So I've started running an game in SR5 (will post summary in another thread) and some clarifying questions have arisen:

Smartgun slaved to comlink. Comlink slaved to deck. Deck has a limit of 12 (DR(=4) x 3) devices. Is the smartgun protected? If so, does this count against deck's limit of slaved devices? Or can you simply cascade into eternity with slaved devices?

if you can cascade into eternity, there's no point in having a maximum number of slaves per device.

but when you consider what slaving is, it should be self-evident that you can't have a slave device also be a master at all. slaving a device basically means that all the decision-making happens at the master device. so if you have device A that passes everything along to device B which passes everything along to device C, the net result is that device A is in fact simply passing everything along to device C through a slightly more indirect route.

if you want the smartgun to benefit from the deck's attributes, the only way it can do that is to slave the smartgun.

I see where you are going with this and it's a good question.

From what I can tell, the device that gains the bonus, only gains the bonus to its defense based on the device it is directly slaved to.

Thus, in your example, your smartgun slaved to the commlink would use the commlink's stats to defend itself with, as that is what the smartgun is interacting with. The commlink, if directly attacked, would use the deck's rating because the commlink is slaved to the deck. That's how I see the rules anyway.

I think of it like input/output ports. The smartgun is on one port of the commlink. This commlink can output its protection to the smartgun. The commlink is on another port of the deck, so the deck can output its protection on the commlink directly. Another way to look at it, is that the deck can only incorporate so many devices, regardless of network structure.

It's really not clear, but I'd rule that only the direct device you are slaved to is providing its normal defense dice regardless of the other devices slaved. It kind of makes the number of devices you can slave to a deck kind of pointless if you can daisy chain everything.

If you want to get gritty, you can slave the smartlink to the commlink and the commlink to the deck, but the deck's protection only extends to the commlink. The smartlink only gets the commlink's protection.

Agreed. but I have to address some of the silliness that is SR5 matrix rules, the first being that to be protected you really must have a decker. After two game nights now, we are seeing some glaring holes here.

I would ask that you not use terms like self-evident as I would say the rules are not self-evident. For example, it has been stated in multiple places that to protect your comlink, you need it slaved to the decker's deck. Are you suggesting that a slaved comlink cannot in turn have any slaves?

I would suggest that this is what you hypothesize that this is what occurs. You may be correct, you may not.




So what about a case of 8 runners with one decker. The deck has a limit of 12 (DR(=4) x 3) devices. Drop on 8 firearms and only four of the comlinks are protected. What about the other 3? Vehicles? Extra weapons? Drones? Other gear?

That's a huge-ass group of runners, and they should probably hire another decker if they want to run that many folks.

Decking is a lot like making love.

Always better with a partner. Preferably one that fits well with your equipment.

Can still be interesting as a threesome or even a foursome if they all get along and work together.

Beyond that just gets messy.

or, you could just not leave a ton of things online. i mean, what do you *need* your commlink online for? is your character completely incapable of hitting without the +2 from smartlink, or is it just a nice little extra that helps?

it also helps if you get rid of the really stupid wireless bonuses and make them make sense. for example, the idea that sending a signal out through the matrix then back to your hazmat suit being faster than just sending the signal to your hazmat suit... that's just stupid. and there are many others just like it.

but really, i'm far from convinced that having a decker protect your gear is the best option. in all likelihood, your decker will wind up spending most of his/her time erasing marks and using full defense, when you're more likely to get interesting results from having your decker go on the offense.

just as one example of why this isn't a good idea, consider that as soon as an enemy decker gets a single mark on any piece of gear protected by the decker, the mark propagates to the master, and then to all the slaves. all of a sudden, a single device getting a mark means that your decker is going to have to spend hide actions to conceal them again.

P. 233 is clear that if you get a mark on a slaved device, you also get a mark on the master, but it doesn't say that having a mark on the master gives you a mark on every slave. In the example on p. 271, Spike gets a mark on Driver's drone, which gives him a mark on Driver's RCC too, but it doesn't say he gets one on all the other drones.

