Important Stats for a Tank Options

[craftomega]

As a newbie I am having trouble telling what stats are important to a tank. His history is that he is an Ex-bodyguard.

Right now I have

Body: 10
Agility: 7
Reaction: 7
Strength: 9
Willpower: 2
Logic: 2
Intuition: 2
Charisma: 2

I just don’t know how important the bottom 4 are.

Edit*** Updated once again. x3

[ Spoiler ]

ATTRIBUTES: A (24)
METATYPE: C (Edge 0) Ork
SKILLS: D (22/0)
RESOURCES: B (275,000)
MAGIC OR RESONANCE: E (0)

Body: 7 (10)
Agility: 5
Reaction: 7
Strength: 6
Willpower: 5
Logic: 3
Intuition: 5
Charisma: 3
Edge: 3

Cyber/Bioware

Bone Density Aug x3 +3 Damage Resist, +2 unarmed
Muscle augmentation x2 +2 Strength
Muscle toner +1 Agility
Synaptic booster + 1 reaction
Cybereyes (Flare compensation, Low-light vision, Smartlink, Thermographic vision, Vision magnification)
Sleep regulator
Symbiotes

SKILLS

6 Unarmed
3 Sneaking
5 Automatics
3 Gymnastics
4 Perception
1 Pilot Ground Vehicle

N English
2 Or’zet
2 Mr. Johnson
4 Security Procedures
2 Safehouse Locations
2 Sociology
2 Psychology
2 Biology

QUALITIES
QUICK HEALER -3
HIGH PAIN TOLERANCEx3 - 21
UNSTEADY HANDS + 7

Items
COMMLINKS Renraku Sensei
1 fake SIN
Subvocal mic
Micro-transceiver
Survival kit
Gecko tape gloves
Rappelling gloves
Low Lifestyle
Handheld Sensor
Resperator
Restraints Metal x5
Restraints Metal x40
Medkit
Medkit supplies x6
Docwagon Contract Basic

Weapons/Armor

Shock gloves
Owner and carry license
Ballistic shield
Owner and carry license
FN-HAR
Owner and carry license
Silencer
Smartgun system top
Bipod
300 Cassless Rifle Ammo
70 Explosive Rifle rounds
4 clips
Ares Crusader II
Owner and carry license
Quick-draw holster
300 Caseless Machine Pistol Ammo
40 Explosive Machine Pistol rounds
4 clips
Silencer
Combat Jacket
Lined Coat
Helmet

This post has been edited by craftomega: Aug 6 2013, 03:57 PM

[FuelDrop]

I just don’t know how important the bottom 4 are.

Pretty much vital.
Willpower is how you resist the stunbolts tanks attract, and also increases your stun track.
Logic helps resist mind control (in 5th) and improves a LOT of skills.
Intuition affects initiative and perception, vital to act fast and avoid ambushes. Also helps with being streetwise, and avoiding attacks.
Charisma is arguably less important to a dedicated tank, but when it comes down to it not everything in shadowrun can be brute forced through. This is where charisma comes in, and can save your hide by avoiding fights entirely. Also helps with intimidation.

Dumping mental stats also raises the question "Why are we engaging in dangerous crime with this weak-willed moron?" from your fellow players.

[craftomega]

Pretty much vital.
Willpower is how you resist the stunbolts tanks attract, and also increases your stun track.
Logic helps resist mind control (in 5th) and improves a LOT of skills.
Intuition affects initiative and perception, vital to act fast and avoid ambushes. Also helps with being streetwise, and avoiding attacks.
Charisma is arguably less important to a dedicated tank, but when it comes down to it not everything in shadowrun can be brute forced through. This is where charisma comes in, and can save your hide by avoiding fights entirely. Also helps with intimidation.

Dumping mental stats also raises the question "Why are we engaging in dangerous crime with this weak-willed moron?" from your fellow players.

So how would you recommend I roll my stats?

[FuelDrop]

So how would you recommend I roll my stats?

Well, what's your priority for attributes? You're obviously using 'ware or magic to boost, and you're playing a troll or orc.

I'd recommend that you up your willpower to a minimum of 3 (bringing your stun track to 10, and you will take a lot of stun if you're a tank [lots of armour = bullets do stun]).
ditto on your logic, for the boost to your mental limit and vital first aid skill.

Intuition should be 5. Increased initiative, dodge and perception? Yes.

Charisma can afford to stay as is, but understand that you'll be relying on other people to negotiate pay, sell loot, buy new stuff, all that jazz. do not piss off the group face or you will be paying an extra hunk of cash on all your new gear because your relying on your fixer.

