Projectile Lynchpins, or Guns Shooting Bullets Shooting Fire Options

[Flaser]

Gene Starwind approves.

Magus Killer, Emiya Kiritsugu seconds. Nothing sweeter than killing an uppity, holier than though mage with a weapon they thought can't touch them.

All in all I don't think magical bullets should be banned, you just need some specific drawbacks to them that make 'em your "extra silver special" for those "hard nights" instead SOP.

[Slide]

Umi there is nothing about what you wrote that I don't like. I'm going to be running around with throwing knives of levitate (IMG:style_emoticons/default/biggrin.gif)

[HugeC]

I can only answer one of those questions definitively!

No, you cannot load the bullets into someone else's gun. For some reason, only the person who creates a preparation can use it. (At least I think that's the case, I have to rush out the door and can't check my book!)

~Umi

Contact triggers go off when they contact a living being. The circumstances of this contact are irrelevant, so if someone else picks up your revolver loaded with magic bullets, they work the same for them as they would for you. If you are using Command triggers, then yeah, only the creator can set them off.

[shinryu]

if by some dipshit ruling magic arrowheads go away (kinda on the fence with magic bullets, honestly), may i suggest the obvious alternative for contact preparations?

ping-pong ball guns.

ping-pong ball small, workable with hands? check. you can probably get 'em in some minimally processed magic friendly composition. write your angry curse on them and pop pop your death touches away. can't argue these get destroyed on impact, can you?

too much object resistance in ping pong balls? only one solution then. potato gun.

please don't make me trade my crossbow or my revolver for a potato gun, catalyst. seriously, please don't.

[RHat]

First, that f'ing sucks if true. Second, that also goes against the example in the book on p.305, where the example character makes a preparation out of a glass sphere (presumably to be thrown, like a grenade).

I believe the idea is that your preparation is damaged, and thus rendered useless, before it reaches the target. A line of reasoning that should still leave arrowheads open for this use...

[Flaser]

I believe the idea is that your preparation is damaged, and thus rendered useless, before it reaches the target. A line of reasoning that should still leave arrowheads open for this use...

Just use rounds with a penetrator core... this makes creating magic bullets even more complicated, but that might not be such a bad thing in this case.

[shinryu]

subsonic bullets might be another option; i'm not sure how much they deform on impact if the material is hard enough, but there's a reasonable chance that they could remain sufficiently intact. this would limit you to pistols for the most part, of course.

the problem i'm worried about with arrowheads is people claiming that just combining an arrowhead and an arrow makes a new, composite object such that the entire arrow is now the preparation. this is dumb, but until catalyst officially rules i can't help but worry that these people are technically correct in catalyst's eyes. that would be bad.

oh, and then there's the problem of what constitutes "contact", and supposedly not being able to set command preparations off the same initiative pass on which you throw or shoot them at someone since that's two "attack actions." of course, you could have someone else or a drone do it or do it with any other kind of preparation and that's fine, but it's also stupid and screws up some otherwise interesting concepts. i want to be a ninja master alchemist, goddammit.

[Tymeaus Jalynsfe...]

subsonic bullets might be another option; i'm not sure how much they deform on impact if the material is hard enough, but there's a reasonable chance that they could remain sufficiently intact. this would limit you to pistols for the most part, of course.

the problem i'm worried about with arrowheads is people claiming that just combining an arrowhead and an arrow makes a new, composite object such that the entire arrow is now the preparation. this is dumb, but until catalyst officially rules i can't help but worry that these people are technically correct in catalyst's eyes. that would be bad.

oh, and then there's the problem of what constitutes "contact", and supposedly not being able to set command preparations off the same initiative pass on which you throw or shoot them at someone since that's two "attack actions." of course, you could have someone else or a drone do it or do it with any other kind of preparation and that's fine, but it's also stupid and screws up some otherwise interesting concepts. i want to be a ninja master alchemist, goddammit.

I play a Oni Ninja Alchemist... He uses Magical Compounds. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/cool.gif)

[Umidori]

Gene Starwind approves.

Praise of the highest order.

Now we just need to have an Adventure that takes place on a hot springs planet.

~Umi

[Vicar]

What happens when I fire a burst? Does that mean that they get hit with 3 spells? How about Full Auto - would it be 10 spells?

I'd have to say no to both of these, and the only reason I do is because of the way Shadowrun handles bursts, which isn't that the opponent gets hit with three bullets, but rather that there's a greater chance to be hit with one bullet (by decreasing his defense): "With more shots going downrange they increase the chance that a bullet will hit." p.179

I'm not sure I agree with those rules, but they do make the game a lot faster to play.

[Umidori]

Yeah, I kinda agree with Vicar, at least concerning SR5. Anchored Spells in SR4 would be trickier to figure out, but I never actually managed to pull that character concept off.