Save money and slave everything to Transys Avalons. DR 6 & ¥5,000 a pop. If it's an extended game, substitute for Fairlight Calibans for DR 7 & ¥8,000 each; short of running a program you've now got a Firewall equal to what a Sony CIY-720 is capable of for a fraction of the cost.

That is not a realistic solution. The issue occurs even with the decker as one of a team of six.

That also is simply not realistic.

Now you are going against the grain of SR5. I would prefer to understand how the developers *intended* this solution to be resolved.

Granted, but our decker posed the question to me as I (as the GM) am trying to help him learn to play the decker, both as the offensive and defensive roles.

Hmm... Ok. This actually doesn't seem like a bad solution. What are me missing by having the master be a comlink instead of a slave? Does the decker miss anything by slaving his deck to a comlink?

The commlink has no sleaze-attribute. So running silent will only work as long as noone looks for hidden icons.
As for slaving a deck to a commlink: That seems like a valid, yet cheap way of pushing Data Processing and Firewall without sacrificing Attack and Sleaze. With the only downside of not being able to hide your commlink through your deck.
I don't think this was intended though (why the hell do decks have such low device ratings in comparison anyway?).

Defaulting to logic for running silent is not working for the goons very well against the team's hacker and technomancer.

Sleaze was the only thing I could think of.

Agreed. Necessity is the mother of invention though...

Your goons should be slaving their gear to a host and using its Sleaze to cover them. Unless they're really underfunded street gang goons, in which case sucks to be them.

Local police, for example, should be working off a Rating 4-5 host, which should probably provide 4-6 points of Sleaze depending on how they configure it. I would actually expect Sleaze to be pretty low on the police priority list, though, really. They should be taking advantage of Firewall 7-8, as well.

Slaving mobile devices to a host is a quick way to compromise it: One stolen commlink (or whatever is slaved to the host, preferrably with low firewall), one direct connection via universal connector and a few moments later you have 3 marks on the host.

If the host literally exists to make gear more secure, what's the problem? Is there any reason to put secure data on the same host as your security guards' gear?

I can't answer that, since there is currently no mention of how costly it is to maintain a host.
But allowing every security goon to slave his devices to a high rating host, while there isn't even a way for runners to aquire a host is something i would consider somewhat one-sided (and defeats the whole purpose of the wireless-enabled world to make deckers more involved in combat (imo)).

I'm guessing that a host is quite expensive to build and maintain.

It's not one-sided, it's just simple security. The Downtown Seattle cops should have a Downtown Seattle Cop Security Host to help protect their stuff. This is probably still way cheaper than assigning competent deckers to individual squads. Runner teams can get similar benefits from slaving their gear to a deck, in a somewhat more limited capacity, so it's not all that one-sided.

This base level of security might stifle the neophyte decker, with Logic 3 and Cybercombat 4 and running a relatively cheap deck, but it's not going to crimp the starting player dedicated decker too much -- high level corp security might be running their gear on a rating 8 host with 11 Firewall and be hard targets (which they should be), but walkabout security won't get much benefit over a decently rated commlink.

Slaving your deck to a Transys Avalon commlink does seem like the way to go most of the time. You can cheaply get Firewall 6 that way for defense tests, though not for damage resistance or other purposes. I don't see how you can take advantage of the commlink's Data Processing, though, since it's not used in defense tests -- switching to your commlink to take (for example) a Matrix Perception action would require rebooting both devices.

Having the commlink as the master does leave it without Sleaze to help with avoiding detection, but you can use Wrapper to make your commlink look like a stealth RFID tag -- not especially suspicious if someone spots it running silent.

Honestly, whether or not you can daisy-chain master-slave links in SR5 is a good question that needs a FAQ answer, because the way the rules are written, it seems that whoever wrote them did not consider that scenario.





-k

In a general sense slaving your stuff to a commlink isn't necessarily bad, as long as you have a decent commlink. At lower 'wage slave' levels, yeah its not much better than not slaving stuff, but ponying up 8k for a 13-14 dice pool commlink (device+firewall+encryption program) would be sufficient for keeping away the posers and lowbies. Heck in some cases its equal to if not superior to dice pool of starting decker runners.