Drop body and use 'ware to boost damage soak if you can, as body no longer effects encumbrance. Unless you're planning on using close combat a lot you can afford to drop strength a bit, though for high recoil weapons a good strength is still nice.

General advice: Combat is not the be all and end all of shadowrun. Have at least one backup skill set when hulk smash doesn't work. Well rounded is better long term than super specialized. YMMV.

[Umidori]

Body is a no-brainer. Congrats on the gimme. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/nyahnyah.gif)

Your ability to attack is secondary to your defensiveness, so I'd drop Agility down to 5 or 4, save yourself some resources.

You can also drop your Strength, since the biggest thing it does is boost your melee damage. Same line of thinking as Agility - defense over offense. If you still want to do damage, or want to be a more threatening target, use a gun.

Reaction means dodging, which means wasted shots, which means damage mitigation, which means you're a successful tank. You've got it high, right where it should be.

Willpower is like Body for Magic, so it should be pretty high.

Intuition is nice when paired with a high Reaction for maximixed evasion, but not dearly necessary, since your allies can do most of the scouting/perception stuff it helps with for you. Valuable though, even if just for evasion.

Charisma is also nice, but again, something your teammates will be covering more of. The tank shouldn't be talking his way through security unless no one else can. Have just enough to be able to resist social manipulation without completely buckling.

Logic does a little bit of everything, but that's not your job. You soak bullets and take blunt trauma, not hack electronics or solve math problems. Leave it to the Decker, Rigger, or Mage.

The adjustments I'd make would look like this.

Body: 10
Agility: 5 (-2)
Reaction: 7
Strength: 5 (-4)
Willpower: 6 (+4)
Logic: 2
Intuition: 3 (+1)
Charisma: 3 (+1)

You're a lot stronger against Magic now, you're less of a pushover Socially, you don't hit as hard in melee but who cares, you don't have as many dice to attack but that's fine, you have an extra evasion and perception die, and you're still not the sharpest tool in the shed but again, who cares?

Of course, YMMV.

~Umi

[craftomega]

Well, what's your priority for attributes? You're obviously using 'ware or magic to boost, and you're playing a troll or orc.

I'd recommend that you up your willpower to a minimum of 3 (bringing your stun track to 10, and you will take a lot of stun if you're a tank [lots of armour = bullets do stun]).
ditto on your logic, for the boost to your mental limit and vital first aid skill.

Intuition should be 5. Increased initiative, dodge and perception? Yes.

Charisma can afford to stay as is, but understand that you'll be relying on other people to negotiate pay, sell loot, buy new stuff, all that jazz. do not piss off the group face or you will be paying an extra hunk of cash on all your new gear because your relying on your fixer.

Drop body and use 'ware to boost damage soak if you can, as body no longer effects encumbrance. Unless you're planning on using close combat a lot you can afford to drop strength a bit, though for high recoil weapons a good strength is still nice.

General advice: Combat is not the be all and end all of shadowrun. Have at least one backup skill set when hulk smash doesn't work. Well rounded is better long term than super specialized. YMMV.

Well your right and your wrong. This guy has no magic, only a crap ton of money, 450,000 to be exact and 20 attribute points. He is an Ork.

[FuelDrop]

I may be wrong but I think you're limited to one stat being hard-capped at chargen.

[FuelDrop]

Have you looked into cyberlimbs? Bonus physical track boxes, plus can add armour. might be worth something to you.

[SpellBinder]

As well as Bone Density Augmentation, Platelet Factories, and Orthoskin.

[craftomega]

I may be wrong but I think you're limited to one stat being hard-capped at chargen.

Your right, but it only counts for stats that are brough that way via Attribute points, if it is done via augements then you can go over. Page 94

[RHat]

Intuition is nice when paired with a high Reaction for maximixed evasion, but not dearly necessary, since your allies can do most of the scouting/perception stuff it helps with for you. Valuable though, even if just for evasion.

Charisma is also nice, but again, something your teammates will be covering more of. The tank shouldn't be talking his way through security unless no one else can. Have just enough to be able to resist social manipulation without completely buckling.

If his background is personal protection, I'd disagree with these points. Perception and tracking can be pretty important for such a role, as can Judge Intentions. Plus the crossover into Disguise can have its benefits there. Etiquette and intimidation can, similarly, be important for such a role, and Charisma also feeds Judge Intentions.

[Umidori]

You'll note I actually increased both Intuition and Charisma from the levels he had them at? I think you'll agree that a 3 in each is sufficient, even for character bio reasoning?

I admit, my adjustments were primarily based on the mechanical gameplay aspects of running a "Tank", but I think those values still work out nicely. Besides, Pereception and Social skill can always make up for one's Attributes.

