix connection, so many perceive this as an unnecessary nerf. From a gamist point of view, I think this change is actually good (even if the implementation is wanting), since 4e allowed almost complete hacking immunity through metagaming and gear choices. This is by far the most discussed issue.
2) Technology rollback: SR5 is designed to appeal to fans of older editions, so little progress of what was shown first in 4e is implemented. In fact, technology took a giant step back. Hacking requires cyberdecks again, nanotech had a bridge dropped on it and skinlink miraculously disappeared.
3) Mystic Adepts: They get to be a true hybrid between mages and adepts without sacrificing 50% of each. In fact, archetypes such as the melee ninja using invisibility spells are actually viable now. A lot of the people take offense to this, but do note that both mages and adepts were nerfed in comparison to mundanes. While initiative enhancement got 0.5 PP cheaper, social and unarmed adepts (the two greatest strengths of the adept in 4e) are outclassed now by wareuser. Spells got nerfed both in damage and drain.

Archmike
Thanks, you knwo i totally hadn't clicked the cyberdeck thing. So used to that being there over the editions and never played a decker that it totally escaped me. Very weird that. Have the said why?

I guess you could just treat a deck as an AR interface instead of an actual physical deck? That would bring it back up to date. Nano/skin link stuff i reckon will return with the 5th equivalent or arsenal/unwired/hoobedobedo.

Still some food for thought there tah smile.gif
Jhaiisiin
The in game explanation is that comlink protocols are no longer sufficient to effectively hack, and you need more power than can be jammed in a comlink sized unit.

Out of game, decks were always very SR, so chances are nostalgia played a part in their return. That said, I'm happy the decks are back. I didn't like that just anyone with a 2 nuyen 'link could start up script kiddy nonsense and be a "hacker".
DireRadiant
There's always the silent non posting majority. You never hear from them.

Except that they are buying SR5 and having a lot of fun. Poor them, busy playing and having fun instead of posting to Dumpshock.
Jaid
QUOTE (DireRadiant @ Aug 2 2013, 11:35 AM) *
There's always the silent non posting majority. You never hear from them.

Except that they are buying SR5 and having a lot of fun. Poor them, busy playing and having fun instead of posting to Dumpshock.


what makes you think i'm not having fun complaining on dumpshock? wink.gif

that said, i agree that mostly SR5 is pretty good. they did a lot of things that i agree with. but they also did a few things that i think are really, really dumb. the *idea* of online bonuses i don't mind, but the specific online bonuses they chose just seem completely nonsensical and arbitrary. somehow, googling your own equipment's on/off switch is faster than just using the ARO located in your HUD, for example. makes no sense.
Draco18s
QUOTE (Archmike @ Aug 2 2013, 03:09 AM) *
Have the said why?


Mostly its one of those things that Players said they liked that aspect of 3rd and missed it in 4th.

5th has a lot of retconns, most of which are for gamist reasons (which is totally cool in my book: if a particular ruleset ended up being Bad for the Table, then do away with it).

A number of things have come across oddly (the whole wireless bonus thing I like from a concept point of view, but feel it was implemented poorly), which isn't helped by the fluff reasons given.
SpellBinder
QUOTE (Elfenlied @ Aug 2 2013, 12:49 AM) *
The edition is still new, so many people will rant about perceived changes/imbalances they are unhappy with. I expect the complains to die down once people get some actual playtime in.

That said, here are some of the issues:
1) Implementation of Wireless bonuses: In order to make the decker archetype more involved in combat and outside of pure VR matrix adventures in general, a lot of gear had bonuses introduced that only apply while the gear in question is connected to the matrix. The main issue about this is that the majority of these bonuses applied in older editions without matrix connection, so many perceive this as an unnecessary nerf. From a gamist point of view, I think this change is actually good (even if the implementation is wanting), since 4e allowed almost complete hacking immunity through metagaming and gear choices. This is by far the most discussed issue.
2) Technology rollback: SR5 is designed to appeal to fans of older editions, so little progress of what was shown first in 4e is implemented. In fact, technology took a giant step back. Hacking requires cyberdecks again, nanotech had a bridge dropped on it and skinlink miraculously disappeared.
3) Mystic Adepts: They get to be a true hybrid between mages and adepts without sacrificing 50% of each. In fact, archetypes such as the melee ninja using invisibility spells are actually viable now. A lot of the people take offense to this, but do note that both mages and adepts were nerfed in comparison to mundanes. While initiative enhancement got 0.5 PP cheaper, social and unarmed adepts (the two greatest strengths of the adept in 4e) are outclassed now by wareuser. Spells got nerfed both in damage and drain.
Thank you. I've been trying to figure out in short my feelings on SR5 and your points 1 & 2 summed them up neatly (and also helps in understanding why a friend of mine loves this edition; SR3 was his baby).

