SR5: Rigging Questions Options

[BlackJaw]

1) Firstly I'm happy to have a some quasi official autosoft prices!
In 5th edition, does anything cap the function of an Autosoft? Can a pilot 4 vehicle use a rating 6 autosoft? I see no limit in 5th edition, but my 4th edition mindset wonders if I'm missing something.

2) I'm rigging my Ares Venture in Hot VR through my rating 1 control rig and an RCC, all hardline. I have a mounted gun on the venture and I want to use it to shoot at some poor corp security goon. Does my Control Rig improve my Accuracy? I don't think it does because it expressly adds to handling and speed, but doesn't mention accuracy.
Note: Passive Sensor targeting would let me use my rating 4 sensor system instead of the weapon's accuracy, but I suspect a Smartlinked weapon will simply be better.

3) I suspect the Control Rig's "reduce vehicle threshold" feature doesn't apply to attacks with a mounted gun because shooting someone isn't a vehicle threshold. Right?

4) Is Gunnery supposed to be Logic or Attribute linked? Does it depend on if I'm jumped in or not?

5) Page 445 says I can use Electronic Warfare in place of Perception when using Sensor systems. Drones and Vehicles are all sensor based when you are jumped in. All the examples involving vehicles use perception, but I'm assuming Electronic Warfare is valid for all those situations, but I'm stilling using Intuition on those dice pools.

6) Attempting to evade sensor lock uses "Infiltration" (Sneak) but is capped at Vehicle skill rating. Is this still a Vehicle Test to which I can apply the benefits of a Control Rig? I assume only specializations in Sneak, not piloting, apply... but that could mean someone with a Rank of 6 piloting and no specialization but rank 6 with a specialization in Sneak is actually better at flying when evading sensor lock than normal.

7) A vehicle that takes damage suffers "wounds" which reduce it's handling, which is a limit now ("Busted vehicles just don’t handle well. Apply the vehicle’s damage modifier as a penalty to Handling." page 201). A Fed-Boing Commuter has handling 3 but body 16. If the vehicle suffers 12 boxes of damage, it's handling would be -1. Does that mean it goes out of control because it's impossible to get any success on a piloting roll and you need to make one every Turn or it goes out of control? Of course if it's being piloted in (cold or hot) VR (+2 handling) by someone with a Control Rig 1 (+1 handling) then it's still got a handling of 2... so I guess it's not a big problem if it does work that way.

[Aaron]

1) No.

2) It looks like the Handling and Speed increase by your control rig rating, but not Accuracy. But you do get bonus dice for Gunnery tests, because it's a Vehicle skill.

3) Vehicle Tests are described on p. 199 and do not include shooting people.

4) Gunnery is linked to Agility. According to one part of the book, you use Logic when controlling a weapon remotely and Agility in another. We'll have to wait for the errata on that one.

5) Seems like a sound assumption.

6) It's not a Vehicle Test (p. 199 again). Even if it was, both specialization and the control rig give bonus dice, not bonus skill levels.

7) I don't know. I'll ask.

[DrZaius]

7) On page 201, there is a chart for "Piloting damaged vehicle" which states: "–(damage modifier) Handling (minimum 1)[emphasis mine]". So your Plane / Tank / etc. will continue to go until it gets blow'd up, but it'll be a pain to drive.

[Tymeaus Jalynsfe...]

4. Gunnery is a dual linked skill.

If you are using it manually (ie, there in person), then it is an Agility Test.
If you are remotly controlling it (ie. NOT there in person), then it is a Logic Test.

I would expect that Errata will have little to do with this, as that is how it SHOULD be. Though it could likely be better explained.

[Tymeaus Jalynsfe...]

7) On page 201, there is a chart for "Piloting damaged vehicle" which states: "–(damage modifier) Handling (minimum 1)[emphasis mine]". So your Plane / Tank / etc. will continue to go until it gets blow'd up, but it'll be a pain to drive.

Assuming that Crash Tests still require a Threshold of 3 (2 with a VCR?), that Minimum 1 Limit will result in crashed vehicles the second you are forced to make a crash test, unless you are willing to spend Edge on it.

[Flaser]

1) As far as we can tell, no. It's not a radical departure, since Auto-softs only go up to rating 6.

