Submachine guns, Why? Options

[Smash]

I rarely have a toon that utilises SMGs. In every edition they just seem like inferior assault rifles.

What I have always found frustrating is that in every edition (and it seems in 5th Ed as well, but hopefully I've just missed it) the writers tend to do a bad job at defining all the little nuances for all the classes of weapons.

For instance. How many hands does a pistol use? One right? How do we know? Probably some fluff text somewhere or we’re assuming they work the same as real life.

SMGs seem to sit in this void between everything. Bigger than a pistol, smaller than a rifle. What’s it for? Can I use it one-handed? Then why use a pistol, is there a penalty, is the pistol more concealable? Are they easier to use indoors than Rifles? This would make sense, but how does this work mechanically?

Some of this stuff is explained in the SMG description some of it isn’t, bits and pieces are probably sprinkled through the skills and other sections.

To me the weapons chapter needs a stat block for what weapons types share. Eg:

SMG
Skill: Automatics
Hands required: 2 (Can be fired in one at -2, -1 accuracy)
Concealability: -2 dice to palming check
Attachments allowed: Barrel, top, stock
Whatever else I’m forgetting.

So far all I can see SMGs being good for is for versatility why being a combat biker. Pretty niche weapon though…….

[tasti man LH]

The big thing I always viewed with SMGs was that if you wanted to bring in a Concealable firearm, but something with a bit more firepower than your average pistol.

[FuelDrop]

I rarely have a toon that utilises SMGs. In every edition they just seem like inferior assault rifles.

What I have always found frustrating is that in every edition (and it seems in 5th Ed as well, but hopefully I've just missed it) the writers tend to do a bad job at defining all the little nuances for all the classes of weapons.

For instance. How many hands does a pistol use? One right? How do we know? Probably some fluff text somewhere or we’re assuming they work the same as real life.

SMGs seem to sit in this void between everything. Bigger than a pistol, smaller than a rifle. What’s it for? Can I use it one-handed? Then why use a pistol, is there a penalty, is the pistol more concealable? Are they easier to use indoors than Rifles? This would make sense, but how does this work mechanically?

Some of this stuff is explained in the SMG description some of it isn’t, bits and pieces are probably sprinkled through the skills and other sections.

To me the weapons chapter needs a stat block for what weapons types share. Eg:

SMG
Skill: Automatics
Hands required: 2 (Can be fired in one at -2, -1 accuracy)
Concealability: -2 dice to palming check
Attachments allowed: Barrel, top, stock
Whatever else I’m forgetting.

So far all I can see SMGs being good for is for versatility why being a combat biker. Pretty niche weapon though…….

SMGs are far subtler than assault rifles, being easier to conceal and less likely to attract the attention of the heavy response elements of the police than their larger cousin. They also tend to be better at stealth, with the Ingram smartgun X being a favorite of street sams the world over for good reason.

Shadowrun isn't dungeons and dragons, where the objective is to kill the monsters and swipe the treasure. In Shadowrun the SMG combines good (often suppressed) firepower and the ability to take that firepower to a lot of places without attracting too much attention. One final benefit is that SMGs are considerably cheaper than most ARs, making them better disposable weapons.

[Lynchmob]

If you wanted to make them more useful you could enact a no suppressor on supersonic rounds house rule. You'd have to decide which weapons use supersonic rounds and then maybe allow for subsonic rounds to be fired at a reduced damage/AP penalty but that just might lead to huge lengthy arguments between all of the firearms experts and firearms "experts".

[phlapjack77]

To me the weapons chapter needs a stat block for what weapons types share. Eg:

SMG
Skill: Automatics
Hands required: 2 (Can be fired in one at -2, -1 accuracy)
Concealability: -2 dice to palming check
Attachments allowed: Barrel, top, stock
Whatever else I’m forgetting.

I like this idea, and share your frustration at getting some actual descriptions and rules on the different weapon types. This seems like a pretty good start.

The big thing I always viewed with SMGs was that if you wanted to bring in a Concealable firearm, but something with a bit more firepower than your average pistol.

I think this niche is filled with the machine pistol though.

[Voran]

Basically the same reason you use SMGs in the real world. Portability, less blow-through with ammo. Not only are they easier to stash on your person, but also in things like vehicles and the like.

In game, I suspect yeah, the niche is kinda covered with machine pistols. But their shorter barrels and general lack of heft likely leads to a less precise weapon compared to a smg. While you can one hand a machine pistol, I also imagine that means unless you're using a stock on it, all that recoil is going into your....wrist.

