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Slide
I've seen a couple of complaints about how over powered air burst grenades are. This is the tech of today.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GQBYXzXLsFo
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0d-n7i7hsKA
Slide
wanted to add this one too.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Hctyc6THbcE
Umidori
Wow that first video was bad. I lost my drek at the Counter-Strike clips being used with complete seriousness. The other two aren't quite as heinous, but are still garbage.

The XM25 never fails to catch the attention of "future weapons" fans, but the military wasn't pleased with its performance compared to conventional 40mm grenade launchers, and they stopped supporting or even considering it.

That said, SR5 already adjusted the "balance" of air-burst grenades. An Airburst Link requires a Wireless connection to function at all, making it a prime hacking target, and unlike the instant detonation (after scatter) of SR4, it now requires the user to take a Change Wireless Device Mode action, which is either a Free Action that can be taken when firing the grenade if you're using a DNI link, or is a Simple Action that can be taken manually on your next Action Phase or later.

~Umi
Shinobi Killfist
And if this wasn't a game I might give a crap about what grenades did in real life. Instant inescapable death is the SR5 grenade and quite frankly that isn't fun. I'll also point out that survival rates of grenades are actually decent, so instant inescapable death does not model that very well.
Slide
ok I won't argue about the quality of videos, they are pretty obviously propaganda bits biggrin.gif

However the loss of fun of grenades can also be said of sniper riffles, car crashes, and anything else the GM springs on players with little to no warning. It comes down to making sure that the GM understands the power of the things he has and uses them to properly motivate players.
Smash
How about something like this.

When firing a grenade you are still firing it at an NPC, not just a 'space'. Pick one of the NPCs you wish to hit with the grenade. Make the opposed heavy weapon vs evasion roll. Apply all modifiers as if you were shooting directly at the NPC (range, visibility, positional from the position of the shooter; Cover based on whether the target has cover from the explosion's point of origin). Add an additional -1 to hit for every meter the target is away from the point of detonation (clipping a moving target with the edge of an explosion should be harder than dropping it at the target's feet). Apply blind fire rules for lobbing grenades to points behind cover you can't see.

If there are no successes the grenade scatters as per the scatter rules. re-roll any scatter that puts the original target at increased risk (they were successful at dodging afterall).
Lynchmob
The only reason weapons like this don't see more action down range is because of poor budget decisions. I'm not going to dive into the rules debates surrounding grenades but in real life a grenade is much much deadlier than a pistol or assault rifle. A MK 19 straight up owns small craft. So do 50 cals but it takes a few more rounds. (Check out what Mark V boats pack if you want to drool over some firepower) Stopping a small boat with assault rifles is almost impossible and if somebody tried to use a 9 mil they'd probably get yelled at for wasting ammo. In Shadowrun terms I would get kind of ticked as a player if on site security was tossing and firing off grenades every encounter but if a HTR team rolled in at least one of those guys is going to have a launcher. I understand rule of cool but I always get a little confused when I hear people complaining that fists don't do enough damage and next-gen high explosives do too much.

EDIT: Didn't see all the replies.

Yeah grenades in an open environment don't insta gib people and the issues with those launchers were mostly that the munitions were too small and in real combat conditions they didn't perform quite like those little show off buy my weapon demos in the clips. Grenades in a closed environment would be deadlier but that brings up the whole argument about Corps destroying their own property. Do they ever reference a size for the launchers in SR? 40mm, 20mm, some new class? Cause a 40mm is no joke but way overkill for an underbarrel.
Slide
Well the M203 is a single shot 40 MM that is for M-16s and variants. I'd assume that for any of the AR grenade launchers are 40 MM.
Lynchmob
A 203 is single shot though, a 6 shot clip fed 40mm underbarrel would be huge. I'm writing it off for next gen tech and all but it just furthers the argument for how deadly grenades should be in SR.
Slide
oh crap your right, that is 6 in a clip. yeah probably nothing bigger than like a 16 or 20 MM then. even that's freaking huge.
Tzeentch
Probably a preloaded barrel.
Voran
There's that Ml-6 pistol that doesn't seem much bigger than a revolver/hvy pistol with 6 'minigrenades' which do dmg equal to regular grenades.
Tymeaus Jalynsfein
QUOTE (Voran @ Aug 9 2013, 04:10 PM) *
There's that Ml-6 pistol that doesn't seem much bigger than a revolver/hvy pistol with 6 'minigrenades' which do dmg equal to regular grenades.