As for point 3, I actually like what was done to Mystics. My first understanding of them in SR4 was this was how they were, which was obviously wrong.

And some may not like SR5 ever. In the D&D editions, 4th is still my least favorite of them all and I'd rather still play 3.#, or even 2nd Advanced. spin.gif
Draco18s
QUOTE (SpellBinder @ Aug 2 2013, 10:54 AM) *
And some may not like SR5 ever. In the D&D editions, 4th is still my least favorite of them all and I'd rather still play 3.#, or even 2nd Advanced. spin.gif


4th is an amazing game.

It just isn't D&D.
SpellBinder
QUOTE (Draco18s @ Aug 2 2013, 08:53 AM) *
...
A number of things have come across oddly (the whole wireless bonus thing I like from a concept point of view, but feel it was implemented poorly), which isn't helped by the fluff reasons given.
My above mentioned friend once told me that the tech progress in Shadowrun went to the WiFi but back to the cable because of bandwidth constrictions during the SR3 time of the game. Hence why deckers needed to find a jackpoint in order to actually do any hacking.

For SR5, I think what's happened is that the WiFi got better on the bandwidth while the cabling went to the quality of 36.6k. Would explain now why a gunslinger can't wire his smartgun to his commlink to his goggles in 2075 like they used to in 2055. wobble.gif

Added: Regarding D&D4, I'll concede to that Draco18s. I have honestly played many of the Wednesday Night D&D games, and found them much more to be a board game than an RPG. Roleplaying them was hard to do, and it wasn't just the rest of those at the table.
Draco18s
QUOTE (SpellBinder @ Aug 2 2013, 10:57 AM) *
My above mentioned friend once told me that the tech progress in Shadowrun went to the WiFi but back to the cable because of bandwidth constrictions during the SR3 time of the game. Hence why deckers needed to find a jackpoint in order to actually do any hacking.

For SR5, I think what's happened is that the WiFi got better on the bandwidth while the cabling went to the quality of 36.6k. Would explain now why a gunslinger can't wire his smartgun to his commlink to his goggles in 2075 like they used to in 2055. wobble.gif


Which would imply that smartlinks now use More Data to do the exact same thing. Why doesn't a 2050's smartlink work Just Fine Today?
(Comparisons can't really be made to the internet, because the type of content sent over it today is not the same as it was in 1995--there is massively more javascript involved, more images, larger images, and larger-file-size images* as well as other embedded content)

*PNG vs. JPG
Elfenlied
QUOTE (SpellBinder @ Aug 2 2013, 04:54 PM) *
As for point 3, I actually like what was done to Mystics. My first understanding of them in SR4 was this was how they were, which was obviously wrong.


I also like Mystic Adepts in SR5, and do not consider them unbalanced. A lot of it has to do with kneejerk reactions, since Mystic Adepts (barring tremendous optimization and Heightened Concentration) were the shafted archetype of 4e, and now they are finally good in SR5. People have just gotten used to them being subpar.
White Buffalo
QUOTE (Draco18s @ Aug 2 2013, 04:02 PM) *
Why doesn't a 2050's smartlink work Just Fine Today?


For the same reason I can't use a TV I bought 10 years ago, it was analog, now the US brodcasts in digital, soon it'll use the matrix, then matrix 2.0... Tech marches on and older devices get left in the dust. They may "work just fine" but after support lapses they're hard to maintain. Good luck keeping a 2055 smartlink functinal in glow city for 20 years.
Eratosthenes
QUOTE (White Buffalo @ Aug 2 2013, 12:10 PM) *
For the same reason I can't use a TV I bought 10 years ago, it was analog, now the US brodcasts in digital, soon it'll use the matrix, then matrix 2.0... Tech marches on and older devices get left in the dust. They may "work just fine" but after support lapses they're hard to maintain. Good luck keeping a 2055 smartlink functinal in glow city for 20 years.


To add on to that, the wireless protocols could very well have been changed, so that you'd need some sort of translation service/program just for that old smartlink (even the one from 2 years ago) to work, which induces its own latency in the program, so that it's aiming leads are jsut a little bit slow or off.

