SR5: Slaving from comlinks, Questions generated from a run Options

[Pollution]

Tho it seems kinda silly that you can't run 'common programs' which tend to just affect Data Processing and Firewall, on your commlink. Given that's the only 2 rating they have anymore. I mean, where the hell is the actual market if all cyberdecks, even the crappiest ones, are restricted ware?

Commlinks are iPhones. "Walled Garden" style smart devices that do ONLY what they are allowed to do. Yeah, you can hack an iPhone, but you run the risk of bricking it, dealing with poorly written software that only works "KINDA" due to cpu limitations, etc...

Cyberdecks, on the other hand, are like Linux laptops/tablets. Custom OS's, custom HW, community driven software development, install whatever the hell you want on them (using virtual machine if you can't do it normally). It's much more configurable, upgrade-able, and are only limited by the user's skill/knowledge.

Common programs/hacking programs are not available on the iPhone store version of SR Commlinks. You can't have them, because you can't buy them on the app store. Again, you could hack it, but the device would become unstable and probably crash the first time IC smacked you. Furthermore, with the matrix redesign, there may be a meta reason why the software wouldn't work in the new matrix. Something to the order of, "You must install Silverlight to use this content....Silverlight is not available on your Operating System/Browser at this time."

That's why.

[BlackJaw]

Honestly, whether or not you can daisy-chain master-slave links in SR5 is a good question that needs a FAQ answer, because the way the rules are written, it seems that whoever wrote them did not consider that scenario.

The rules as I read them now do not say you use the master's master's master's stats. It says that a master slave relationship is unique between that particular master and slave. The protection doesn't jump up to the top most master, but just to the device it is directly slaved to. Page 233, emphasis mine:
"Your commlink (or deck) can handle up to (Device Rating x 3) slaved devices, becoming the master device in that particular relationship. "
"Whenever a slaved device is called on to make a defense test, it uses either its own or its master’s rating for each rating in the test. "
Nothing prevents you from daisy chaining master-slave connections, but the "bottom" slaves don't get to use the stats of the top master, only the stats of the device directly above them. Because the device making the defense test is the one targeted, the rules explicitly say it gets to use the matrix attributes of it's "particular" master. That master may in turn get to benefit from it's master, but only when it is the target. No pyramid schemes in RAW.

It's also not possible to get much benefit from slaving your Deck to a Commlink. The main reason being that when you hop into the matrix, even just via an AR winodw, your deck goes from being a device icon to a persona icon, and only devices can be slaved in a PAN or WAN. Page 218: "The fact that the device has a user overrides the device’s normal icon status, turning it into a persona." This doesn't mean you get no benefit. A cyberdeck slaved to a commlink will use it's own sleaze for remaining hidden when running silent, but use the link's possibly higher firewall for defending itself... as long as you currently aren't using it for being on the matrix (including opening an AR window for hacking in meat space, but not including basic AR view of the world and AROs around you.) If you're playing a decker, that's not going to help you very often because all hacking takes place on the matrix, even when hacking in AR. This also means that slaving your commlink to the decker's deck won't protect you while you're on the matrix via that commlink... because it stops being a device icon and therefore can no longer be a slave.

[GiraffeShaman]

We've been told that hackers are now rare and the Megacorps have announced that using the Matrix is secure and safe. Most NPCs believe this. Consequently, a large percentage of NPCs are not running silent or taking all but the most minimal precautions, such as buying a decent Commlink. CorpSec might be the paranoid exception, but even low ranked versions of Corpsec are probaly pretty lax. It's a bit like running into a gunman in our world. Sure, they are out there. But most of us don't run into them or even worry about running into them even once in a decade. (Of course in SR you very well might run into a gunman, just not an actual hacker)

I think the system is made the way it is to make NPCs very vulnerable to hacking in general. But it falls apart if the GM pretends that every NPC is both ultra-paranoid and technical saavy. It's meant to operate in a similar manner to how most mundanes are very vulnerable to Awakened powers such as mental manipulations.

On the subject of Hosts. I get the feeling they are expensive to maintain. I don't think it's like say owning a website in our world, otherwise everyone would indeed have one.

I've yet to see a reason though why Street Sams who want to remain Online at all times can't rent space in a high security Host. I'd think it obvious that someone would offer such a service, such as one of the various Shadowrunner nightclub with a Matrix presence.