Mini-grenades obviously use higher grade explosives to attain the explosive force of a normal grenade.
kzt
One XM-25 had a potentially disastrous malfunction during training caused them all to be withdrawn from service in March while they investigated and planned how to fit it. My impression was they were considered fairly successful in actual service until that point.
Umidori
A single malfunction is never the sole cause of an entire weapon withdrawal.

The Army may not always do they right, but they do things thoroughly. The malfunction in question was simply the most high profile problem - I guarantee they had reams and reams of reports on other problems, both mechanical, logistical, economical, and practical. At the end of day, if the Army says no to something, they've done their homework on it.

~Umi
Voran
QUOTE (kzt @ Aug 9 2013, 08:59 PM) *
One XM-25 had a potentially disastrous malfunction during training caused them all to be withdrawn from service in March while they investigated and planned how to fit it. My impression was they were considered fairly successful in actual service until that point.

....

results of a ....run?
kzt
QUOTE (Umidori @ Aug 9 2013, 07:15 PM) *
A single malfunction is never the sole cause of an entire weapon withdrawal.

Given that there were only 12 of the weapons in Afghanistan, how many kabooms would you think it would take to suggest there was a major problem? They had a propellant charge for a round ignited outside the breech due to a double feed, resulting in destruction of the weapon and minor injuries. This was the second such incident (other was in the US). Neither resulted in the high explosive in the ammo functioning, which would have killed everyone within 5 meters or so. The fact that they twice had the weapon kaboom after a fairly common malfunction is a pretty huge sign that there is a big issue with the ammo design or the feed system.
Umidori
Uh. Okay. I thought you were bringing up the malfunction as a way of saying "They were working fine, but one small glitch and they canned the whole project". I guess I misread your meaning.

~Umi
Draco18s
QUOTE (Smash @ Aug 8 2013, 10:18 PM) *
When firing a grenade you are still firing it at an NPC, not just a 'space'. Pick one of the NPCs you wish to hit with the grenade. Make the opposed heavy weapon vs evasion roll.


No. No no no no.
That is everything that is wrong about the SR4 rules.
There is a much better way of handling this, and that's to have everyone in the blast radius get a dodge roll. Every hit in that roll moves them 1 meter away from the zone as they choose.
Slide
I'm gonna have to agree with Draco on that. Well mostly.
Shinobi Killfist
QUOTE (Draco18s @ Aug 10 2013, 08:59 AM) *
No. No no no no.
That is everything that is wrong about the SR4 rules.
There is a much better way of handling this, and that's to have everyone in the blast radius get a dodge roll. Every hit in that roll moves them 1 meter away from the zone as they choose.


Well I'd just say it reduces the DV by 1 not move 1 meter because they have move limits. Explosions are not perfect spheres of death so just say people use cover, make themselves a smaller target, face less vital anatomy towards the explosion etc reducing the effect by 1dv per hit on the dodge test.
Draco18s
QUOTE (Shinobi Killfist @ Aug 10 2013, 10:46 AM) *
Well I'd just say it reduces the DV by 1 not move 1 meter because they have move limits. Explosions are not perfect spheres of death so just say people use cover, make themselves a smaller target, face less vital anatomy towards the explosion etc reducing the effect by 1dv per hit on the dodge test.


I'm perfectly happy with letting people violate movement rates when dodging for cover from grenades.
And the reason I said "1 meter" and not "-1 DV" is because of missiles. 1 meter is -4 DV. I would much rather see people going "GRENADE!" and diving out of the way than getting pulped.

I'd probably also add:
Ground counts as chunky salsa surface and drop all grenade DVs by half
Airburst grenades don't get chunky salsa from the ground
"drop prone: -1/2 DV" free action (doesn't work against air burst*).

*Net effect is that if you drop prone, you're taking half the DV listed in the book, one way or the other: against ground-grenades, you take 1/2 * (2 * (DV / 2)). Against airburst you take (DV / 2).
Slide
Actually i think SR5 gives a good precendent for a way to deal with gernades. One step down from full defense you can "duck for cover" at a -5. I think that would make up for the meter or two of movement that you get from your dodge roll.
kzt
Real world grenades are somewhat random, outside of the immediate vicinity of the burst (like a meter). Yeah, there is the 'burst radius' or the 'lethal radius', but those are really a probability function, typically defined as '50% of standing personel within x meters will be hit', but that doesn't mean any given individual really will be hit even if thay are close to the grenade when it goes off. Someone in the IDF talked about throwing a frag grenade in a small stone room that they though was occupied by guerrillas and instead was only occupied by an old woman, who was shaken up but uninjured other then being at least temporarily deafened. You can also get killed by larger fragments (like the fuze) at 20-50 meters.