~Umi

[RHat]

You'll note I actually increased both Intuition and Charisma from the levels he had them at? I think you'll agree that a 3 in each is sufficient, even for character bio reasoning?

I admit, my adjustments were primarily based on the mechanical gameplay aspects of running a "Tank", but I think those values still work out nicely. Besides, Pereception and Social skill can always make up for one's Attributes.

~Umi

Assuming sufficient skill investment? Generally yes, but I do wish there was a way to increase your Judge Intentions pool aside from your Attributes.

[Umidori]

It's still a workable level for the character concept.

Besides, being a bodyguard isn't so much about being able to read people's every intention as it is being a deterant, an extra set of eyes, and occasionally a bullet catcher. Yeah, being observant is important, but you're more enforcing protocols and following predetermined rules, not making a lot of judgements of your own (besides the obvious ones like taking a bullet in an obvious crisis) without input from your client or boss.

If someone approaches your client, you don't have to be able to know what they're thinking 100% of the time, you just have to handle it according to protocol. It doesn't matter if they're a kindly old lady who you honestly believe to be genuinely harmless, you still run things by the numbers and call it in. If the old lady tries to mosey past you with her walker, you politely ask explain the situation and who you are, ask her for her ID, verify who she is and why she's approaching your client, and only let her past when you have the say-so from up above.

You can't notice everything all the time, and good security makes sure to build in redundancies to protect against things like lapses in human perception or judgement. Even the best trained professionals miss things, so relying on a predetermined system of verification helps minimize the threat of such errors. Sure, you can't rely entirely on protocol for everything, but especially if you're not the guy calling the shots, it definitely helps.

~Umi

[RHat]

Oh, it's workable - I just really wish there was a way to get that pool up if you don't have the attributes.

The ability to judge the people around you means that you know when to deviate from protocol - when a situation is about to get bad and you need to get the client the hell out of dodge, potentially over their objections.

[Umidori]

Well, presumably they'll give us Empathy software back in a splat book. Who needs to be able to Judge Intentions when your PAN can do it for you?

~Umi

[craftomega]

Edit*** Updated once again.

[ Spoiler ]

ATTRIBUTES: A (24)
METATYPE: C (Edge 0) Ork
SKILLS: D (22/0)
RESOURCES: B (275,000)
MAGIC OR RESONANCE: E (0)

Body: 7 (10)
Agility: 5
Reaction: 7
Strength: 6
Willpower: 5
Logic: 3
Intuition: 5
Charisma: 3
Edge: 1

Cyber/Bioware

Bone Density Aug x3 +3 Damage Resist, +2 unarmed
Muscle augmentation x2 +2 Strength
Muscle toner +1 Agility
Synaptic booster + 1 reaction
Cybereyes
Sleep regulator
Symbiotes

SKILLS

6 Unarmed
3 Sneaking
5 Automatics
3 Gymnastics
4 Perception
1 Pilot Ground Vehicle

N English
2 Or’zet
2 Mr. Johnson
4 Security Procedures
2 Safehouse Locations
2 Sociology
2 Psychology
2 Biology

QUALITIES
QUICK HEALER -3
HIGH PAIN TOLERANCEx3 - 21
WILL TO LIvE x3 -9
WEAK IMMUNE SYSTEM +10
UNSTEADY HANDS + 7

Items
COMMLINKS Renraku Sensei
1 fake SIN
Subvocal mic
Micro-transceiver
Survival kit
Gecko tape gloves
Rappelling gloves
Low Lifestyle
Handheld Sensor
Resperator
Restraints Metal x5
Restraints Metal x40
Medkit
Medkit supplies x6
Docwagon Contract Basic

Weapons/Armor

Shock gloves
Owner and carry license
FN-HAR
Owner and carry license
Silencer
Smartgun system top
Bipod
300 Cassless Rifle Ammo
70 Explosive Rifle rounds
4 clips
Ares Crusader II
Owner and carry license
Quick-draw holster
300 Caseless Machine Pistol Ammo
40 Explosive Machine Pistol rounds
4 clips
Silencer
Combat Jacket
Lined Coat
Helmet

[RHat]

Toughness really doesn't seem worth it, dual-wielding isn't useful enough for Ambidextrous to be valuable, and I'm not sure if I'd drop 27 Karma on Will to Live (personally) - if you're expecting to take damage, though, you might want to consider High Pain Tolerance to offset the CM penalties. You should also get some negative qualities - they're great for RP, and the extra Karma is valuable. Addiction, Allergy, Code of Honour, Bad Rep, SINner, and Unsteady Hands could be interesting choices. In particular, you could say that due to your Code of Honour led to a client getting hurt/kidnapped/killed, and to a near-death experience of your own - the psychological trauma causes your hands to shake when your under s great deal of stress (Unsteady Hands), you self-medicate with alcohol (Addiction), and you find it difficult or impossible to get hired as a bodyguard now, leading you to the shadows (Bad Rep).