2) Aaron is wrong. Actually your control rig *does* affected the accuracy of *mounted* weapons:
"When you’re jumped into a vehicle, drone, or other device, the limits of that device are increased by the rating of your control rig. This includes vehicle and drone Sensor, Speed, and Handling, and the Accuracy of mounted weapons when used by the rigger. The control rig also connects more smoothly through an RCC when operating in VR." - pg. 266

3) Aaron is right, while Gunnery is a Vehicle *Skill*, using it does not count as a vehicle test.

4) The book is contradicting itself on this issue. Gunnery is listed as an Agility linked skill in the skills section (pg. 146), but the actual combat section says it should be Logic linked:

"Vehicle-mounted weapons are fired using Weapon Skill + Agility [Accuracy] for manual operation, like door guns on mounts, or Gunnery + Logic [Accuracy] for remote operated systems." - pg 183

Since the only weapons that categorically fall under the Gunnery skill (big-BIG guns!) can only be operated remotely, or at least through powered/mechanical targeting system, I think Gunnery should only ever be used with Logic.

5) "When you use the sensor array for Perception Tests, you may use your Electronic Warfare skill in place of your Perception skill, and you may use the sensor’s Rating as your limit." - Emphasis mine. Another oversight in the rules, is that you shouldn't be able to cram a sensor array into a drone smaller then medium as it doesn't have the space... but apparently they still do at the rating in the vehicles table. The whole section on sensors could use some work. Anyway to your actual question: nothing indicates that you shouldn't use Intuition.

6) I'd say that the control rig applies, since you're piloting the vehicle (so it's a vehicle test). As for the whole issue with specialization: Dunno good question... I see two approaches, one: make the cap apply to specialization too, two: I'd make the player re-take the specialization for hiding with a vehicle, as the task is so much different then doing the same in person and have it apply by vehicle type.

7) I assume your interpretation is correct... that big whale in the Sky would indeed go out of control way before it disintegrated.

[DrZaius]

Assuming that Crash Tests still require a Threshold of 3 (2 with a VCR?), that Minimum 1 Limit will result in crashed vehicles the second you are forced to make a crash test, unless you are willing to spend Edge on it.

Crashes are different now. First, I'm fairly certain that your VCR reduces the threshold of vehicles tests by it's rating (so a rating 3 control rig would make even the hardest maneuvers simple in comparison). Crashing only occurs "1) as the result of a ramming test, 2) when a vehicle on a collison course fails a vehicle test, or 3) when the GM feels it's thematically appropriate"(I'm paraphrasing). So, despite the fact that you're flying on a wing and a prayer, unless you try something drastic you should be able to nurse your wounded bird home despite it's handling being reduced to 1. Additionally, bear in mind that driving in VR gives +2 Handling. It occurs to me that that could mean that while your vehicle's handling has been reduced to 1 from wounds, your effective handling would be 3 while in VR, no matter how damaged the vehicle is. That Roadmaster is going to keep on chugging, and ain't stopping for nobody.

-DrZ

[Tymeaus Jalynsfe...]

Crashes are different now. First, I'm fairly certain that your VCR reduces the threshold of vehicles tests by it's rating (so a rating 3 control rig would make even the hardest maneuvers simple in comparison). Crashing only occurs "1) as the result of a ramming test, 2) when a vehicle on a collison course fails a vehicle test, or 3) when the GM feels it's thematically appropriate"(I'm paraphrasing). So, despite the fact that you're flying on a wing and a prayer, unless you try something drastic you should be able to nurse your wounded bird home despite it's handling being reduced to 1. Additionally, bear in mind that driving in VR gives +2 Handling. It occurs to me that that could mean that while your vehicle's handling has been reduced to 1 from wounds, your effective handling would be 3 while in VR, no matter how damaged the vehicle is. That Roadmaster is going to keep on chugging, and ain't stopping for nobody.

-DrZ

That would make sense... Thanks (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)

[Aaron]

One thing to keep in mind is that when it comes to skills, "linked" is not the same as "always rolled with the skill."

[Flaser]

One thing to keep in mind is that when it comes to skills, "linked" is not the same as "always rolled with the skill."

True enough, but it's a particularly egregious when you pick an attribute that you normally *don't* roll with.

[Jaid]

One thing to keep in mind is that when it comes to skills, "linked" is not the same as "always rolled with the skill."

it's beginning to look like as far as gunnery is concerned, linked is actually going to mean "almost never rolled with the skill".

i mean, really, how many characters do you know of that picked up gunnery and *aren't* planning on using it to fire weapons remotely?

