Airburst, Yes it should be death Options

[Umidori]

One obvious fix for overly lethal weapon is making them hard to get. For example, it's actually pretty rare in the US for criminals to have machine guns and even rarer to have grenades. Converting a semi-auto weapon to a machine gun is a lot easier then building a reliable and safe to carry hand grenade.

There are plenty of military surplus hand-grenades floating around the world. I'm certain if organized crime wanted to get their hands on them, they could.

I think that grenades simply fail to appeal to most criminals - they're interested in money, not blood. Grenades not only are risky to use - they can be dropped or "scatter" back - but they also draw way more attention than they're worth. Any ordinary shootout will get the cops called on ya, but no one will hold it against the cops if the shooters get away before the police can respond. But add grenades to the mix? People will freak out, and the police will be under a lot more pressure to find the culprits, and consequently will look for them that much harder.

Now, Shadowrunners? Mercs who are happy to geek drekheads for money? Yeah, grenades are gonna be something they consider, because if you want to stun, wound, or frag a group of people quickly, there are few better tools than a grenade.

~Umi

[kzt]

Both blasting caps and plastic explosive are controlled. Plastic explosive is a lot more controlled, but you can't buy either of these at the hardware store. Making your own primary explosives is not a safe hobby, which is what you need to make caps or primers.

[Tymeaus Jalynsfe...]

Both blasting caps and plastic explosive are controlled. Plastic explosive is a lot more controlled, but you can't buy either of these at the hardware store. Making your own primary explosives is not a safe hobby, which is what you need to make caps or primers.

Primers are not that difficult, but you really should be good at it. It is not a forgiving hobby. As for blasting caps, they are not so hard to get in some parts of America (I imagine the same is true worldwide), even if they are controlled substances. Guns are supposedly controlled substances, as are drugs, and look at the sheer proliferation of both of those in the criminal world. *shrug*

[Tzeentch]

The problem with SR5 grenades are so patently obvious I'm still shocked there's so much debate about it. A High explosive grenade does 16P and will still be doing 8P (SMG damage) at 4 meters. That's equivalent to (gulp!) over 9 KILOGRAMS of commercial explosives.

That sounds reasonable? And then you have Blasts in a Confined Space (p. 183) which is just pure insanity on the level of the Crash rules that somehow keeps getting repeated every edition.

[Tymeaus Jalynsfe...]

The problem with SR5 grenades are so patently obvious I'm still shocked there's so much debate about it. A High explosive grenade does 16P and will still be doing 8P (SMG damage) at 4 meters. That's equivalent to (gulp!) over 9 KILOGRAMS of commercial explosives.

That sounds reasonable? And then you have Blasts in a Confined Space (p. 183) which is just pure insanity on the level of the Crash rules that somehow keeps getting repeated every edition.

No arguments here... The problem is coming up with a viable set of rules for explosives, and then apply them consistently across the board, for commercial explosives, exotic explosives, and Devices such as Missiles, Rockets and Grenades. That is a monumental task, especially if you want people to play with those rules.

[Umidori]

The difference is that one is 9 kilograms of commercial explosives, and the other is a fragmentation grenade. The first kills you with a pressure wave, the second kills you with bits of shrapnel.

~Umi

[Tymeaus Jalynsfe...]

The difference is that one is 9 kilograms of commercial explosives, and the other is a fragmentation grenade. The first kills you with a pressure wave, the second kills you with bits of shrapnel.

~Umi

And yet I can guarantee that a Lethal Concussion Grenade (All about the pressure wave, after all) would NEVER weigh in at 9 Kilograms. There has always been a disconnect between the Damage a Grenade puts out and the equivalent amount of Explosives barely leaving you with a bruise, even when you hold it in your hand. Detonate either in your open palm, and the resulting damage is no where close to being equivalent. You could argue that the grenade is compressed in a rigid container, and this is true, but the weight of commercial explosives you need is still not proportionate (even if you could fist it, which would likely blow your hand off, but would be survivable - try that with a grenade in your palm), for the weight of the explosive and the damage output when they are compared.

[Umidori]

Arsenal attempted to make Demolitions useful, but it was still very convoluted, in part because real life explosives are themselves quite tricky.

Anyway, there were rules for tamped or contained explosives that upped the damage, so yeah, I think the whole "rigid container" aspect of a grenade would contribute to the damage.

There's also the matter of the strength of the explosives. Commercial Explosives are only Rating 5 - they're not very strong stuff, comparatively. This would be stuff like ANFO, which has an explosive velocity of 3,200 m/s. A "lethal concussion grenade" wouldn't be using something this weak - it'd be using a more powerful explosive, and consequently you wouldn't need nearly as much of it.

In contrast, a modern frag grenade contains High Explosives, specifically "Comp B", a mixture of RTX and TNT. This compound has an explosive velocity of 8,050 m/s, which is just under the explosive velocity of C-4, which clocks in at 8,092 m/s. Thus, if you wanted to compare SR values, you'd need to compare to the Plastic Explosives category, not the Commercial Explosives one. So with grenades, we're talking explosive ratings of 10, 15, 20, or 25 instead of merely 5.

Now, I'll admit, part of the problem is the usage of the term "Commercial Explosives", as there are a number of compounds which are used commercially that are actually more powerful than explosives like C-4, and which are technically High Explosives. The problem is one of abstracting rules from reality for playability, and also perhaps a lack of research into the matter.