The main advantage of the XM-25 was said to be the ability to set off a round at some fixed distance behind an obstacle. For example, 1 meter after it goes through a window, or a meter after it passes over a stone wall.

One obvious fix for overly lethal weapon is making them hard to get. For example, it's actually pretty are in the US for criminals to have machine guns and even rarer to have grenades. Converting a semi-auto weapon to a machine gun is a lot easier then building a reliable and safe to carry hand grenade. In addition, in the real world trying to buy a machine gun or grenades on the black market is pretty likely to get you a seller with a wire and 20 heavily armed cops covering him and the meet.
Tymeaus Jalynsfein
QUOTE (kzt @ Aug 10 2013, 01:41 PM) *
Real world grenades are somewhat random, outside of the immediate vicinity of the burst (like a meter). Yeah, there is the 'burst radius' or the 'lethal radius', but those are really a probability function, typically defined as '50% of standing personel within x meters will be hit', but that doesn't mean any given individual really will be hit even if thay are close to the grenade when it goes off. Someone in the IDF talked about throwing a frag grenade in a small stone room that they though was occupied by guerrillas and instead was only occupied by an old woman, who was shaken up but uninjured other then being at least temporarily deafened. You can also get killed by larger fragments (like the fuze) at 20-50 meters.

The main advantage of the XM-25 was said to be the ability to set off a round at some fixed distance behind an obstacle. For example, 1 meter after it goes through a window, or a meter after it passes over a stone wall.

One obvious fix for overly lethal weapon is making them hard to get. For example, it's actually pretty are in the US for criminals to have machine guns and even rarer to have grenades. Converting a semi-auto weapon to a machine gun is a lot easier then building a reliable and safe to carry hand grenade.


Building a reliable hand grenade is really pretty easy, assuming you have the materials at hand. Built over a hundred of them in the 1st gulf war (broke down Demo Charges and packed them into a container with a small fuse). Used them for room clearing. They were a bit overkill (about 1 kilo of packed C4 into a discarded Grenade case, taped shut with Duct Tape and fused with a Blasting cap and short piece of timed fuse and igniter), but they sure packed a hell of a punch.

Of course, getting a reliable source of plastic explosives in the civilian world is a bit difficult, but everything else is easily obtained (or crafted), if you know the right sources. smile.gif
Umidori
QUOTE (kzt @ Aug 10 2013, 01:41 PM) *
One obvious fix for overly lethal weapon is making them hard to get. For example, it's actually pretty rare in the US for criminals to have machine guns and even rarer to have grenades. Converting a semi-auto weapon to a machine gun is a lot easier then building a reliable and safe to carry hand grenade.

There are plenty of military surplus hand-grenades floating around the world. I'm certain if organized crime wanted to get their hands on them, they could.

I think that grenades simply fail to appeal to most criminals - they're interested in money, not blood. Grenades not only are risky to use - they can be dropped or "scatter" back - but they also draw way more attention than they're worth. Any ordinary shootout will get the cops called on ya, but no one will hold it against the cops if the shooters get away before the police can respond. But add grenades to the mix? People will freak out, and the police will be under a lot more pressure to find the culprits, and consequently will look for them that much harder.

Now, Shadowrunners? Mercs who are happy to geek drekheads for money? Yeah, grenades are gonna be something they consider, because if you want to stun, wound, or frag a group of people quickly, there are few better tools than a grenade.

~Umi
kzt
Both blasting caps and plastic explosive are controlled. Plastic explosive is a lot more controlled, but you can't buy either of these at the hardware store. Making your own primary explosives is not a safe hobby, which is what you need to make caps or primers.
Tymeaus Jalynsfein
QUOTE (kzt @ Aug 10 2013, 01:14 PM) *
Both blasting caps and plastic explosive are controlled. Plastic explosive is a lot more controlled, but you can't buy either of these at the hardware store. Making your own primary explosives is not a safe hobby, which is what you need to make caps or primers.


Primers are not that difficult, but you really should be good at it. It is not a forgiving hobby. As for blasting caps, they are not so hard to get in some parts of America (I imagine the same is true worldwide), even if they are controlled substances. Guns are supposedly controlled substances, as are drugs, and look at the sheer proliferation of both of those in the criminal world. *shrug*
Tzeentch
The problem with SR5 grenades are so patently obvious I'm still shocked there's so much debate about it. A High explosive grenade does 16P and will still be doing 8P (SMG damage) at 4 meters. That's equivalent to (gulp!) over 9 KILOGRAMS of commercial explosives.