I'm not understanding a lot of the fuss about the wifi bonuses. Just today there was an article about how Samsung smart TV's had no security, and hackers could use the built in cameras in the TV's to watch people. Likewise, many of the apps/devices out there that enable someone to control devices in their houses are completely open to hackers.
DeathStrobe
I think wireless is just so cheap in SR5 that manufacturers say, why not put it in everything?

As for why cyber can't use DNI, I think that cyberware manufacturers want a quicker surgery and less invasive cyberware, so make everything wireless, so they don't have to run wires all through your body. This was probably something they were doing after Crash 2.0 in SR4, but most people cheesed the always on rules of SR4 anyway, so it never came up.
Eratosthenes
QUOTE (DeathStrobe @ Aug 2 2013, 12:53 PM) *
I think wireless is just so cheap in SR5 that manufacturers say, why not put it in everything?

As for why cyber can't use DNI, I think that cyberware manufacturers want a quicker surgery and less invasive cyberware, so make everything wireless, so they don't have to run wires all through your body. This was probably something they were doing after Crash 2.0 in SR4, but most people cheesed the always on rules of SR4 anyway, so it never came up.


I think a lot of the talk about wireless vs. DNI seems to make DNI out to be this Uber-networking system. I think DNI is probably only useful for brain-to-cyber functionality; it has no use in trying to get multiple pieces of cyber to talk to one another.

My cyberarm knows how to interpret commands from my brain, for movement and functionality, and can send sensory signals/tactile sensations. But complex machine commands would be beyond the "DNI". Your nervous system is not a bunch of wires.

Likewise with Skinlink: I can't see how complex machine commands could reliably be delivered via the "skin". Too much noise.
DWC
Except that skinlinking can be done today. Right now, on 02-Aug-2013, data can be transmitted using the body's natural magnetic field.

Also, your nervous system really is just a bunch of wires. It's not 14 gauge multistrand copper, but it serves the exact same purpose of allowing a modulating flow of electrons to transmit data from nerve ending to brain and back out to muscle tissue. If the concern is interfering with the data already being transmitted through the nervous system, then any implanted device has to have its own data connection back to the brain.

If everything implanted doesn't already have a hardwired direct neural interface, how do you turn the wireless back on?
Jhaiisiin
A button that says "Wireless on/off"? wink.gif
quentra
Let's also add the jacked up cost of 'ware in addition to the retardedly low payscale rules. Hey sammy, you wanted those alpha WR3 at some point, right? Wizflash chrome? HAHAHAHA NO F U
Umidori
QUOTE (SpellBinder @ Aug 2 2013, 08:54 AM) *
As for point 3, I actually like what was done to Mystics. My first understanding of them in SR4 was this was how they were, which was obviously wrong.

QUOTE (Elfenlied @ Aug 2 2013, 09:07 AM) *
I also like Mystic Adepts in SR5, and do not consider them unbalanced. A lot of it has to do with kneejerk reactions, since Mystic Adepts (barring tremendous optimization and Heightened Concentration) were the shafted archetype of 4e, and now they are finally good in SR5. People have just gotten used to them being subpar.

Previously, a Mystic Adept who paid for a Magic of 6 got exactly that many points to split between their Spells and Powers. So at most, you could leave chargen with 3 points worth of each, and as you progressed in kept having to choose which aspect of your magic to improve. It was a fair tradeoff, in that you got the same amount of points of magic as anyone else, you just had the option of splitting them between two different forms of benefits.

In SR5, a Mystic Adept who pays for a Magic of 6 gets that many points for their Spells, and then can buy another six points worth of Powers for laughable prices. Consequently they can leave chargen with 12 total points worth of magic, for the cost of 12 Karma (being increased to 30 in errata, big whoop), and the minor annoyances of having to buy Astral Perception and being unable to Astrally Project (or at least not without the help of a dose of Shade).

And you're both fine with this? You're both fine with a character getting 100% of the benefit of being an adept, plus 97% of the benefit of being a magician, and being flat out more powerful and valuable than either by being essentially as strong as both of them combined, at chargen, for the cost of 12 or 30 Karma?

I bet I know what character type you two plan to play, huh? Wait! No, let me guess! ...Riggers! Am I right? wink.gif

~Umi
Jhaiisiin
Just means that you have to find other ways of acquiring the ware.
quentra
QUOTE (Jhaiisiin @ Aug 2 2013, 01:33 PM) *
Just means that you have to find other ways of acquiring the ware.