Remembering that programs, regardless of how cheap they are in the nuyen department, are exclusive to cyberdecks. Commlinks have been handwaved to say "you're too weak to handle programs now."

Tho it seems kinda silly that you can't run 'common programs' which tend to just affect Data Processing and Firewall, on your commlink. Given that's the only 2 rating they have anymore. I mean, where the hell is the actual market if all cyberdecks, even the crappiest ones, are restricted ware?

Maybe Restricted gear, but the lower end ones aren't any more difficult to get a hold of than the majority of the handguns listed.

Commlinks are assumed to run whatever basic software they need to do whatever they do. Common programs aren't required to do specific tasks -- actually no program is required for any specific task -- they just provide some boost.

So a commlink can do a matrix search, but a cyberdeck with a Browse program can do a matrix search much faster because it's dedicating some extra juice (its "extra juice" comes in the form of program slots). A commlink can still edit files, but adding in an Edit program (+2 to Data Processing limit for Edit actions) would be too taxing to the commlink's Data Processing to provide a net benefit. Commlinks are already packed with as much noise reduction as they can process, so Signal Scrub wouldn't help (or would actively hinder).

The point is that commlinks don't need programs. Their benefits are already tied up in higher Data Processing and Firewall ratings than most cyberdecks can offer, at fractions of the price. A 5000 nuyen rating 6 commlink (Data Processing 6, Firewall 6) can outperform the 123,000 nuyen Hermes Chariot running Encryption and Toolbox, if all you care about is Data Processing and Firewall.

Commlinks are iPhones. "Walled Garden" style smart devices that do ONLY what they are allowed to do. Yeah, you can hack an iPhone, but you run the risk of bricking it, dealing with poorly written software that only works "KINDA" due to cpu limitations, etc...

Cyberdecks, on the other hand, are like Linux laptops/tablets. Custom OS's, custom HW, community driven software development, install whatever the hell you want on them (using virtual machine if you can't do it normally). It's much more configurable, upgrade-able, and are only limited by the user's skill/knowledge.

Common programs/hacking programs are not available on the iPhone store version of SR Commlinks. You can't have them, because you can't buy them on the app store. Again, you could hack it, but the device would become unstable and probably crash the first time IC smacked you. Furthermore, with the matrix redesign, there may be a meta reason why the software wouldn't work in the new matrix. Something to the order of, "You must install Silverlight to use this content....Silverlight is not available on your Operating System/Browser at this time."

That's why.

The rules as I read them now do not say you use the master's master's master's stats. It says that a master slave relationship is unique between that particular master and slave. The protection doesn't jump up to the top most master, but just to the device it is directly slaved to. Page 233, emphasis mine:
"Your commlink (or deck) can handle up to (Device Rating x 3) slaved devices, becoming the master device in that particular relationship. "
"Whenever a slaved device is called on to make a defense test, it uses either its own or its master’s rating for each rating in the test. "
Nothing prevents you from daisy chaining master-slave connections, but the "bottom" slaves don't get to use the stats of the top master, only the stats of the device directly above them. Because the device making the defense test is the one targeted, the rules explicitly say it gets to use the matrix attributes of it's "particular" master. That master may in turn get to benefit from it's master, but only when it is the target. No pyramid schemes in RAW.

It's also not possible to get much benefit from slaving your Deck to a Commlink. The main reason being that when you hop into the matrix, even just via an AR winodw, your deck goes from being a device icon to a persona icon, and only devices can be slaved in a PAN or WAN. Page 218: "The fact that the device has a user overrides the device’s normal icon status, turning it into a persona." This doesn't mean you get no benefit. A cyberdeck slaved to a commlink will use it's own sleaze for remaining hidden when running silent, but use the link's possibly higher firewall for defending itself... as long as you currently aren't using it for being on the matrix (including opening an AR window for hacking in meat space, but not including basic AR view of the world and AROs around you.) If you're playing a decker, that's not going to help you very often because all hacking takes place on the matrix, even when hacking in AR. This also means that slaving your commlink to the decker's deck won't protect you while you're on the matrix via that commlink... because it stops being a device icon and therefore can no longer be a slave.