In real life, the term "Commercial Explosives" includes both High Explosives (things that Detonate) and Low Explosives (things that Deflagrate). Now, would the rules better mirror reality if they split explosives along these lines? Yeah, they sure would. But maybe the devs felt that "Commercial Explosives" was a term that read simpler, that would be less confusing to people who aren't aware of the differences between High and Low explosives, or who may not even know how to pronounce "deflagrate". Of course what you call it doesn't matter, because the actual important factor is the mechanics - in this case a Low Explosive is anything with a low Explosive Rating like 5, and a High Explosive is anything with a rating in the upper range, like 20.

We can safely assume that a frag grenade in SR employs high rating High Explosives. We can even justify it with some in-world reason, like grenades in the Sixth World have evolved to use the highest power, highest rating, "Highest Explosive" compounds available. After all, they're a military device, intended to be used against full body Milspec Armor (which includes all the advancements of 60ish years of tech, like Dikoting) and even armored vehicles. And even putting aside practical concerns of combat effectiveness, with the advent of Desert Wars, there's the whole spectacle aspect too. You're gonna get better ratings on the trideo if the grenades explode like gorram truck bombs instead of just today's standard, piddling-in-comparison booms. So you cram the damn things with C-28 and watch the mayhem and the ratings soar.

~Umi

[Tymeaus Jalynsfe...]

All very true, except that the grenades should then cost a LOT more than the 35-45 Nuyen they currently cost, don't you think? See, that is the issue. Obviously, they are not using the High End High Explosives, because they are costed way out of synch. Lets see - for SR4A...

Blasting Cap/Fuse (10 Nuyen)
Additional Wireless/Radio Detonator (40 Nuyen)
Casing (Lets cost that at an economical 10 Nuyen, which is so far out of whack that I likely do not really even have to point that one out)
1/2 Kilo of Explosives -

Commercial Explosives (Rating 3) - 100 Nuyen/Kilo (so 50 Nuyen)
Plastic Explosives (Rating 4-15) - Cost is Rating x100 Nuyen, So from 400 Nuyen/Kilo to 1500 Nuyen /Kilo (so anywhere from 200 to 750/Kilo)

So... Add 1, subtract 3, and carry the 9 and you get...

110 Nuyen/Grenade (Commercial Explosives)
all the way to 260 to 810 Nuyen/Grenade (Plastic Explosives)

and the grand Prize is that Grenades ONLY COST a peasly Amount of Nuyen:

Fragmentation: 35 Nuyen
High Explosive: 45 Nuyen

See the problem yet?

[Umidori]

Oh, no, I totally agree they need to cost more. It makes sense both from a balance point of view considering their damage, and an in-world point of view considering they're gorram military grenades.

I was only playing devil's advocate in arguing that their power isn't, strictly speaking, too high. I readily admit that their cost and availability is too low.

~Umi

[Tzeentch]

The difference is that one is 9 kilograms of commercial explosives, and the other is a fragmentation grenade. The first kills you with a pressure wave, the second kills you with bits of shrapnel.

One is several kilograms of commercial high explosives. The other is a small high explosive grenade with maybe a few ounces of filler. (Fragmentation grenades are another level of crazy.) I chose that example precisely because mechanically they are the same as far as Power/meter and AP goes. Also, the Avail is in the same range (plastic explosives are 16F, the HE grenade is 11F).

[Tymeaus Jalynsfe...]

Oh, no, I totally agree they need to cost more. It makes sense both from a balance point of view considering their damage, and an in-world point of view considering they're gorram military grenades.

I was only playing devil's advocate in arguing that their power isn't, strictly speaking, too high. I readily admit that their cost and availability is too low.

~Umi

Ahhhh. Got you.. Then yes, it appears we are on the same page. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)

[Umidori]

One is several kilograms of commercial high explosives. The other is a small high explosive grenade with maybe a few ounces of filler. (Fragmentation grenades are another level of crazy.) I chose that example precisely because mechanically they are the same as far as Power/meter and AP goes. Also, the Avail is in the same range (plastic explosives are 16F, the HE grenade is 11F).

I've addressed this above - what SR calls "Commercial Explosives" should be called "Low Explosives". Easily and neatly deals with the problem.

~Umi

[Tzeentch]

I've addressed this - what SR calls "Commercial Explosives" should be called "Low Explosives". Easily and neatly deals with the problem.

I haven't looked at them (meaning, the standard explosives) closely, but the grenade damage is the real issue. The ridiculous pipsqueak power of the commercial explosives just lampshades it (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)

[Umidori]

The damage is fine. It's on par with the damage from a well placed shotgun or sniper round, and it's less than the damage of assault cannons.

Grenades also require investment in a separate weapon skill (either Throwing Weapons or Heavy Weapons for a launcher), they suffer from scatter, they don't get extra DV from net hits, they have damage falloff with range, and they can be thrown back. The AOE damage is their greatest strength, really, but ultimately that power could be offset entirely by appropriate costs and availabilities.

Grenades aren't your everyday self defense tools. They're the tools of soldiers, and milspec gear should be effective. Assault cannons, high grade shotties or sniper rifles, and things like rockets, mortars, and missiles are all very deadly. Grenades ought to be too. Likewise, getting a hold of things this deadly should be expensive and difficult, and getting caught with them should be bad news bears. There's nothing wrong with grenade damage, and everything wrong with their price and abundance.

~Umi