[craftomega]

Toughness really doesn't seem worth it, dual-wielding isn't useful enough for Ambidextrous to be valuable, and I'm not sure if I'd drop 27 Karma on Will to Live (personally) - if you're expecting to take damage, though, you might want to consider High Pain Tolerance to offset the CM penalties. You should also get some negative qualities - they're great for RP, and the extra Karma is valuable. Addiction, Allergy, Code of Honour, Bad Rep, SINner, and Unsteady Hands could be interesting choices. In particular, you could say that due to your Code of Honour led to a client getting hurt/kidnapped/killed, and to a near-death experience of your own - the psychological trauma causes your hands to shake when your under s great deal of stress (Unsteady Hands), you self-medicate with alcohol (Addiction), and you find it difficult or impossible to get hired as a bodyguard now, leading you to the shadows (Bad Rep).

Will to live is 3 karma per not 9....

But other wise an intresting idea, I was having alot of difficulty with a background story.

But the problem is, is that most of the bad quilities you listed are banned for missions, which I plan on doing.
https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/1203480...ons%20v0.99.pdf

[RHat]

Will to live is 3 karma per not 9....

But other wise an intresting idea, I was having alot of difficulty with a background story.

Ah, yes - didn't check the cost in the book, so I was reading that as 9 per rank, not 9 total. Really, I should have been smart enough to notice that..

In any case, I'd very much suggest trying to fit in a higher edge. Also, from a purely optimization-based standpoint, it makes little sense for you to take Blades - your Unarmed damage is already pretty strong, so you might as well just play to that. You're making a pretty significant investment for not much benefit (especially since the Accuracy of any melee weapon is lower than your Physical Limit). Better to move those points into other combat skills.

Addtionally, if you're gonna use 2 firearms skills, you're largely better off with Longarms than with Automatics - the benefit to Automatics is that it covers off both primary combat weapons and concealable/discrete weapons. If you're gonna have Pistols for the latter (and Pistols is better at the latter), you should instead take Longarms for the former (as longarms is better at the former). Alternatively, go with just Automatics; nixing Pistols and Blades frees 6 points for skills that can be used to increase your Unarmed and Automatics skills.

[Chance359]

I'd suggest dropping one of those levels of Muscle augmentation and picking up damage compensators.

[craftomega]

Ah, yes - didn't check the cost in the book, so I was reading that as 9 per rank, not 9 total. Really, I should have been smart enough to notice that..

In any case, I'd very much suggest trying to fit in a higher edge. Also, from a purely optimization-based standpoint, it makes little sense for you to take Blades - your Unarmed damage is already pretty strong, so you might as well just play to that. You're making a pretty significant investment for not much benefit (especially since the Accuracy of any melee weapon is lower than your Physical Limit). Better to move those points into other combat skills.

Addtionally, if you're gonna use 2 firearms skills, you're largely better off with Longarms than with Automatics - the benefit to Automatics is that it covers off both primary combat weapons and concealable/discrete weapons. If you're gonna have Pistols for the latter (and Pistols is better at the latter), you should instead take Longarms for the former (as longarms is better at the former). Alternatively, go with just Automatics; nixing Pistols and Blades frees 6 points for skills that can be used to increase your Unarmed and Automatics skills.

Ya I agree, its better to be good at a few things then bad at lots of them. I made the changed you recomended.

[ Spoiler ]

ATTRIBUTES: A (24)
METATYPE: C (Edge 0) Ork
SKILLS: D (22/0)
RESOURCES: B (275,000)
MAGIC OR RESONANCE: E (0)

Body: 7 (10)
Agility: 5
Reaction: 7
Strength: 6
Willpower: 5
Logic: 3
Intuition: 5
Charisma: 3
Edge: 1

Cyber/Bioware

Bone Density Aug x3 +3 Damage Resist, +2 unarmed
Muscle augmentation x2 +2 Strength
Muscle toner +1 Agility
Synaptic booster + 1 reaction
Cybereyes (Flare compensation, Low-light vision, Smartlink, Thermographic vision, Vision magnification)
Sleep regulator
Symbiotes x2