We've been told that hackers are now rare and the Megacorps have announced that using the Matrix is secure and safe. Most NPCs believe this. Consequently, a large percentage of NPCs are not running silent or taking all but the most minimal precautions, such as buying a decent Commlink. CorpSec might be the paranoid exception, but even low ranked versions of Corpsec are probaly pretty lax. It's a bit like running into a gunman in our world. Sure, they are out there. But most of us don't run into them or even worry about running into them even once in a decade. (Of course in SR you very well might run into a gunman, just not an actual hacker)

I think the system is made the way it is to make NPCs very vulnerable to hacking in general. But it falls apart if the GM pretends that every NPC is both ultra-paranoid and technical saavy. It's meant to operate in a similar manner to how most mundanes are very vulnerable to Awakened powers such as mental manipulations.

On the subject of Hosts. I get the feeling they are expensive to maintain. I don't think it's like say owning a website in our world, otherwise everyone would indeed have one.

I've yet to see a reason though why Street Sams who want to remain Online at all times can't rent space in a high security Host. I'd think it obvious that someone would offer such a service, such as one of the various Shadowrunner nightclub with a Matrix presence.

Assuming that NPCs in SR4 weren't very vulnerable in the matrix to begin with.

That's a good catch -- the language alludes to the commlink/deck also being in other relationships where it's not the master. I think daisy chaining with each device only getting the defense of its direct master (not it's master's master, etc.) is the interpretation that makes the most sense.

Marks, on the other hand, look like they would travel all the way up the chain.


Your deck's icon changes to a persona when you're using it, but it doesn't stop being a device. Technomancers are actually called out as the only type of persona that's not also a device. The device can still be a slave, but I can see it as a question whether an attack on the persona is considered an attack on the device such that it gets the defenses of its master. Since matrix damage from such an attack ends up as physical damage on the deck/commlink (fried circuits, etc.), I'd think it would count.

This is a separate issue, but what if a persona is far away (e.g. in a host), and someone physically close by (within 100m) wants to attack the associated commlink? Is the commlink immune unless the attacker travels to the same host?

If it were true that personas could not also be a device, that would make the technomancer look a lot less boned than he does now... But with all the examples in the book about the decker slaving his pals' devices to his deck (which wouldn't be possible if personas don't count as devices), I doubt it could be. Plus riggers couldn't slave their drones to their RCC. Yeah, that can't be right.

As far as multiple chains of master/slave devices, I was under the impression that a device could either be a master or a slave, and not both. If it were the case of the chaining was possible, I would just mark the owner's persona and spoof command a reboot action on the top master, effectively killing all of the slaves... (Though I didnt see anything about the Master going down causing issues, etc).

P.233 "Only devices can be slaves, masters, or part of a PAN." Doesn't this mean that devices can only be slaves, or masters, or part of a PAN?

No. That sentence says that, in order for something to be a slave, it must be a device. In order for it to be a master, it must be a device. And in order for it to be part of a PAN, it must be a device. But it says nothing about whether or not a device can be something that is not a slave, master or part of a PAN. As a fourth option a device operating as a stand-alone, not connected to anything but the Matrix itself, seems viable.

The RAW is a bit complicated here. In my initial reading I thought it was restricted so only Slaves had to be devices, but upon re-reading page 233, the device restriction does apply to Masters as well for PANs. The section on page 234-235 lays out device and persona icons as different things. Page 218 definitely also states that when you hop onto the matrix, the device you do so with changes from a Device Icon to a Persona Icon. (Note: Riggers that jump into a drone or vehicle merge that device icon into their persona icon, so it's not as big an issue for riggers, but it is still an issue for riggers with multiple drones.)