~Umi

[Mäx]

Well the tricky question comes in if those 10 bullets have fireball with command trigger, are you or are you not allowed to trigger them all on your next turn (IMG:style_emoticons/default/cool.gif)

[Vicar]

Well the tricky question comes in if those 10 bullets have fireball with command trigger, are you or are you not allowed to trigger them all on your next turn (IMG:style_emoticons/default/cool.gif)

Can't do it. First, it takes a simple action to trigger, so at the most 2 per turn. Second, you need line of sight to the preparation, which by the time of "next turn" the bullets themselves are away to hell and gone. "But I shoot them into the ceiling above his head." Fine. But you still can't see them.

Plus it probably constitutes an attack, in which case you can only trigger 1 per turn. And not on the same turn that you shoot.

[The Overlord]

While I would be hesitant to allow the use of alchemy on bullets given their size, bolts and arrows would be just fine. I already have built a mystic adept archer who uses magic arrows.

[Repulse]

How about using a command trigger on the gel from gel packs used in an Ares S-III Super Squirt, when they hit the target, the gel isnt "destroyed" and it is still in LoS, not to mention already delivering its payload, etc.

[shinryu]

i had thought along these lines too, but there are two potential "official" problems with this:

1) the ridiculous "you can't activate a preparation the same round you shoot it" crap, if that becomes official.

2) defining what a lynchpin is and what destroyed means. if the lynchpin is the gel pack, i can see how someone might argue it is "destroyed" on impact, plus object resistance of god knows what to enchant the fucker in the first place. on the other hand, if you can make a quasi-liquid preparation (i'm thinking a thick gooey paste here) out of leaves and twigs or whatever, enchant that and load it in a gel pack, now we're in business. i don't see anything in the rules preventing making preparations out of doughy substances, as it says you can "work materials into the lynchpin" as part of the ritual. sounds a lot like a mortar and pestle to me.

as far as burst fire, i think the limiting factor for that is that you'd have to enchant all the bullets, which is a lot of time and potentially risk with powerful spells. otherwise, i think the gm would be well within his rights to roll randomly and see if it was actually the lynchpin that hit the target or not. i think you could also argue that command spells wouldn't work in a gun, as i doubt even mages have the reflexes to trigger the spell right as the bullet hits. contact spells? well, i mean, if the lynchpin is the bullet then it's technically intact on "contact", so i think that might fly. also, come on, magic revolver gunslinger alchemist? that's so perfect...

tymeaus:
i'm curious how you're rolling with the ninja alchemist. my schtick was going to be punch on shuriken, since you can dial up a force 7 or 8 punch spell for cheap and have a good chance of going through armor/spirits and similar. if that "can't activate on same phase" thing is true, the whole idea is a lot less attractive to me.

[Skynet]

i had thought along these lines too, but there are two potential "official" problems with this:

1) the ridiculous "you can't activate a preparation the same round you shoot it" crap, if that becomes official.

2) defining what a lynchpin is and what destroyed means. if the lynchpin is the gel pack, i can see how someone might argue it is "destroyed" on impact, plus object resistance of god knows what to enchant the fucker in the first place. on the other hand, if you can make a quasi-liquid preparation (i'm thinking a thick gooey paste here) out of leaves and twigs or whatever, enchant that and load it in a gel pack, now we're in business. i don't see anything in the rules preventing making preparations out of doughy substances, as it says you can "work materials into the lynchpin" as part of the ritual. sounds a lot like a mortar and pestle to me.

as far as burst fire, i think the limiting factor for that is that you'd have to enchant all the bullets, which is a lot of time and potentially risk with powerful spells. otherwise, i think the gm would be well within his rights to roll randomly and see if it was actually the lynchpin that hit the target or not. i think you could also argue that command spells wouldn't work in a gun, as i doubt even mages have the reflexes to trigger the spell right as the bullet hits. contact spells? well, i mean, if the lynchpin is the bullet then it's technically intact on "contact", so i think that might fly. also, come on, magic revolver gunslinger alchemist? that's so perfect...

tymeaus:
i'm curious how you're rolling with the ninja alchemist. my schtick was going to be punch on shuriken, since you can dial up a force 7 or 8 punch spell for cheap and have a good chance of going through armor/spirits and similar. if that "can't activate on same phase" thing is true, the whole idea is a lot less attractive to me.

Since that is already the second time it has come up: Object resistance is irrelevant for alchemical preparations (explicitly stated so even). (The lynchpin isn't enchanted, it just acts as the anchor, similar to setting up a ward.)