You mean rely on GM fiat instead of being able to go to your streetdoc contact and buy it with the 'yen you've been saving up, hm? Man, I hope everyone has nice GMs.
Umidori
Given the amount of outrage on Dumpshock, and the number of us who are GMs, maybe that'll be the case. Shouldn't have to be that way, but who knows?

~Umi
quentra
QUOTE (Umidori @ Aug 2 2013, 01:37 PM) *
Given the amount of outrage on Dumpshock, and the number of us who are GMs, maybe that'll be the case. Shouldn't have to be that way, but who knows?

~Umi


Sure, but from a design perspective it shouldn't be that way. Samurai shouldn't have to play 'Mother May I' in terms of core archetype advancement any more than mages should. But with the obscene costs for 'ware right now, if one was to use the RAW payscales, they honestly would see barely any upgrades.
Umidori
Yep. Thus the outrage.

~Umi
Rystefn
QUOTE (Umidori @ Aug 2 2013, 05:33 PM) *
Previously, a Mystic Adept who paid for a Magic of 6 got exactly that many points to split between their Spells and Powers. So at most, you could leave chargen with 3 points worth of each, and as you progressed in kept having to choose which aspect of your magic to improve. It was a fair tradeoff, in that you got the same amount of points of magic as anyone else, you just had the option of splitting them between two different forms of benefits.

In SR5, a Mystic Adept who pays for a Magic of 6 gets that many points for their Spells, and then can buy another six points worth of Powers for laughable prices. Consequently they can leave chargen with 12 total points worth of magic, for the cost of 12 Karma (being increased to 30 in errata, big whoop), and the minor annoyances of having to buy Astral Perception and being unable to Astrally Project (or at least not without the help of a dose of Shade).

And you're both fine with this? You're both fine with a character getting 100% of the benefit of being an adept, plus 97% of the benefit of being a magician, and being flat out more powerful and valuable than either by being essentially as strong as both of them combined, at chargen, for the cost of 12 or 30 Karma?

I bet I know what character type you two plan to play, huh? Wait! No, let me guess! ...Riggers! Am I right? wink.gif

~Umi


You know, you sound a lot like the people who complained about multiclassing in AD&D. a 2/2/2 fighter/mage/thief wasn't anywhere near the capability of a level 6 single class, and a 3/3 Magic 6 Mystic Adept in SR4 wasn't anywhere near the capability of a Magic 6 mage or adept.
quentra
QUOTE (Rystefn @ Aug 2 2013, 01:43 PM) *
You know, you sound a lot like the people who complained about multiclassing in AD&D. a 2/2/2 fighter/mage/thief wasn't anywhere near the capability of a level 6 single class, and a 3/3 Magic 6 Mystic Adept in SR4 wasn't anywhere near the capability of a Magic 6 mage or adept.


Which is how it should be. Duh.
Stahlseele
QUOTE (Umidori @ Aug 2 2013, 07:41 PM) *
Yep. Thus the outrage.

~Umi

Don't forget the abbyssmal Quality.
Jhaiisiin
Of course, you could always up payments on runs or choose to have ware installed instead of payment, etc etc.
quentra
Right, but that would be a houserule now. Since we have hard numbers to put to run payoffs. By RAW. And those numbers are damn near gamebreakingly low.
Umidori
QUOTE (Rystefn @ Aug 2 2013, 10:43 AM) *
You know, you sound a lot like the people who complained about multiclassing in AD&D. a 2/2/2 fighter/mage/thief wasn't anywhere near the capability of a level 6 single class, and a 3/3 Magic 6 Mystic Adept in SR4 wasn't anywhere near the capability of a Magic 6 mage or adept.

Except that Mystic Adepts in SR5 aren't like Multi-Class characters. To get your example of a 2/2/2 fighter/mage/thief requires 6 Levels worth of Experience split between three classes. Imagine if instead of being 2/2/2 with that amount of Experience, they were a 6/6/6! They pay exactly what the Level 6 single class Mage pays, but get the full benefits of additional whole classes at the same power level!

Clearly broken, yeah? That's my complaint. So no, I don't sound like someone complaining about multiclassing in AD&D - I'm actually advocating the concept of having to split your power between multiple classes, as we had to in 4E!

Why play a pure Magician or Adept in SR5 when you could play as a Mystic Adept with no real downside? The only time being a Magician would be preferable is if your character concept revolves around being able to Astrally Project, and there's literally no time whatsoever being a mere Adept would be preferable.