[SpellBinder]

Assuming that NPCs in SR4 weren't very vulnerable in the matrix to begin with. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/silly.gif)

[kerbarian]

"Your commlink (or deck) can handle up to (Device Rating x 3) slaved devices, becoming the master device in that particular relationship. "

That's a good catch -- the language alludes to the commlink/deck also being in other relationships where it's not the master. I think daisy chaining with each device only getting the defense of its direct master (not it's master's master, etc.) is the interpretation that makes the most sense.

Marks, on the other hand, look like they would travel all the way up the chain.

It's also not possible to get much benefit from slaving your Deck to a Commlink. The main reason being that when you hop into the matrix, even just via an AR winodw, your deck goes from being a device icon to a persona icon, and only devices can be slaved in a PAN or WAN. Page 218: "The fact that the device has a user overrides the device’s normal icon status, turning it into a persona."

Your deck's icon changes to a persona when you're using it, but it doesn't stop being a device. Technomancers are actually called out as the only type of persona that's not also a device. The device can still be a slave, but I can see it as a question whether an attack on the persona is considered an attack on the device such that it gets the defenses of its master. Since matrix damage from such an attack ends up as physical damage on the deck/commlink (fried circuits, etc.), I'd think it would count.

This is a separate issue, but what if a persona is far away (e.g. in a host), and someone physically close by (within 100m) wants to attack the associated commlink? Is the commlink immune unless the attacker travels to the same host?

[HugeC]

If it were true that personas could not also be a device, that would make the technomancer look a lot less boned than he does now... But with all the examples in the book about the decker slaving his pals' devices to his deck (which wouldn't be possible if personas don't count as devices), I doubt it could be. Plus riggers couldn't slave their drones to their RCC. Yeah, that can't be right.

[Repulse]

As far as multiple chains of master/slave devices, I was under the impression that a device could either be a master or a slave, and not both. If it were the case of the chaining was possible, I would just mark the owner's persona and spoof command a reboot action on the top master, effectively killing all of the slaves... (Though I didnt see anything about the Master going down causing issues, etc).

P.233 "Only devices can be slaves, masters, or part of a PAN." Doesn't this mean that devices can only be slaves, or masters, or part of a PAN?

[Vagabond Elf]

P.233 "Only devices can be slaves, masters, or part of a PAN." Doesn't this mean that devices can only be slaves, or masters, or part of a PAN?

No. That sentence says that, in order for something to be a slave, it must be a device. In order for it to be a master, it must be a device. And in order for it to be part of a PAN, it must be a device. But it says nothing about whether or not a device can be something that is not a slave, master or part of a PAN. As a fourth option a device operating as a stand-alone, not connected to anything but the Matrix itself, seems viable.

[BlackJaw]

If it were true that personas could not also be a device, that would make the technomancer look a lot less boned than he does now... But with all the examples in the book about the decker slaving his pals' devices to his deck (which wouldn't be possible if personas don't count as devices), I doubt it could be. Plus riggers couldn't slave their drones to their RCC. Yeah, that can't be right.

The RAW is a bit complicated here. In my initial reading I thought it was restricted so only Slaves had to be devices, but upon re-reading page 233, the device restriction does apply to Masters as well for PANs. The section on page 234-235 lays out device and persona icons as different things. Page 218 definitely also states that when you hop onto the matrix, the device you do so with changes from a Device Icon to a Persona Icon. (Note: Riggers that jump into a drone or vehicle merge that device icon into their persona icon, so it's not as big an issue for riggers, but it is still an issue for riggers with multiple drones.)

There might be an odd rules interpretation here that works though. (EDIT: Which kerbarian seemed to have noticed before me) When you hop onto the matrix, your Cyberdeck/Commlink/RCC's Device Icon changes to a Persona Icon, but the physical deck is of course still a device that is still on the matrix. It's icon type is simply being over-written by having a user. I guess you can still have things slaved to it by that reading? That also explains Technomancers not getting to be masters, as they are a Persona without a device (much like IC or Sprites, which are also Persona without devices). This interpretation, while a bit odd, allows Riggers with an RCC to still have all their drones slaved to it, or a Decker on the matrix to have the team's devices slaved to his deck none the less.

So let's re-evaluate the idea of a Decker slaving his Cyberdeck to a Rating 6 Commlink under this new more nuanced interpretation of devices and their icons. The decker has configured his deck for maximum offense (attack and sleaze) with his firewall set low, because he expects his Commlink's device rating 6 firewall to be used instead. He then slaves the deck to the commlink. When he hops onto the matrix, he converts his deck's device icon into a persona icon, but the device is still a device, so it's still slaved to the commlink. He goes off and hacks his way into a host and manages to trigger some IC. The IC targets his Persona Icon with an attack. Does the he get to use his commlink's Firewall? Page 233: "Whenever a slaved device is called on to make a defense test, it uses either its own or its master’s rating for each rating in the test. " So it looks like the IC is targeting the Persona, not a device, so the slaved status doesn't kick in, and the commlink doesn't help the decker.