[HugeC]

If Gunnery were linked to Logic, you couldn't use a reflex recorder to be better at it (it requires that the skill is linked to a physical attribute). Perhaps that's why they did it that way?

[X-Kalibur]

If Gunnery were linked to Logic, you couldn't use a reflex recorder to be better at it (it requires that the skill is linked to a physical attribute). Perhaps that's why they did it that way?

But what rigger is A: Investing in agility and B: how are they going to use a reflex recorder for a gun they are firing while in VR?

[HugeC]

But what rigger is A: Investing in agility and B: how are they going to use a reflex recorder for a gun they are firing while in VR?

Well, A: they don't have to, and B: it says "The reflex recorder adds 1 to the Rating of a specific skill linked to a Physical attribute."

[Tymeaus Jalynsfe...]

Well, A: they don't have to, and B: it says "The reflex recorder adds 1 to the Rating of a specific skill linked to a Physical attribute."

It may be linked to Agility by default, but I would never give you the bonus from the Reflex Recorder if you were using Remote Firing (which uses Logic instead). Would work great for the times you fired the gun Manually, though. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)

[X-Kalibur]

It may be linked to Agility by default, but I would never give you the bonus from the Reflex Recorder if you were using Remote Firing (which uses Logic instead). Would work great for the times you fired the gun Manually, though. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)

The irony being that manually firing the turret uses the appropriate weapon skill, not gunnery.

[Voran]

I have a thematic question about riggers.

In your games, when do you find Rigger use advancing to the use of things beyond ground/water craft, into helicopters/vtols, or specialized watercraft? When we look at some of the Jackpoint stuff, we'll see things like Sounder or Kane talking about some vehicle they have (with list prices in the millions). If you look at the logistics of Rigger use tho, you see that while sure it might be cool to have a combat helicopter or even a docwagon copter rigged to be a combat one, the price of AMMO alone tends to make it not as worthwhile. Rockets and stuff start in the thousands per shot, whereas on a smaller scale, but similar effect, you could load a medium airdrone with a grenade launcher and provide fire support.

A Panzer might be cool for a smuggling game, but not so much for a Seattle one, I mean, you bring a tank into play and you get more than law enforcement on your ass. Likewise, bigger craft like panzers and vtols and vectored thrusts or actual combat choppers cost huge money, and if you're not getting repairs/etc covered in cost, you lose money even when don't need it for combat. So do you find your riggers stick to the usual "some sort of modified Roadmaster, maybe a boat, small army of drones, etc" and if so, for how long.

[T2-Keks]

In my games riggers stick to the smaller stuff. The stuff that is easier to hide. We never had a campaign high-powered enough to have actual combat choppers for the players. Although i am planning a little side campaign with mercenaries in a warzone where ressources will be more of a story element then actual stuff the PCs own.

One of my chars once managed to capture a helicopter from a rival runner team but then dumped it because getting away with it would have caused too much heat.

In general i think it is a question of "How much should your game be like an action movie?". We usually play more on the small scale runner side so that material losses hurt and stuff with high maintenance cost is avoided.

[Tymeaus Jalynsfe...]

The irony being that manually firing the turret uses the appropriate weapon skill, not gunnery.

Not so... Look at the Gunnery Skill...

Gunnery is used when firing any vehicle-mounted weapon, regardless of how or where the weapon is mounted. This skill extends to manual and sensor-enhanced gunnery.

So, no, it does not. If the weapon is VEHICLE MOUNTED, you use the gunnery skill for manual firing. Pretty cut and dried, there.

[Tymeaus Jalynsfe...]

In my games riggers stick to the smaller stuff. The stuff that is easier to hide. We never had a campaign high-powered enough to have actual combat choppers for the players. Although i am planning a little side campaign with mercenaries in a warzone where ressources will be more of a story element then actual stuff the PCs own.

One of my chars once managed to capture a helicopter from a rival runner team but then dumped it because getting away with it would have caused too much heat.

In general i think it is a question of "How much should your game be like an action movie?". We usually play more on the small scale runner side so that material losses hurt and stuff with high maintenance cost is avoided.