~Umi
Jhaiisiin
SR4 was set aflame for lack of numbers, now we have numbers and they're not to the level you want. So why are you not still just making up better numbers?

Also, as a point of reference, if you have to steal something, are fighting against superior numbers of professional npcs running dice pools of 12+, but still pulled it off with impressive speed, you're looking at a pay of 18k per runner on that mission, minium, up to 36k per runner. And possibly expenses on top of that, if the GM is lenient.

That's too small a payment for you though? I've had to do runs more complicated than that for less in SR4 and previous. How much money was your GM dumping on you?

Also, regarding Mystic Adepts, that's already been stated that it's being addressed, so maybe we can set that topic aside.
SpellBinder
Sorry Jhaiisiin, just feel like I gotta respond since I feel I was directly asked:
QUOTE (Umidori @ Aug 2 2013, 11:33 AM) *
Previously, a Mystic Adept who paid for a Magic of 6 got exactly that many points to split between their Spells and Powers. So at most, you could leave chargen with 3 points worth of each, and as you progressed in kept having to choose which aspect of your magic to improve. It was a fair tradeoff, in that you got the same amount of points of magic as anyone else, you just had the option of splitting them between two different forms of benefits.

In SR5, a Mystic Adept who pays for a Magic of 6 gets that many points for their Spells, and then can buy another six points worth of Powers for laughable prices. Consequently they can leave chargen with 12 total points worth of magic, for the cost of 12 Karma (being increased to 30 in errata, big whoop), and the minor annoyances of having to buy Astral Perception and being unable to Astrally Project (or at least not without the help of a dose of Shade).

And you're both fine with this? You're both fine with a character getting 100% of the benefit of being an adept, plus 97% of the benefit of being a magician, and being flat out more powerful and valuable than either by being essentially as strong as both of them combined, at chargen, for the cost of 12 or 30 Karma?

I bet I know what character type you two plan to play, huh? Wait! No, let me guess! ...Riggers! Am I right? wink.gif

~Umi
To be perfectly honest, yes. Yes, I'm fine with Mystic Adepts not having Astral Projection and Magic -1 in additional Adept Power Points (after adjusting for the purchase of Astral Perception) for an extra 30 karma in this version of Deckerrun.

I've said my peace for this in this thread.
Umidori
QUOTE (Jhaiisiin @ Aug 2 2013, 11:46 AM) *
That's too small a payment for you though? I've had to do runs more complicated than that for less in SR4 and previous. How much money was your GM dumping on you?

You can't just compare the flat Nuyen Per Mission reward between editions - you also have to factor in the steeply inflated prices for certain pieces of gear in SR5, notably cyberware. If you make 50% more nuyen per run in SR5, but the gear you need to buy now costs 250% more than it did, you're losing out.

Cost of living is a very real thing - if you can earn $100,000 a year working in one country and only $10,000 a year working in another, but if it costs you $95,000 dollars in yearly expenses to live in Country A and only $5,000 to live in Country B, you end up with a larger net gain in Country B! Even though at the end of the day you come away with $5,000 with either option, in Country B that's enough to live on for another whole year without having to work, whereas in Country A, it's a mere 1/19th of a year's expenses! So yeah, that $10,000 a year job is more profitable than a $100,000 a year one somewhere else!

QUOTE (Jhaiisiin @ Aug 2 2013, 11:46 AM) *
Also, regarding Mystic Adepts, that's already been stated that it's being addressed, so maybe we can set that topic aside.

As the way in which it has been stated that it will be addressed is, to many, not a sufficient measure, no I'd say that we can't set the topic aside, as many people still have legitimate grievances with the subject and how it is going to be handled. If you personally don't want to read about it for whatever reason, feel free to browse other threads.

~Umi
Umidori
QUOTE (SpellBinder @ Aug 2 2013, 12:01 PM) *
Sorry Jhaiisiin, just feel like I gotta respond since I feel I was directly asked:To be perfectly honest, yes. Yes, I'm fine with Mystic Adepts not having Astral Projection and Magic -1 in additional Adept Power Points (after adjusting for the purchase of Astral Perception) for an extra 30 karma in this version of Deckerrun.

I've said my peace for this in this thread.

Then you either flat out don't care about blatantly overpowered character types, or you're not understanding the full implications of this. But since you don't want to continue the discussion, I guess that's the end of it.