SKILLS

6 Unarmed
3 Sneaking
5 Automatics
3 Gymnastics
4 Perception
1 Pilot Ground Vehicle

N English
2 Or’zet
2 Mr. Johnson
4 Security Procedures
2 Safehouse Locations
2 Sociology
2 Psychology
2 Biology

QUALITIES
QUICK HEALER -3
HIGH PAIN TOLERANCEx3 - 21
WILL TO LIvE x3 -9
WEAK IMMUNE SYSTEM +10
UNSTEADY HANDS + 7

Items
COMMLINKS Renraku Sensei
1 fake SIN
Subvocal mic
Micro-transceiver
Survival kit
Gecko tape gloves
Rappelling gloves
Low Lifestyle
Handheld Sensor
Resperator
Restraints Metal x5
Restraints Metal x40
Medkit
Medkit supplies x6
Docwagon Contract Basic

Weapons/Armor

Shock gloves
Owner and carry license
FN-HAR
Owner and carry license
Silencer
Smartgun system top
Bipod
300 Cassless Rifle Ammo
70 Explosive Rifle rounds
4 clips
Ares Crusader II
Owner and carry license
Quick-draw holster
300 Caseless Machine Pistol Ammo
40 Explosive Machine Pistol rounds
4 clips
Silencer
Combat Jacket
Lined Coat
Helmet

[RHat]

Rather curious as to why you'd choose Weak Immune System - but you'll need to reduce some of your Positive Qualities as you cannot have more than 25 Karma worth.

I'd probably say go for the full allotment of NQ's, maybe take a 3 Karma Dependent or Specific Biased Prejudiced (maybe you don't much like Magic, or you still believe everything you've heard about technomancers) and Incompetent for something like Acting, Engineering, or Electronics. Then use 25 Karma to get to Edge 3 (Edge is kind of important in SR5).

You might also consider a Ballistic Shield, since the Crusader is one handed anyways and they are kind of handy when being obvious isn't a problem.

[craftomega]

Rather curious as to why you'd choose Weak Immune System - but you'll need to reduce some of your Positive Qualities as you cannot have more than 25 Karma worth.

I'd probably say go for the full allotment of NQ's, maybe take a 3 Karma Dependent or Specific Biased Prejudiced (maybe you don't much like Magic, or you still believe everything you've heard about technomancers) and Incompetent for something like Acting, Engineering, or Electronics. Then use 25 Karma to get to Edge 3 (Edge is kind of important in SR5).

You might also consider a Ballistic Shield, since the Crusader is one handed anyways and they are kind of handy when being obvious isn't a problem.

Oh crap I missed the limiter on Qualities. But ok Updated. I also cant take incompetent due to the FAQ limiting it.

[ Spoiler ]

ATTRIBUTES: A (24)
METATYPE: C (Edge 0) Ork
SKILLS: D (22/0)
RESOURCES: B (275,000)
MAGIC OR RESONANCE: E (0)

Body: 7 (10)
Agility: 5
Reaction: 7
Strength: 6
Willpower: 5
Logic: 3
Intuition: 5
Charisma: 3
Edge: 1

Cyber/Bioware

Bone Density Aug x3 +3 Damage Resist, +2 unarmed
Muscle augmentation x2 +2 Strength
Muscle toner +1 Agility
Synaptic booster + 1 reaction
Cybereyes (Flare compensation, Low-light vision, Smartlink, Thermographic vision, Vision magnification)
Sleep regulator
Symbiotes

SKILLS

6 Unarmed
3 Sneaking
5 Automatics
3 Gymnastics
4 Perception
1 Pilot Ground Vehicle

N English
2 Or’zet
2 Mr. Johnson
4 Security Procedures
2 Safehouse Locations
2 Sociology
2 Psychology
2 Biology

QUALITIES
QUICK HEALER -3
HIGH PAIN TOLERANCEx3 - 21
UNSTEADY HANDS + 7

Items
COMMLINKS Renraku Sensei
1 fake SIN
Subvocal mic
Micro-transceiver
Survival kit
Gecko tape gloves
Rappelling gloves
Low Lifestyle
Handheld Sensor
Resperator
Restraints Metal x5
Restraints Metal x40
Medkit
Medkit supplies x6
Docwagon Contract Basic

Weapons/Armor

Shock gloves
Owner and carry license
Ballistic shield
Owner and carry license
FN-HAR
Owner and carry license
Silencer
Smartgun system top
Bipod
300 Cassless Rifle Ammo
70 Explosive Rifle rounds
4 clips
Ares Crusader II
Owner and carry license
Quick-draw holster
300 Caseless Machine Pistol Ammo
40 Explosive Machine Pistol rounds
4 clips
Silencer
Combat Jacket
Lined Coat
Helmet