[shinryu]

oh, hot happy damn, this is what i get for taking the word of "demo team members" and not reading the actual passage. screw you, official forums! carbon steel arrowheads with punch spells all day for you bitches!

and hey, you know what? if i can't activate spells on the same IP, don't care now! stick and shock! electrocution first pass, spell damage on the second pass. can't say the "lynchpin was destroyed" when it's deployed and stuck to the target in an intact fashion. i hate stick and shock with a passion. but this would be worth it if i had to do it that way.

[Sendaz]

So S&S&S (Stick & Shock & Spell) ? (IMG:style_emoticons/default/biggrin.gif)

[shinryu]

yeah, and a nasty trick with the right spell.

figure you pop these into a super warhawk and land 7S AP -5 on hit. then light off the force 7 punch spell for another 8-10S damage (assuming a couple of hits on the enchanting test giving you a pool of around 9-10 for the spell test). that's enough to knock a lot of things on their asses, including magical nasties.

you could also give these to the team sniper or a drone and make a coordinated attack: he hits with say a desert strike for 11S -5, then the stun damage hits almost simultaneously as you set off the spell. zzzt. good night, sweet spirit. i'm sure that area effect spells could be a good time with these, it's just a bit nasty in terms of drain after a while. a stunball though... yeah, could work. crap, these make good dual-purpose AP/AV rounds too with a lightning bolt added in. depending on the rulings with contact triggers, this could work with them too...

SSS, i like it. makes me feel all devil may cry.

also, dart rifle rounds. how someone could argue those are "destroyed" on impact would possibly be a useful cognitive battery test for head injury or mental retardation. i'd rather roll SSS, but i'm preparing my anus for the errata being a clusterfuck.

[Shinobi Killfist]

While I would be hesitant to allow the use of alchemy on bullets given their size, bolts and arrows would be just fine. I already have built a mystic adept archer who uses magic arrows.

Given how deadly bows and throwing weapons are its not really a balance change to stop guns from working just a GM doesn't like it change. Which is fine whether it comes from your or catalyst but if I allow prepared arrows I'll allow prepared bullets of pure love.

[Shinobi Killfist]

Why? The Problem is that a Contact trigger will set off when you load the round into its magazine, when the round is chambered, and when it is immediately fired and it contacts the barrel (all those have actual contact in them, and, if aura contact is mandatory, loading the round either into the gun or the magazine counts as aura contact). So, no, I do not see this as viable. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/wobble.gif)

It depend son how you read next living person. Next living person after the preparation is complete, or next person who is not the mage since the mage is the same person not the next one. Given that I suspect you are supposed to make it then throw or place it somewhere I suspect next means next person after the mage as the mage is still the same person touching it not the next one.

[shinryu]

It depend son how you read next living person. Next living person after the preparation is complete, or next person who is not the mage since the mage is the same person not the next one. Given that I suspect you are supposed to make it then throw or place it somewhere I suspect next means next person after the mage as the mage is still the same person touching it not the next one.

yeah, this also needs clarification. if your interpretation is correct then there's no problem with setting off your own preparations, and it's not really a problem to have command spells inaccessible on the same pass as you throw the item since you don't have to worry about the thing going off in your hand. i assume you could make it go off if you wanted to and were touching it, of course.

in other news: excellent sig.

also, the think tank at the official forums is claiming the loss of atoms from a preparation would be sufficient to disrupt the lynchpin for a bullet. more specifically, they said "scratches from the barrel", which implies that basically you would need to never, ever touch a preparation or it would be disrupted. splinter came off your magic wand? fuck you, gandalf, preparation is ruined. pretty sure if your rounds are being scratched that badly you have a safety problem. also, teflon.

so yeah. fuck that place, seriously.

[Tymeaus Jalynsfe...]

@ Tymeaus: I'm curious how you're rolling with the ninja alchemist. My schtick was going to be punch on shuriken, since you can dial up a force 7 or 8 punch spell for cheap and have a good chance of going through armor/spirits and similar. If that "can't activate on same phase" thing is true, the whole idea is a lot less attractive to me.

Well, it is SR4A, so the only real option is Magical Compounds, which are NOT spells in physical form. They are Magical Abilities in Physical form, which require preparation and only retain a few weeks useability. For "Punch," he used Throwing Mastery, custom Shurikens, and ther innate badassness of being an Oni who could change his look (all the Adept "Change Appearance" Abilities, including Man of 1000 Faces), so no one really suspected him. Really was not much he could not hurt, given a bit of time and planning.

[Tymeaus Jalynsfe...]

It depend son how you read next living person. Next living person after the preparation is complete, or next person who is not the mage since the mage is the same person not the next one. Given that I suspect you are supposed to make it then throw or place it somewhere I suspect next means next person after the mage as the mage is still the same person touching it not the next one.

Indeed, it does matter. It desperately needs clarification.