~Umi
quentra
Let's go by the actual numbers in the book. You start with a base payout of 3000 nuyen per player. Then you increase that by 100 nuyen per net hit on the nego test. Let's assume the face is awesome and give him 16 dice to roll against the Johnson's 12. That's about 2 net hits, so now we're up to 3.2k per runner. Now onto the multiplier. Let's assume the highest DP of the opposition is also 16 (the big bad HTR lieutenant or something.) The multiplier is x4. Then you add +1 if the runners are outnumbered 3-1 in a combat situation (So for a five-man crew, they need to face 15 fucking guys in a combat scenario.) We'll skip that, because we're not trying to TPK the party. It's another +1 for PR 4 and higher enemies if they're outnumbered 2-1, so they have to face 10 guys of 12+ DP in combat scenario. Once again, we're not trying to TPK the party. At some point they'll run across a pack of Hellhounds (which also have a good chance of killing them), but we'll raise the multiplier by +1 to 5. They do it quickly, risking public attention, and face a well-known corp specop dude (the badarse HTR lieutenant.) That'll raise the multiplier by +3 to 8. 3.2k times 8? 25.6k per runner.

And that's for a job where they not only need to be awesomely quick, sneaky, risk getting arrested or publicly known, face a dude with equivalent DP and 12+ DP mooks, not to mention a pack (what counts as a pack? Let's say six Hellhounds), and they're also risking being delayed long enough to get HTR on their arse.

Now let's look at what it costs for a chargen samurai to upgrade from alpha WR1 to alpha WR2. Alpha WR1 = 46800. Alpha WR2 = 178800. It will take the same about 7 runs to upgrade - and that's assuming he doesn't spend money on /anything else/. (Like tutorsofts for his skills, rent, guns, ammo, gear, bribes, other 'ware etc. etc. etc.) And don't forget if they don't actually engage the badarse HTR lieutenant in combat (cause he's a badarse and the runners enjoy breathing air through the holes god gave them), then their multiplier starts at +3 instead of a +4, lowering the payment even more.

So yeah. That's a bit retarded.
Stahlseele
And if you are a Troll?
Tough, you pay 50% more on all Ware.
And as a Dorf, you can't see in the Dark anymore, because you lost Thermographic Vision.
Elfenlied
QUOTE (Umidori @ Aug 2 2013, 06:33 PM) *
Previously, a Mystic Adept who paid for a Magic of 6 got exactly that many points to split between their Spells and Powers. So at most, you could leave chargen with 3 points worth of each, and as you progressed in kept having to choose which aspect of your magic to improve. It was a fair tradeoff, in that you got the same amount of points of magic as anyone else, you just had the option of splitting them between two different forms of benefits.

In SR5, a Mystic Adept who pays for a Magic of 6 gets that many points for their Spells, and then can buy another six points worth of Powers for laughable prices. Consequently they can leave chargen with 12 total points worth of magic, for the cost of 12 Karma (being increased to 30 in errata, big whoop), and the minor annoyances of having to buy Astral Perception and being unable to Astrally Project (or at least not without the help of a dose of Shade).

And you're both fine with this? You're both fine with a character getting 100% of the benefit of being an adept, plus 97% of the benefit of being a magician, and being flat out more powerful and valuable than either by being essentially as strong as both of them combined, at chargen, for the cost of 12 or 30 Karma?


Let us not forget the opportunity cost of being practically married to Priority A Magic. Adepts can be done with much lower priority and can focus on physical attributes and skills, whereas the Mystic Adept is strechted very thin in regards to both. The Mystic Adept may have the same powerset as the Adept, but he has neither the skills nor the attributes to make the most of it. If he does, then his mage side seriously suffers. So no, they aren't getting 100% of what the Adept is getting. They are more like 150%, split as you please between mage and Adept, with a maximum of 90% efficiency on one side. Which seems fine, since 50/50 split characters tend to not pull their weight unless everyone has low to average dicepools in your game (Hi, TJ!) Also, you seem to underestimate the value of astral projection. Not having to participate in the flesh on a run is a privilege only Riggers (and to a lesser degree hackers) had in 4e.

QUOTE (Umidori @ Aug 2 2013, 06:33 PM) *
I bet I know what character type you two plan to play, huh? Wait! No, let me guess! ...Riggers! Am I right? wink.gif

~Umi


Right now, I play a mundane Decker in one game and a Mystic Adept Ninja in another. I will pick up a Rigger as soon as the book with modding rules and and additional vehicles comes out. Vanilla Riggers just lack too many options right now.
Draco18s
QUOTE (SpellBinder @ Aug 2 2013, 02:01 PM) *
Sorry Jhaiisiin, just feel like I gotta respond since I feel I was directly asked:To be perfectly honest, yes. Yes, I'm fine with Mystic Adepts not having Astral Projection and Magic -1 in additional Adept Power Points (after adjusting for the purchase of Astral Perception) for an extra 30 karma in this version of Deckerrun.


