Matrix Perception Table, similar to the Astral one Options

[Makki]

I (and some others) don't like Matrix Perception as written. Neither SR4 nor 5.
Best thing would be a table including certain thresholds like those Assensing guys got.

Does anyone want to help me set one up?

[Makki]

0 Hits

• nothing

1 Hits

• all icons, their access IDs and their status
• type and edit date of a file
• whether a file or node is encyrpted

2 Hits

• the class of an icon (Persona, Agent, IC, ...)
• any programs running
• a node's alert status

3 Hits

• whether a program's, a node's or an Agent's rating is lower or higher than your OS rating
• an icon's Matrix damage
• whether a Trace is running

4 Hits

• the exact rating of a program, node or Agent
• any hidden connections to other nodes
• presence of Databombs

5 Hits

• whether an icon is Resonance-based

[Tymeaus Jalynsfe...]

A lot of the stuff above should be the results of an Analyze roll, rather than a Perception roll, at least in SR4A.

[Makki]

A lot of the stuff above should be the results of an Analyze roll, rather than a Perception roll, at least in SR4A.

Please explain the difference.Isn't Matrix Perception rolled as Computer+Analyze?
Bzw, basically everything in the table I took from the Matrix Perception sidebar in SR4A

[Tymeaus Jalynsfe...]

Please explain the difference.Isn't Matrix Perception rolled as Computer+Analyze?
Bzw, basically everything in the table I took from the Matrix Perception sidebar in SR4A

Duh... You are right. Been a long day, with only a few hours sleep. Thanks (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)

[Tycho]

I think some of the things should not have a general Theshold. For Example:

- a Databomb should only be seen if you have more hits than the Data Bomb Rating.
- a hidden connection should only be seen if you have more hits than the decker for hiding the connection
- etc

[RHat]

- a Databomb should only be seen if you have more hits than the Data Bomb Rating.

Please take a look at Data Bomb damage before suggesting something like that. They're out of control enough as it is - Rating 6 Data Bomb can very easily equal a dead technomancer.

[Tycho]

I don't care for the damage and TMs in SR5 are fucked anyway. Point is, you should only see a Databomb if you are better than the one hiding the bomb.

cya
Tycho

[Tymeaus Jalynsfe...]

Please take a look at Data Bomb damage before suggesting something like that. They're out of control enough as it is - Rating 6 Data Bomb can very easily equal a dead technomancer.

Why? They are dangerous, to be sure (and why should not a Rating 6 Databomb kill a technomancer?), but I can guarantee you that they are far less lethal in SR5, as the effective rating of the bomb you set is equal to hits, rather than Rating, like in SR4A. It is very unlikely that you will see many Rating 7, Psychotropic 6 Black Pit Databombs in SR5, due to he nature of how they are set. I support the idea that they should be an opposed test, rather than a threshold to detect (coming from someone who played a Hacker for a long time). *shrug*

I can guarantee, have a Hacker type forget to check just once, and get smacked by a Databomb, and they will never forget to check again, assuming that they survive the initial experience (and yes, it will slow down the Hacker a bit, as it should, SR5 paradigms be damned). Some things should be deadly at the outset, and if you are expecting a cakewalk through a Zero Zone Data System, well, you are out of luck in that regard. Hit a databomb in that kind of system, and you should fry like an egg, though you MIGHT get lucky and survive it.

[RHat]

and why should not a Rating 6 Databomb kill a technomancer?

Instant kills are, in general, poor design. And when bringing in a rule, you have to consider not simply the way you think it should be, but the implications of the rule on both narrow and broad scales - the latter generally being more important for a good game.

[RHat]

and why should not a Rating 6 Databomb kill a technomancer?

Instant kills are, in general, poor design. And when bringing in a rule, you have to consider not simply the way you think it should be, but the implications of the rule on both narrow and broad scales - the latter generally being more important for a good game.

[Tymeaus Jalynsfe...]

Instant kills are, in general, poor design. And when bringing in a rule, you have to consider not simply the way you think it should be, but the implications of the rule on both narrow and broad scales - the latter generally being more important for a good game.

