Do mages have it too easy?, They get new spells awfully quickly... Options

[tisoz]

I thought a shaman could only set up his lodge in an environment appropriate to his totem. How many have jungle? 5%?

[Sphynx]

I suppose you could interpret it that way, but that's not how our groups have interpreted it. Page 163 of SR3 (BBB) reads like this:

[phelious fogg]

Mages grow faster with Karma, but they only advance in magic. So a mage with 6 spellcasting is pretty much always going ot have it. Granted they will be increasing in spells and such, but they wont be gaining skills or attributes. Skills and Attributes cost a ton, but Gear which is always needed costs money. While the mage is off spending karma on spells and initiation, the rest of the team should be buying toys to augment their performance.

As far as finding spell formual, remember that anything over force 3 is illegal, so its not like you can find a legit intructor for it.

Anyways, if you want to slow down a mage, give less karma. YOu talk about spending 30 karma when it might take 10 runs to get that karma, in which case you arent evolving that fast anyways. Yes you seem to evolve faster, but you would still be on par with everyone else.

Try playing in a game where the GM gives 1ky and 1 karma per mission

[Talia Invierno]

I nearly choked when I read your dice stats, Sphynx ;) I thought I was pushing it when I learned a Force 20 spell. (Don't ask how long that took.)

One hopes that no critters in the jungle decide that parts of the shamanic lodge are tasty ... or that the magician is. Given starting PCs in the priority system, average starting attributes for the magician will be lower by at least 3 total (6 if either a power or weapon focus is taken): therefore the magician's starting BD - that thing used to resist damage - will probably be lower on average than that of mundane PCs. (The magician's starting skills will be lower by 10/16 for the same reason.) Fewer initial points ... a lag which, if it to be made up, will cost that much more karma.

It's absolutely true that a magician has more options within which to spend karma. In an infinitely long game, the magician will be the most versatile PC. In a somewhat shorter game with a relatively strong sense of teamwork, a magician in a team is expected to spend that karma at least to some extent in ways that will benefit the team as a whole. Most likely, those ways will involve enhancing the magician's magic or spell repetoire ... which represents karma that will not be spent on making up the starting skill and attribute lag. How many people here have played in a campaign which has spanned more than five game-years?

I didn't specify the type of rebounding wrt mistreating spirits of various types. To some extent, that's for the GM to decide, based on interpretation of various sections of the sourcebooks. Of course, one could always choose not to min-max allies and other spirits, and thus never to improve allies to a point where they actually run a chance of going free. No freedom, no consequences, right?

Just one quick direct comparison:

Offensive grenade: 10S damage, 30 :nuyen:, too common, 96 hours
Powerball Force 10: 10S damage, 6S drain, 5000 :nuyen: , 10/72 hours

[RedmondLarry]

[Fortune]

[Cain]

[Talia Invierno]

[RedmondLarry]

[Glyph]

On the subject of mistreating spirits, I only remember a little snippet in one of the earlier magic books. It was in the shadowtalk, someone describing an incident where someone had a low-force elemental manifest in a room, then grounded a spell (fireball or manaball, some such) through it and blasted everyone in the room (this was when you could ground spells through astrally active objects onto the physical plane, which was removed in Third Edition). A listener got very indignant, and said that the mage who did that would have a lot of problems getting elementals to mind him in the future. As far as actual in-game repurcussions:

Elementals, Zombies, and Watcher Spirits: none. They are not even particularly intelligent. Now, if an elemental becomes a free spirit, it might remember if it was mistreated. Zombies who become free spirits seem to bear enmity to their summoner no matter how they were treated.

Nature Spirits and Spirits of the Elements: none. However, shamans always have to watch how the conduct themselves, because they can lose their abilities if they displease their Totem.

Loa Spirits: They are far less controlled than other spirits, and a voudoun who mistreats the Loa is likely to lose his magical abilities.

Ally Spirits: Even if they are kept too weak to break free, it is probably a good idea not to alienate them. They can probably do all kinds of subtle things to sabotage the plans of their master if they are mistreated.

[Person 404]

[Curugul]

[Greyfoxx]

Im not veteran, and this advice probably wont help but its the first thing that came to mind...