There might be an odd rules interpretation here that works though. (EDIT: Which kerbarian seemed to have noticed before me) When you hop onto the matrix, your Cyberdeck/Commlink/RCC's Device Icon changes to a Persona Icon, but the physical deck is of course still a device that is still on the matrix. It's icon type is simply being over-written by having a user. I guess you can still have things slaved to it by that reading? That also explains Technomancers not getting to be masters, as they are a Persona without a device (much like IC or Sprites, which are also Persona without devices). This interpretation, while a bit odd, allows Riggers with an RCC to still have all their drones slaved to it, or a Decker on the matrix to have the team's devices slaved to his deck none the less.

So let's re-evaluate the idea of a Decker slaving his Cyberdeck to a Rating 6 Commlink under this new more nuanced interpretation of devices and their icons. The decker has configured his deck for maximum offense (attack and sleaze) with his firewall set low, because he expects his Commlink's device rating 6 firewall to be used instead. He then slaves the deck to the commlink. When he hops onto the matrix, he converts his deck's device icon into a persona icon, but the device is still a device, so it's still slaved to the commlink. He goes off and hacks his way into a host and manages to trigger some IC. The IC targets his Persona Icon with an attack. Does the he get to use his commlink's Firewall? Page 233: "Whenever a slaved device is called on to make a defense test, it uses either its own or its master’s rating for each rating in the test. " So it looks like the IC is targeting the Persona, not a device, so the slaved status doesn't kick in, and the commlink doesn't help the decker.

Ok, I think this interpretation works. You get no real benefit from slaving a deck to a commlink while on a matrix run, but it's still possible for the team to slave their gear to the deck while he's on a matrix run, and simmilarly for a Rigger's RCC to have drones slaved to it while the Rigger is doing his thing.

Nice catch yourself! Getting a mark on a slave also means getting a mark on the master, which if it is a slave, would therefore kick in and slide up the chain. This is a very good reason not to daisy chain devices.


Yup. You have to be in the host to mess with an icon in the host, and the persona icon is the commlink's icon. Well that, or you have to get a hardline connection to the commlink in meat-space. Beyond that, all hacking is done in the matrix. Even AR hacking is done in a Matrix window, not in normal AR Overlay.

If someone has taken his persona icon into a host, and you look at his meat body location within 100 meters, you will be able to locate icons for all of his wireless enabled devices except his commlink. Mind you the whole Persona overrides the Device setup doesn't mean his entire PAN Icon goes with him, only the device that he is using to hop onto the matrix with (his deck, commlink, or RCC) is converted into the persona. In other words, you can't slave everything to a commlink and then open an AR window and travel into a secure host to prevent someone from hacking your gun, or cyberware. This trick only works for your commlink, deck, RCC, etc. It also may impose a -2 distraction penalty to your real world actions because of the matrix overlay in your senses.

Note: Riggers that hop into a vehicle or drone merge that device icon into the persona as well, so a Rigger that is hopped in has a Persona with both his RCC (if he is using one) and his Drone/Vehicle icon subsumed. Weather or not he could then take that persona into a Host... Ugh... that's complicated. Matrix activities while rigging. In theory a Decker could also have a Control Rig, and instead of using an RCC, he could be using his Deck, and therefore he could be jumped into a drone, still have Sleaze and Attack attributes, and be on the matrix with a persona (as rigger expressly have a persona). That means hacking while rigging is possible, so you could be hacking into host while also rigged into a drone, which would make the drone harder to attack because it's Icon is in the host?

But isn't the IC targeting his persona icon, which is still a device that has had its icon overwritten? And since it is still a device that is on the matrix, it would in fact get to use the firewall of the commlink, correct?

The icon is a persona icon, not a device icon. The IC is attacking the persona, not the deck itself, and only devices (not personas) can be slaved. To quote the last line on page 234: "When is a device not a device? When it’s a persona!" and then on page 235: "When a person uses a device to connect to the Matrix, the device’s icon is subsumed by the persona’s icon, so it’s basically gone from the Matrix until the persona jacks out." The IC is attacking a persona, and the persona can't be slaved, so the master-slave relationship doesn't kick in.