In game, I don't see the point of the full auto machine pistol, instead the ruger t-bolt and stuff make more sense, your 'robocop' pistol as it were.

[Ixal]

I think this niche is filled with the machine pistol though.

Both fill that niche. MPs are more concealable, while SMGs offer more power.

[Jaid]

vs machine pistols:
- range
- damage
- accuracy
- generally better for full automatic
- generally more recoil compensation built in due to folding stocks
- frequently come with better accessories

(these don't always hold up on a case-by-case basis, but if you compare the best machine pistols in their category to the best SMG in their category, the SMGs do seem to come out ahead fairly consistently imo).

vs assault rifles:
- concealability
- encumbrance (depends what else you're carrying, and whether it's a main or backup weapon)
- legality/expected security response
- potential to dual-wield for certain specialized builds

and possibly other things i haven't considered. ultimately, it's best to bring the right tool for the right job. you may not feel that the SMG isn't the right tool for your character, but i think i would generally prefer it over a machine pistol (if i'm going to go for extra concealable, i'll probably go further down the concealability chain to a regular pistol).

[RHat]

Generally, any Automatics-using character should have an idea as to what their ideal choice for a Machine Pistol, Submachine Gun, and Assault Rifle are - and if they don't begin play owning all of them, they should make a point to get them in pretty short order. I could easily see a character starting play with a Crusader II and either a Praetor or Model 100, and then acquiring a Raiden in pretty short order in play.

Frankly, an Automatics user has a much easier time gearing up than a Longarms user.

[Umidori]

SMGs are the largest one-handed firearms, or at least they were in 4E, so they used to have a very nice niche if you knew how to make use of them. However, with the new recoil and single "Attack Action" systems of 5E, their heyday of being the best non-penalized firearms for dual-wielding may possibly be over.

That said, they're still a very viable compromise option for a lot of things. Want concealability? Sure, you could go for a Machine Pistol, but those are lacking in damage, RC, ammo capacity, and accessories. Want firepower? Sure, you could go for an assault rifle, but maybe that extra concealability on the SMG will be the edge you need to actually get it through security to where you need it?

It's just one more option for players. It may not be the obvious FOO (First Order Optimal) Choice, but thankfully 5E seems to have produced a lot less of those so far than 4E did. Gear choice is now less "Duh, this is clearly objectively better, why wouldn't I take this?" and more "Hmm, do I want X at the cost of Y, or Y at the cost of Z? Decisions..."

~Umi

[RHat]

Well, a FOO option isn't the BEST option to begin with - it's the one that gets the best result for the least effort, leaving open the possibility of better options for more effort.

[Umidori]

True, but I definitely feel that Assault Rifles have historically been something of a FOO option (at least in 4E) because they give you More Dakka™ and because concealability is not as obvious of a restriction, and with some styles of play isn't even really an impediment.

SMGs are definitely not a FOO option, but they're maybe a SOO or TOO option, depending on your needs and challenges.

~Umi

[RHat]

Yeah, AR's are a bit like that - perhaps the Automatics group as a whole, really, while Longarms is probably better for the dedicated firearms specialist (see: designated marksman). Pistols are probably the most like that, since you don't have to put any effort into concealment or recoil compensation to be able to use them as intended - the Warhawk especially so.

[Umidori]

To be honest, I'd consider the Warhawk a +2 concealment modifier instead of a +0, and certain of the Machine Pistols a +0 instead of their normal +2.

I always wished Concealment would get some form of Advanced Rules, or heck, even individual listings for individual items. While applying a single value to a category of similar weapons works most of the time, there are a number of fringe cases where it really should be spelled out specifically for an individual item. They do this in some cases, like the Short Barrel Defiance T-250 being only a +2 in Arsenal (I just checked, for some reason it went up to +4 in SR5? Fragging hell.), but they don't do this for plenty of other weapons that they really should, like the Warhawk.

~Umi

[RHat]

Layout wise, it wouldn't even be that hard to add it as an entry to the stat line for a weapon.

[Wakshaani]

I rarely have a toon that utilises SMGs. In every edition they just seem like inferior assault rifles.

What I have always found frustrating is that in every edition (and it seems in 5th Ed as well, but hopefully I've just missed it) the writers tend to do a bad job at defining all the little nuances for all the classes of weapons.

For instance. How many hands does a pistol use? One right? How do we know? Probably some fluff text somewhere or we’re assuming they work the same as real life.