Astral Projection
...or...
+2 armor +2 AGL + 1d6 iniative + 2 [weapon] skill

<exaggeration>Seems like a fair trade to me.</exaggeration>

QUOTE (Stahlseele @ Aug 2 2013, 02:09 PM) *
And if you are a Troll?
Tough, you pay 50% more on all Ware.
And as a Dorf, you can't see in the Dark anymore, because you lost Thermographic Vision.


Typo and... typo. Nice red herring.
Stahlseele
QUOTE (Draco18s @ Aug 2 2013, 09:44 PM) *
Astral Projection
...or...
+2 armor +2 AGL + 1d6 iniative + 2 [weapon] skill

<exaggeration>Seems like a fair trade to me.</exaggeration>



Typo and... typo. Nice red herring.

it's in the book, as long as there is no official errata i don't care if it's SUPPOSED TO BE A TYPO . .
it's RAW. everything else is a house-rule. it's bad quality control.
Draco18s
QUOTE (Stahlseele @ Aug 2 2013, 02:50 PM) *
it's in the book, as long as there is no official errata i don't care if it's SUPPOSED TO BE A TYPO . .
it's RAW. everything else is a house-rule. it's bad quality control.


Getting a little feisty aren't you?
DireRadiant
QUOTE (Umidori @ Aug 2 2013, 02:04 PM) *
Then you either flat out don't care about blatantly overpowered character types, or you're not understanding the full implications of this. But since you don't want to continue the discussion, I guess that's the end of it.

~Umi


I understand the full implications of Mystic Adepts in SR5 and I am ok with it.

All it takes for me to differ from you is a different value judgement them you have of the same fundamental facts.

My values differing from yours does not make either of us wrong.
DeathStrobe
QUOTE (Umidori @ Aug 2 2013, 01:04 PM) *
Then you either flat out don't care about blatantly overpowered character types, or you're not understanding the full implications of this. But since you don't want to continue the discussion, I guess that's the end of it.

~Umi

How is your Mystical Adept going to be a better physical fighter and a better spell slinger then the pure archetypes? The Mystical Adept still has to split his attributes across more stats and skills then a pure mage or adept. Sure the Mystic might get more magical tricks, but can they use all of them as well as the pure counterparts? Maybe if you munchkin into specializing in one role at the cost of your other role, but why would you want that, when it'd hurt you in other roles you might need your awaken character to fill?

Say I make a heavy mage mystical adept. I ignore my physical stats. I can't astrally project, which is going to make astral combat much more difficult, since I'm tied to my meat body. So say there is an astral mage tailing the team, now your only way to stop 'em is to cast stunbolt, and lets be honest, that's not a lot of damage, how do you really expect to do anything against that? The projecting mage will also be faster than you, since he's using his mental attributes while you are stuck using your dumped physical stats. You know, it just sounds like bad news. It sounds like the mystical adept is not going to be able to offer as good of astral security for the team as a pure mage.

The same is true for a physical heavy mystical adept. Sure they'll be faster than the mage heavy built, but their casting will be terrible since they had to dump their mental stats for physical ones. But lets say a pure adepts gets in a fight with our physical heavy mystic. We can pretty safely assume that the pure adept will have higher skills and possibly higher physical attributes than our mystic. But our mystic will have a few more tricks up his sleeve, maybe turn invisible or fly, maybe cast really weak fireballs. But I really don't think 7 or 8 dice on spell casting is going to cut it against our pure adept, who would is probably rolling 10-12 dice to dodge.
Draco18s
QUOTE (DireRadiant @ Aug 2 2013, 03:35 PM) *
My values differing from yours does not make either of us wrong.


So "Astral Projection" has the same value as "+2 armor +2 AGL +1d6 initiative and +2 [weapon] skill"?
DireRadiant
QUOTE (Draco18s @ Aug 2 2013, 03:39 PM) *
So "Astral Projection" has the same value as "+2 armor +2 AGL +1d6 initiative and +2 [weapon] skill"?


Easily. If you ever do astral legwork and recon and other stuff to help you avoid needing those specific things.
Draco18s
QUOTE (DireRadiant @ Aug 2 2013, 03:44 PM) *
Easily. If you ever do astral legwork and recon and other stuff to help you avoid needing those specific things.