I have a SR4A Russian Mercenary (Ex-Special Forces, Wanted by his former Country for war crimes) that I play from time to time, and he is investing into some interesting vehicles. He is about 1/2 done with a reconstruction of an old MI-24 Hind-D/E Gunship Helicopter (He has a small base in the NAN across from Seattle proper, on a small island). A hobby, to be sure, but you never know when you might need a gunship. He also has an old Riverine Boat (with concealed gun pits) that he recovered and restored. Nothing like the old school for vehicles. Of course, upgrading the electronic packages is challenging, but he has time. He has gone so far as to gather schematics on the vehicles and all the weapons packages and has been refitting his vehicles with those. Amazing the amount of retro equipment lying around in Russia that you can get your hands on, if you know the right people. Also managed to get enough fuel in his bunkers for the two vehicles for some extended operations. The character is a lot of fun. More so because he is unaugmented and non-magical. So, everything is a monumental challenge to him, as he tries to compete with those samurai who are either on the cutting edge, or are awakened. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)

The Character is not a TRUE Rigger, to be sure (No 'ware to fill the role), but he is a HIGHLY competent Driver/Pilot (Skill 4's).

[BlackJaw]

Not so... Look at the Gunnery Skill...

Gunnery is used when firing any vehicle-mounted weapon, regardless of how or where the weapon is mounted. This skill extends to manual and sensor-enhanced gunnery.

So, no, it does not. If the weapon is VEHICLE MOUNTED, you use the gunnery skill for manual firing. Pretty cut and dried, there.

Except you also have this quote from the book too:

Vehicle-mounted weapons are fired using Weapon Skill + Agility [Accuracy] for manual operation, like door guns on mounts, or Gunnery + Logic [Accuracy] for remote operated systems.

Which implies that if the weapon is vehicle mounted with a manual operation add-on, you use the normal skill, but if you use it remotely you use the Gunnery skill with Logic. Unless you interpret "Weapon skill" to only be Gunnery, of course, why then not just say Gunnery? Maybe the intent is that you can use the base weapon skill or gunnery? There are other examples of such flexibility in the rules, like Electronic Warfare standing in for Perception when using a Sensory Array.

Or maybe it's just bad editing and will be fixed in errata. Plenty of that in the rules right now too.

[Tymeaus Jalynsfe...]

So, no, it does not. If the weapon is VEHICLE MOUNTED, you use the gunnery skill for manual firing. Pretty cut and dried, there.

Except you also have this quote from the book too: Which implies that if the weapon is vehicle mounted with a manual operation add-on, you use the normal skill, but if you use it remotely you use the Gunnery skill with Logic. Unless you interpret "Weapon skill" to only be Gunnery, of course, why then not just say Gunnery? Maybe the intent is that you can use the base weapon skill or gunnery? There are other examples of such flexibility in the rules, like Electronic Warfare standing in for Perception when using a Sensory Array.

Or maybe it's just bad editing and will be fixed in errata. Plenty of that in the rules right now too.

Which works, because the weapon skill for vehicle mounted weapons IS GUNNERY. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)

[HugeC]

It may be linked to Agility by default, but I would never give you the bonus from the Reflex Recorder if you were using Remote Firing (which uses Logic instead). Would work great for the times you fired the gun Manually, though. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)

House rules are useful things! If you can explain to me how the skill at driving a car using a steering wheel and pedals translates directly into skill at "being" the car in VR, while the reflex recorder, which modifies your brain, doesn't translate, perhaps I will join you.

[Tymeaus Jalynsfe...]

House rules are useful things! If you can explain to me how the skill at driving a car using a steering wheel and pedals translates directly into skill at "being" the car in VR, while the reflex recorder, which modifies your brain, doesn't translate, perhaps I will join you.

The reflex recorder does not modify your brain. It enhances muscle memory. That is why it is a REFLEX recorder. Your brain is not muscle memory. Explain to me how muscle memory is going to benefit you when you are piloting through brain impulses to a device THAT HAS NO MUSCLES. Your muscle memory will not help you pilot a drone. Your muscles mean squat to the drone.

[SpellBinder]

How much active thought do you place into your actions while you're driving? How much when tying your shoes?

Not everything is stored in the brain, and while the implantation description of a Reflex Recorder has changed from the spinal column in SR4a to the brain itself in SR5, the description still says it is attached to the nerves for motor reflexes.

Being in VR means your brain is doing all the work. Outside of VR it's your full body.

If the skill in use is tied to a Physical Attribute, I'd say the Reflex Recorder applies. If that same skill jumps to a Mental Attribute, I'd say the Reflex Recorder no longer applies.