That sounds reasonable? And then you have Blasts in a Confined Space (p. 183) which is just pure insanity on the level of the Crash rules that somehow keeps getting repeated every edition.
Tymeaus Jalynsfein
QUOTE (Tzeentch @ Aug 10 2013, 01:23 PM) *
The problem with SR5 grenades are so patently obvious I'm still shocked there's so much debate about it. A High explosive grenade does 16P and will still be doing 8P (SMG damage) at 4 meters. That's equivalent to (gulp!) over 9 KILOGRAMS of commercial explosives.

That sounds reasonable? And then you have Blasts in a Confined Space (p. 183) which is just pure insanity on the level of the Crash rules that somehow keeps getting repeated every edition.


No arguments here... The problem is coming up with a viable set of rules for explosives, and then apply them consistently across the board, for commercial explosives, exotic explosives, and Devices such as Missiles, Rockets and Grenades. That is a monumental task, especially if you want people to play with those rules.
Umidori
The difference is that one is 9 kilograms of commercial explosives, and the other is a fragmentation grenade. The first kills you with a pressure wave, the second kills you with bits of shrapnel.

~Umi
Tymeaus Jalynsfein
QUOTE (Umidori @ Aug 10 2013, 01:38 PM) *
The difference is that one is 9 kilograms of commercial explosives, and the other is a fragmentation grenade. The first kills you with a pressure wave, the second kills you with bits of shrapnel.

~Umi


And yet I can guarantee that a Lethal Concussion Grenade (All about the pressure wave, after all) would NEVER weigh in at 9 Kilograms. There has always been a disconnect between the Damage a Grenade puts out and the equivalent amount of Explosives barely leaving you with a bruise, even when you hold it in your hand. Detonate either in your open palm, and the resulting damage is no where close to being equivalent. You could argue that the grenade is compressed in a rigid container, and this is true, but the weight of commercial explosives you need is still not proportionate (even if you could fist it, which would likely blow your hand off, but would be survivable - try that with a grenade in your palm), for the weight of the explosive and the damage output when they are compared.
Umidori
Arsenal attempted to make Demolitions useful, but it was still very convoluted, in part because real life explosives are themselves quite tricky.

Anyway, there were rules for tamped or contained explosives that upped the damage, so yeah, I think the whole "rigid container" aspect of a grenade would contribute to the damage.

There's also the matter of the strength of the explosives. Commercial Explosives are only Rating 5 - they're not very strong stuff, comparatively. This would be stuff like ANFO, which has an explosive velocity of 3,200 m/s. A "lethal concussion grenade" wouldn't be using something this weak - it'd be using a more powerful explosive, and consequently you wouldn't need nearly as much of it.

In contrast, a modern frag grenade contains High Explosives, specifically "Comp B", a mixture of RTX and TNT. This compound has an explosive velocity of 8,050 m/s, which is just under the explosive velocity of C-4, which clocks in at 8,092 m/s. Thus, if you wanted to compare SR values, you'd need to compare to the Plastic Explosives category, not the Commercial Explosives one. So with grenades, we're talking explosive ratings of 10, 15, 20, or 25 instead of merely 5.

Now, I'll admit, part of the problem is the usage of the term "Commercial Explosives", as there are a number of compounds which are used commercially that are actually more powerful than explosives like C-4, and which are technically High Explosives. The problem is one of abstracting rules from reality for playability, and also perhaps a lack of research into the matter.

In real life, the term "Commercial Explosives" includes both High Explosives (things that Detonate) and Low Explosives (things that Deflagrate). Now, would the rules better mirror reality if they split explosives along these lines? Yeah, they sure would. But maybe the devs felt that "Commercial Explosives" was a term that read simpler, that would be less confusing to people who aren't aware of the differences between High and Low explosives, or who may not even know how to pronounce "deflagrate". Of course what you call it doesn't matter, because the actual important factor is the mechanics - in this case a Low Explosive is anything with a low Explosive Rating like 5, and a High Explosive is anything with a rating in the upper range, like 20.

We can safely assume that a frag grenade in SR employs high rating High Explosives. We can even justify it with some in-world reason, like grenades in the Sixth World have evolved to use the highest power, highest rating, "Highest Explosive" compounds available. After all, they're a military device, intended to be used against full body Milspec Armor (which includes all the advancements of 60ish years of tech, like Dikoting) and even armored vehicles. And even putting aside practical concerns of combat effectiveness, with the advent of Desert Wars, there's the whole spectacle aspect too. You're gonna get better ratings on the trideo if the grenades explode like gorram truck bombs instead of just today's standard, piddling-in-comparison booms. So you cram the damn things with C-28 and watch the mayhem and the ratings soar.