Oh what's this here.
It appears to be a joint of Shade.
Hmm...For $200 I can easily avoid my ONE WEAKNESS.

Or what's this over here. A summoning skill.
It appears I can summon wholly astral entities to SCOUT FOR ME ANYWAY.
Isath
The thing with the wireless stuff is... it is not, that you couldn't use a cable.... they (the corps) just don't want you to.
PriorityKarmaGen
There's a lot of weird balance issues in this edition. Here's some of the ones people have found:

  1. The standard money per run is low and in some cases won't even cover expenses.
  2. Mystic adepts are very strong, as mentioned before. Even with PP at 5 karma a pop, the benefits they gain are more than worth it (Wired Reflexes 3 at no essence cost for 17.5 karma, roughly equivalent to 35,000 nuyen).
  3. Aspected magicians are weak compared with regular magicians. For all their downsides, aspected magicians are valued at only 5 less karma than regular magicians.
  4. Summoning is very strong and is most likely overpowered. Force 6-8 Spirits can easily be summoned and are as strong as a starter-level combat-focused character. In emergencies, it's possible for starter characters to summon Force 10-12 spirits which are incredibly powerful and difficult to kill.
  5. Control Thoughts/Actions and the associated AoE versions might be too powerful for their drain.
  6. Reagents can obviate the need for anything beyond Rating 1 Sustaining Foci. Cast your sustained spell at Rating 1 and use reagents to increase the limit. This is strong, but isn't necessarily overpowered.
  7. Technomancers compare oddly to magicians and might be a bit weak. The technomancer quality is valued at 20 karma more than magicians. Unlike mages, they have limited ability to affect things in the meat world. Complex forms tend to have higher drain and are weaker than comparable spells. Compare Puppeteer at L+4 to Control Thoughts at F-1. Compare Infusion of Attribute (which generally increases limits) at L+1 to Increase Attribute (which increases dice pools and derived statistics) at F-3. Compare Resonance Spike at L+0 and resisted by 2 attributes (how is it supposed to reliably deal more damage than the Technomancer takes in Fading?) to the single target direct damage spells at F-3 and resisted by 1 attribute. Also sprites accumulate OS which makes them riskier than spirits.
  8. Rigger drones are fragile and expensive. They only have a condition monitor of 6+1/2 Body (less than comparable metahumans), and their Body and Armor stats generally aren't very high. Since they're also expensive, riggers can't afford to keep replacing them with the low money payouts.
  9. This might be an errata issue, but currently vehicle crash damage is determined by the Body of the vehicle (maybe it should be the Body of the thing you crash into, somehow modified by your speed?). Crashing into a wall in a tank is fatal, while crashing into a wall on a scooter is a minor inconvenience.
  10. I think there are some wonky vehicle speeds.
  11. Grenades and indirect AoE spells can't be dodged. This makes them very deadly for anyone not built as a tank.
Tymeaus Jalynsfein
QUOTE (Elfenlied @ Aug 2 2013, 09:07 AM) *
I also like Mystic Adepts in SR5, and do not consider them unbalanced. A lot of it has to do with kneejerk reactions, since Mystic Adepts (barring tremendous optimization and Heightened Concentration) were the shafted archetype of 4e, and now they are finally good in SR5. People have just gotten used to them being subpar.


See, I NEVER thought that a Mystic Adept was subpar. The character I currently play may never have the bang for your buck of a Combat Mage or Adept Ninja, but he is massively useful, and can do things that the others only wished they were capable of. Our combat Mage still marvels at the sheer versatility of the character build, while he is still just plugging along with his Magic 6, Initiate 6 Badassery. He even has more Karma than the MysAd. It is all in how you play a character, in my opinion. THAT is what makes or breaks a concept.
Tymeaus Jalynsfein
QUOTE (White Buffalo @ Aug 2 2013, 09:10 AM) *
For the same reason I can't use a TV I bought 10 years ago, it was analog, now the US brodcasts in digital, soon it'll use the matrix, then matrix 2.0... Tech marches on and older devices get left in the dust. They may "work just fine" but after support lapses they're hard to maintain. Good luck keeping a 2055 smartlink functinal in glow city for 20 years.


Bought mine 10 years ago, it handles my Digital feed just fine. *shrug*
This is a "lo-fi" version of our main content. To view the full version with more information, formatting and images, please click here.
Dumpshock Forums © 2001-2012