Ok, I think this interpretation works. You get no real benefit from slaving a deck to a commlink while on a matrix run, but it's still possible for the team to slave their gear to the deck while he's on a matrix run, and simmilarly for a Rigger's RCC to have drones slaved to it while the Rigger is doing his thing.

This post has been edited by BlackJaw: Aug 13 2013, 04:17 PM

[BlackJaw]

Marks, on the other hand, look like they would travel all the way up the chain.

Nice catch yourself! Getting a mark on a slave also means getting a mark on the master, which if it is a slave, would therefore kick in and slide up the chain. This is a very good reason not to daisy chain devices.

This is a separate issue, but what if a persona is far away (e.g. in a host), and someone physically close by (within 100m) wants to attack the associated commlink? Is the commlink immune unless the attacker travels to the same host?

Yup. You have to be in the host to mess with an icon in the host, and the persona icon is the commlink's icon. Well that, or you have to get a hardline connection to the commlink in meat-space. Beyond that, all hacking is done in the matrix. Even AR hacking is done in a Matrix window, not in normal AR Overlay.

If someone has taken his persona icon into a host, and you look at his meat body location within 100 meters, you will be able to locate icons for all of his wireless enabled devices except his commlink. Mind you the whole Persona overrides the Device setup doesn't mean his entire PAN Icon goes with him, only the device that he is using to hop onto the matrix with (his deck, commlink, or RCC) is converted into the persona. In other words, you can't slave everything to a commlink and then open an AR window and travel into a secure host to prevent someone from hacking your gun, or cyberware. This trick only works for your commlink, deck, RCC, etc. It also may impose a -2 distraction penalty to your real world actions because of the matrix overlay in your senses.

Note: Riggers that hop into a vehicle or drone merge that device icon into the persona as well, so a Rigger that is hopped in has a Persona with both his RCC (if he is using one) and his Drone/Vehicle icon subsumed. Weather or not he could then take that persona into a Host... Ugh... that's complicated. Matrix activities while rigging. In theory a Decker could also have a Control Rig, and instead of using an RCC, he could be using his Deck, and therefore he could be jumped into a drone, still have Sleaze and Attack attributes, and be on the matrix with a persona (as rigger expressly have a persona). That means hacking while rigging is possible, so you could be hacking into host while also rigged into a drone, which would make the drone harder to attack because it's Icon is in the host?

[forgarn]

So let's re-evaluate the idea of a Decker slaving his Cyberdeck to a Rating 6 Commlink under this new more nuanced interpretation of devices and their icons. The decker has configured his deck for maximum offense (attack and sleaze) with his firewall set low, because he expects his Commlink's device rating 6 firewall to be used instead. He then slaves the deck to the commlink. When he hops onto the matrix, he converts his deck's device icon into a persona icon, but the device is still a device, so it's still slaved to the commlink. He goes off and hacks his way into a host and manages to trigger some IC. The IC targets his Persona Icon with an attack. Does the he get to use his commlink's Firewall? Page 233: "Whenever a slaved device is called on to make a defense test, it uses either its own or its master’s rating for each rating in the test. " So it looks like the IC is targeting the Persona, not a device, so the slaved status doesn't kick in, and the commlink doesn't help the decker.

Ok, I think this interpretation works. You get no real benefit from slaving a deck to a commlink while on a matrix run, but it's still possible for the team to slave their gear to the deck while he's on a matrix run, and simmilarly for a Rigger's RCC to have drones slaved to it while the Rigger is doing his thing.

But isn't the IC targeting his persona icon, which is still a device that has had its icon overwritten? And since it is still a device that is on the matrix, it would in fact get to use the firewall of the commlink, correct?

[BlackJaw]

But isn't the IC targeting his persona icon, which is still a device that has had its icon overwritten? And since it is still a device that is on the matrix, it would in fact get to use the firewall of the commlink, correct?

The icon is a persona icon, not a device icon. The IC is attacking the persona, not the deck itself, and only devices (not personas) can be slaved. To quote the last line on page 234: "When is a device not a device? When it’s a persona!" and then on page 235: "When a person uses a device to connect to the Matrix, the device’s icon is subsumed by the persona’s icon, so it’s basically gone from the Matrix until the persona jacks out." The IC is attacking a persona, and the persona can't be slaved, so the master-slave relationship doesn't kick in.