~Umi
Tymeaus Jalynsfein
All very true, except that the grenades should then cost a LOT more than the 35-45 Nuyen they currently cost, don't you think? See, that is the issue. Obviously, they are not using the High End High Explosives, because they are costed way out of synch. Lets see - for SR4A...

Blasting Cap/Fuse (10 Nuyen)
Additional Wireless/Radio Detonator (40 Nuyen)
Casing (Lets cost that at an economical 10 Nuyen, which is so far out of whack that I likely do not really even have to point that one out)
1/2 Kilo of Explosives -
Commercial Explosives (Rating 3) - 100 Nuyen/Kilo (so 50 Nuyen)
Plastic Explosives (Rating 4-15) - Cost is Rating x100 Nuyen, So from 400 Nuyen/Kilo to 1500 Nuyen /Kilo (so anywhere from 200 to 750/Kilo)


So... Add 1, subtract 3, and carry the 9 and you get...

110 Nuyen/Grenade (Commercial Explosives)
all the way to 260 to 810 Nuyen/Grenade (Plastic Explosives)

and the grand Prize is that Grenades ONLY COST a peasly Amount of Nuyen:
Fragmentation: 35 Nuyen
High Explosive: 45 Nuyen


See the problem yet?
Umidori
Oh, no, I totally agree they need to cost more. It makes sense both from a balance point of view considering their damage, and an in-world point of view considering they're gorram military grenades.

I was only playing devil's advocate in arguing that their power isn't, strictly speaking, too high. I readily admit that their cost and availability is too low.

~Umi
Tzeentch
QUOTE (Umidori @ Aug 10 2013, 08:38 PM) *
The difference is that one is 9 kilograms of commercial explosives, and the other is a fragmentation grenade. The first kills you with a pressure wave, the second kills you with bits of shrapnel.

One is several kilograms of commercial high explosives. The other is a small high explosive grenade with maybe a few ounces of filler. (Fragmentation grenades are another level of crazy.) I chose that example precisely because mechanically they are the same as far as Power/meter and AP goes. Also, the Avail is in the same range (plastic explosives are 16F, the HE grenade is 11F).
Tymeaus Jalynsfein
QUOTE (Umidori @ Aug 10 2013, 02:41 PM) *
Oh, no, I totally agree they need to cost more. It makes sense both from a balance point of view considering their damage, and an in-world point of view considering they're gorram military grenades.

I was only playing devil's advocate in arguing that their power isn't, strictly speaking, too high. I readily admit that their cost and availability is too low.

~Umi


Ahhhh. Got you.. Then yes, it appears we are on the same page. smile.gif
Umidori
QUOTE (Tzeentch @ Aug 10 2013, 03:46 PM) *
One is several kilograms of commercial high explosives. The other is a small high explosive grenade with maybe a few ounces of filler. (Fragmentation grenades are another level of crazy.) I chose that example precisely because mechanically they are the same as far as Power/meter and AP goes. Also, the Avail is in the same range (plastic explosives are 16F, the HE grenade is 11F).

I've addressed this above - what SR calls "Commercial Explosives" should be called "Low Explosives". Easily and neatly deals with the problem.

~Umi
Tzeentch
QUOTE (Umidori @ Aug 10 2013, 09:49 PM) *
I've addressed this - what SR calls "Commercial Explosives" should be called "Low Explosives". Easily and neatly deals with the problem.

I haven't looked at them (meaning, the standard explosives) closely, but the grenade damage is the real issue. The ridiculous pipsqueak power of the commercial explosives just lampshades it smile.gif
Umidori
The damage is fine. It's on par with the damage from a well placed shotgun or sniper round, and it's less than the damage of assault cannons.

Grenades also require investment in a separate weapon skill (either Throwing Weapons or Heavy Weapons for a launcher), they suffer from scatter, they don't get extra DV from net hits, they have damage falloff with range, and they can be thrown back. The AOE damage is their greatest strength, really, but ultimately that power could be offset entirely by appropriate costs and availabilities.

Grenades aren't your everyday self defense tools. They're the tools of soldiers, and milspec gear should be effective. Assault cannons, high grade shotties or sniper rifles, and things like rockets, mortars, and missiles are all very deadly. Grenades ought to be too. Likewise, getting a hold of things this deadly should be expensive and difficult, and getting caught with them should be bad news bears. There's nothing wrong with grenade damage, and everything wrong with their price and abundance.

~Umi
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