...EMP!!!

[Cain]

Curugul: It's hard to balance riggers unless you really want to go into the minutae of the R3 rules, but Electronic Warfare can really ruin a rigger's day. Otherwise, just occasionally toss in situations where the Steel Lynx isn't as useful-- tight corridors, intelligent tactics, and so on. You can also use the Optempo and SOTA rules to keep them in check, over the long haul.

The thing I have the most trouble with is balancing the Great Dragon ATGM. With a relatively low availiability and low cost, plus an extreme effect, it makes mincemeat out of nearly everything. However, if you take it out, then riggers lose some of their ability to actually hurt an armored vehicle. Riggers *should* be equipped for vehicle-to-vehicle combat, but it's when the ATGM goes after soft targets that things get nutty.

But seriously, I don't see mages as any worse than a rigger with an Ares Guardian or a Strato-9. Equip either of them with a few ATGM's, and they're a match for a combat troll on kamikaze.

[Kurukami]

[TheScamp]

[motorfirebox]

on the other hand, the powerball does 10S over its entire area of effect, whereas the grenade loses a point of power every meter or two. then, the grenade has a larger area of effect than most powerballs. but the powerball likely stages better, given that most spellcasters have 6+ dice for casting.

it's a tradeoff. i wouldn't define either as being "more powerful", only "more (or less) effective, given the current circumstances".

[TheScamp]

True, most people don't put a whole lot into Throwing weapons, but even with a skill of 4, you're still tossing 8 dice.

[edit]
There's also the decent possibility that the grenade is at least going to score a Medium wound. The spell is an all or nothing deal.
[/edit]

[Talia Invierno]

[Curugul]

[Talia Invierno]

And yet you never manage to explain why.

[Glyph]

I'll take this one... :D

They may have a similar base damage, but the similarities between a manabolt and a heavy pistol end there. For one thing, the guy with the pistol can't decide "This is an all-or-nothing situation where I have to get past this guy to escape. I'd better shoot my gun at 9D instead of 9M." Also, the mechanics are completely different. The mage casting the manabolt can use sorcery and Spell Pool dice, while the target only has Willpower to resist. The mage's TN is the target's Willpower, while the target resists a TN of 9. So, unless that target is an albino gnome otaku with the Magic Resistance: 4 Edge, I would say the odds tend to favor the mage. It gets even worse when you add Totem bonuses and foci to the mix. Ranged combat, by contrast, is more even. It is pistols skill versus Body, with both sides able to use Combat Pool, and with all of the targetting modifiers and the likelihood of the target wearing ballistic armor, the Target Numbers will be more even for both sides, too.

However, a heavy pistol can usually kill an albino gnome otaku with the Magic Resistance: 4 Edge fairly easily. ;)

[TheScamp]

Then again, everyone and their mom has a heavy pistol. The wielder of a Force 9 manabolt is going to be slightly easier to find afterwards.

[Talia Invierno]

I did misprice the spell formula - should have been 100 :nuyen: per Force level (for a maximum M Force spell) instead of 500 :nuyen: per level (for a maximum S Force spell). So while I'd already allowed for the person with the gun not being able to shoot above 9M and changed most of the spell accordingly, I forgot to do the same for the cost of the formula. Sorry about that.

But you think the odds favour the mage, against someone with a 5 or 6 WL, an equivalent level of Pistol skill and Combat pool, and appropriately heightened reflexes? Try it! Even with regular ammunition!

Edit (to finish the post):

Certainly some of the mechanics are different. Some, also, can be reasonably compared: Pistol / Sorcery skills; Combat / Spell pools. Totem bonus? Specialisation. Centring or elemental to reduce TN? Smartlink. The signature and other distinctiveness has already been (indirectly) noted. I used a 9 Force for straight comparison, but it isn't really: certainly seems as though the vast majority of Dumpshockers use a much lower Force level and rely on Sorcery skill to make up the difference. WL may usually be lower than BD, but that practice also makes for a much lower number for the target to resist against.

I would add that unlike spellcasting, shooting a firearm is a simple action: two actions per action phase to the mage's one.

[Fortune]