SMGs seem to sit in this void between everything. Bigger than a pistol, smaller than a rifle. What’s it for? Can I use it one-handed? Then why use a pistol, is there a penalty, is the pistol more concealable? Are they easier to use indoors than Rifles? This would make sense, but how does this work mechanically?

Some of this stuff is explained in the SMG description some of it isn’t, bits and pieces are probably sprinkled through the skills and other sections.

To me the weapons chapter needs a stat block for what weapons types share. Eg:

SMG
Skill: Automatics
Hands required: 2 (Can be fired in one at -2, -1 accuracy)
Concealability: -2 dice to palming check
Attachments allowed: Barrel, top, stock
Whatever else I’m forgetting.

So far all I can see SMGs being good for is for versatility why being a combat biker. Pretty niche weapon though…….

This is a very good idea, by the by. I'd probably establish a set level of information that all guns of teh type share (All SMGs have blank), but leave room for an individual tweak on a per-gun basis. (This particular SMG has modified blank)

Mind you, I also want to add a lil' tweak on Accuracy, based on using one or two hands. (For example, using an SMG with two hands gives +1 Accuracy, using a Katana in one hand gives -2 Accuracy, and so on.)It's a tad more finicky than most games need, but it's nice to have as an optional rule for certain tables.

[nezumi]

I've used SMGs as the Jack-of-All-Trades. Concealable like a handgun (not quite as much though), auto-fire like an assault rifle (not quite as much though), space for modifications like a rifle (not quite as much though). My face used SMGs and had a smugglable one, a long-range one, and a spray-and-pray one she'd pull off as needed, all with one skill. She later built up the Rifle skill, still don't have any range, but between those two skills she could fill most combat roles passably.

[ShadowDragon8685]

A submachinegun is a good choice when you need something that you can just use. Most of them have semi, burst and auto fire modes, they do decent enough damage and can carry truely monstrous quantities of ammunition with the right mods.

Thing is, it's not gonna be perfect for anything. Concealability, maneuverability and social acceptability? Pistols. Range? Rifles of any sort. Close-quarters firepower? Shotguns. Penetration? Battle rifles. Ammunition capacity? Machine gun.

But, if you can only take one gun to the run, you're probably going to want to take a submachine gun, because you can use it for nearly everything. Not as well as a gun designed for that niche, but well enough to get the job done.

[Shortstraw]

Take an M-4A1 Carbine (GH21)- damage of an AR, concealability of an SMG (and since it is an SMG you could technically fire it one handed - warning: one handed use may result in severe beating by GM).

[Mäx]

You can Dualwield almost anything.

[Sendaz]

But can he dualwield fire and run? (IMG:style_emoticons/default/nyahnyah.gif)

[cryptoknight]

I like this idea, and share your frustration at getting some actual descriptions and rules on the different weapon types. This seems like a pretty good start.


I think this niche is filled with the machine pistol though.

Technically that's what SMGs are though

For instance, one of today's most common SMGs is the MP-5
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Heckler_%26_Koch_MP5

The Heckler & Koch MP5 (from German: Maschinenpistole 5, "machine pistol model 5") is a 9mm submachine gun of German design, developed in the 1960s by a team of engineers from the German small arms manufacturer Heckler & Koch GmbH (H&K) of Oberndorf am Neckar. There are over 100 variants of the MP5,[4] including a semi-automatic version.

(IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)

[Mäx]

But can he dualwield fire and run? (IMG:style_emoticons/default/nyahnyah.gif)

Backwards, sure (IMG:style_emoticons/default/cool.gif)

Crypto, does German language even have a word for SMG?
Just asking cos my language really doesn't just "konepistooli" witch is direct translation of machine pistol.

[cryptoknight]

True, but I definitely feel that Assault Rifles have historically been something of a FOO option (at least in 4E) because they give you More Dakka™ and because concealability is not as obvious of a restriction, and with some styles of play isn't even really an impediment.

SMGs are definitely not a FOO option, but they're maybe a SOO or TOO option, depending on your needs and challenges.

~Umi

What I find amusing about this is that just about every Sam I've ever made, starting with 1e has always had a selection of SMGs

Mostly Ingrams... but these days I tend to lean toward HK227's

Assault rifles are like a big club, I like to think of SMGs as the surgical scalpel when automatic fire is required.

[Sendaz]

I have seen Maschinenpistole used but that may just be a local usage.