You will likely see a lot less in the way of KILLS in SR5, as compared to SR4 (due to how the Data Bomb works in the system). And honestly, I never saw a Databomb KILL anyone, though they do have great potential for that, especially in SR4A (Dice damage as compared to Rating Damage is pretty hefty, to be sure). As I said, My Cyberlogician consistently used High Rated Pavlov Databombs (Rating 7, with Psychotropic 6, Pavlov) to protect his systems. Not sure if they ever killed anyone, but I do know that the Rating 5 Databomb I encountered (Did not detect it prior to infiltration of the system, and the damage roll was less than average, so I even survived it failry intact) was potentialy deadly. Databombs slows you down (and put the fear of god in you when you detect a high rated one, which may even result in a hacker not even trying to penetrate for fear of brainfry), and that is what they are supposed to do (at least in the sense of a metagame mechanic). They are speed bumps, more than anything else. With SR5, it is hghly unlikely one will ever see such a monstrosity (Rating 7 Bombs) as my Cyberlogician used in SR4A.

Besides, a Hacker usining AR hacking (which My character performed about 70% of the time) has no fear of dying from a Databomb, and only dislike them it they are set to destroy the file you are after. *shrug*

[RHat]

You will likely see a lot less in the way of KILLS in SR5, as compared to SR4 (due to how the Data Bomb works in the system). And honestly, I never saw a Databomb KILL anyone, though they do have great potential for that, especially in SR4A (Dice damage as compared to Rating Damage is pretty hefty, to be sure). As I said, My Cyberlogician consistently used High Rated Pavlov Databombs (Rating 7, with Psychotropic 6, Pavlov) to protect his systems. Not sure if they ever killed anyone, but I do know that the Rating 5 Databomb I encountered (Did not detect it prior to infiltration of the system, and the damage roll was less than average, so I even survived it failry intact) was potentialy deadly. Databombs slows you down (and put the fear of god in you when you detect a high rated one, which may even result in a hacker not even trying to penetrate for fear of brainfry), and that is what they are supposed to do (at least in the sense of a metagame mechanic). They are speed bumps, more than anything else. With SR5, it is hghly unlikely one will ever see such a monstrosity (Rating 7 Bombs) as my Cyberlogician used in SR4A.

Besides, a Hacker usining AR hacking (which My character performed about 70% of the time) has no fear of dying from a Databomb, and only dislike them it they are set to destroy the file you are after. *shrug*

My issue is with the notion of having a Data Bomb's Rating set the threshold to see it - if they're easy enough to detect, it's reasonably okay for them to do the sort of damage that they now do. But if you need to roll 7 hits on a Matrix Perception test to spot it? Hell no.

[Makki]

My issue is with the notion of having a Data Bomb's Rating set the threshold to see it - if they're easy enough to detect, it's reasonably okay for them to do the sort of damage that they now do. But if you need to roll 7 hits on a Matrix Perception test to spot it? Hell no.

and by sr4a rules if you had one hit, you were allowed to ask "is there a data bomb?"

[RHat]

and by sr4a rules if you had one hit, you were allowed to ask "is there a data bomb?"

Given their damage? Absolutely fine. If you're gonna make them harder to spot, they can't be as strong as they are. One or the other.

[Tymeaus Jalynsfe...]

Given their damage? Absolutely fine. If you're gonna make them harder to spot, they can't be as strong as they are. One or the other.

Except that you spread your "Hits" on multiple questions. I cannot tell you how often I have seen a Hacker forget to ask about the Data Bomb. *shrug*

[Repulse]

So, in AR a databomb doesnt do anything (other than possibly toasting the file it was planted on)?

[Tymeaus Jalynsfe...]

So, in AR a databomb doesnt do anything (other than possibly toasting the file it was planted on)?

Correct... Might cause you to reboot your Comlink/Deck, but you would take absolutely NO DAMAGE WHATSOEVER.

[Repulse]

Wouldnt it cause damage to your deck/comlink though?

[Tymeaus Jalynsfe...]

Wouldnt it cause damage to your deck/comlink though?

Why would it? A Data bomb damages persona and files, that is all. Since you are not connected to your persona in any way in AR, there is no damage transfer. At worst, your Persona is derezzed, you reboot and then you go again. That is one of the greatest benefits of AR Hacking. The MEAT You cannot be targeted by anything that does biofeedback or psychtropic effect. *shrug*

[RHat]

Not so for Technomancers, though - they take Stun in place of Matrix damage.

[Tymeaus Jalynsfe...]

Not so for Technomancers, though - they take Stun in place of Matrix damage.

Yes, that is true, Technomancers would really suck it. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)
Which is why they should ALWAYS check for Data Bombs specifically, each and every time. They will only forget once. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)

[RHat]

Yes, that is true, Technomancers would really suck it. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)
Which is why they should ALWAYS check for Data Bombs specifically, each and every time. They will only forget once. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)

Sure - and, especially given their bonus to MPT, that's acceptable so long as it's easy to spot. But if you need 6 hits to spot a data bomb that has a pretty strong chance of outright killing you? Just no.