Under what circumstances are Qi Foci worthwhile? Options

[Isath]

Yeah, needs some work. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/nyahnyah.gif)

Or maybe you need some sleep (IMG:style_emoticons/default/wink.gif)

[Shemhazai]

Are melee weapons with a bunch of extra dice really that bad compared to guns? I was thinking about one character concept of powerful katana focus, high blades (swords), high agility, increased attribute (agility) or improved physical attribute, improved ability (blades), enhanced accuracy (blades), critical strike (blades). That would be a lot of dice on a weapon with accuracy of 8 after the enhanced accuracy power. Str + 4... Would a troll be worthwhile. Good reach and all.

I guess your enemies would pick you off from a distance.

[Jaid]

nothing wrong with making a melee specialist. just so long as you remember that you don't have to be completely and utterly incompetent in every other area to be a specialist.

[FuelDrop]

Are melee weapons with a bunch of extra dice really that bad compared to guns? I was thinking about one character concept of powerful katana focus, high blades (swords), high agility, increased attribute (agility) or improved physical attribute, improved ability (blades), enhanced accuracy (blades), critical strike (blades). That would be a lot of dice on a weapon with accuracy of 8 after the enhanced accuracy power. Str + 4... Would a troll be worthwhile. Good reach and all.

I guess your enemies would pick you off from a distance.

Actually, considering that many shadowruns take place inside a building of some description melee focus isn't necessarily crippling. What IS crippling about that build is that there are no non-lethal options in the blades group, which is very limiting if you put all your points there.

Clubs is less powerful but more versatile, with high concealability, good damage and solid accuracy available in various weapons. Also, with but a single exception they are all completely legal without a license, with the humble club dealing damage that's marginally comparable to a katana at lower skill levels (the low accuracy hurts it a lot, and it lacks any AP, but on the other hand when you walk into a room it's full of potential clubs. Not many rooms I've ever been in have many options for improvised Katanas. Why smuggle a weapon in if you can just pick something up when you get there for similar results?)

As to Qi foci... the only edge augmentation has over them is availability. Increasing attributes via Qi focus is cheap compared to the bioware equivalent in nuyen, and costs karma (a renewable resource) vs Essence (a finite resource). It also can be upgraded more effectively: raising increased attribute 2 to 3 via a focus costs the same as raising it from 0 to 1, while the augmented equivalent requires you to pull out the old stuff, sell it at a fraction of its purchase price, then buy the new 'ware at full price.
To be fair, there are several limitations on Qi Foci that are not there for augmentations: number 1 is the limit on how many you can have. While technically infinite, the cost of increasing this limit is non-trivial and increases exponentially. Still, an augmented character has to deal with essence, which is most definitely a finite resource. Sure, you can squeeze a lot out of it by throwing cash at it but in the end you can't go past deltaware grade no matter how many millions you have to throw.
Number 2 is focus Addiction. This one kind of sucks, and though there is augmentation addiction it's not been given any rules yet so it's not comparable. If used carefully, this isn't an issue (according to some readings, anyway) and if it's risk addiction or die you can power up a bunch of your foci at once. When you use Qi foci for situational utility powers (EG traceless walk, voice control, wall running, light body, rapid healing) and just switch to whatever one you need at the time then Qi foci are potentially very potent with low risks of addiction.

[Dolanar]

no, but since a weapon Focus can only be a melee weapon, unless you actually invest many skill points into a melee skill, you're better off using a gun.

on a quick inspection of the system, to be an effective Adept blademaster you need a high strength, high agility, Solid skill in one or more melee skills.

Blades 6/8+Agi 6+Weapon Focus 4+Adept Power 3 puts you at 21 dice to strike your target, you hit, get about 5 successes (assuming we buy hits), we'll assume 5 strength, meaning you are doing 5+3+5 or 13p total damage with your Weapon Focus Katana.

[Isath]

What IS crippling about that build is that there are no non-lethal options in the blades group, which is very limiting if you put all your points there.

Which is sort of funny, odd even. First off, I really do not see, how one can learn to wield a sword and at the same time, be as clueless about a sophisticated club as the next guy. Sure, there are skill groups, but they are more of an difficult to achieve exeption. Also I wonder... if I wield a bo-ken (which would be a non-lethal option)... would that be a club or a sword (even though a wooden one). While it sort of is a club, I do not see any argument, why a swordsman would have any trouble wielding it.

[Slide]

Which is sort of funny, odd even. First off, I really do not see, how one can learn to wield a sword and at the same time, be as clueless about a sophisticated club as the next guy. Sure, there are skill groups, but they are more of an difficult to achieve exeption. Also I wonder... if I wield a bo-ken (which would be a non-lethal option)... would that be a club or a sword (even though a wooden one). While it sort of is a club, I do not see any argument, why a swordsman would have any trouble wielding it.

And thats why I liked the SR3 skill/default system.

[quentra]

You could always just houserule all the melee skills into one. Personally, I think that's probably the best way to go about it.

[Sendaz]

Or just lift a page from 3rd edition and say if you have clubs but not sword you could wield a sword at 1/2 the club rating plus attribute -1. I would still apply a -1 to att as you are not fully accustomed to using it exactly this way so can not apply all the stat.

Course the flip side of this coin is you will then have folk just focusing on one or two weapons skills to high levels and using that as their default for other weapons.

[Slide]

Or just lift a page from 3rd edition and say if you have clubs but not sword you could wield a sword at 1/2 the club rating plus attribute -1. I would still apply a -1 to att as you are not fully accustomed to using it exactly this way so can not apply all the stat.

Course the flip side of this coin is you will then have folk just focusing on one or two weapons skills to high levels and using that as their default for other weapons.

true, but you can also put some sort of hard cap on how many dice you can get from defaulting like that.... maybe something like 1/2 the linked stat?

[Isath]

Which would be fine by me... Fighting with a sword is closer to fighting with an axe or club, then it is to fighting with a knife.
The real difference by skill would be, armed, unarmed and exotic weapon I guess.
Although one could start to collect flexible weapons, like whips and nunchucks in one skill. Those really are different.

I could also live with "Clubs" relating to heavy clubs alone and adding strength instead of agility.

...whatever, basing two skills about the difference between sharp and blunt trauma, does not make all that much sense, when the way the weapons are used is often very similar, if not the same.

[HugeC]

Can qi foci push you beyond the normal limits of a power? For example, if I have Mystic Armor 6 and Magic 6, can a Force 4 qi focus get me to Mystic Armor 8? Clearly, if no such rank exists (e.g. Improved Reflexes 4) it doesn't work. I guess my gut tells me no, since I don't see any exception to that rule mentioned in the rules for qi foci.

[Slide]

Can qi foci push you beyond the normal limits of a power? For example, if I have Mystic Armor 6 and Magic 6, can a Force 4 qi focus get me to Mystic Armor 8? Clearly, if no such rank exists (e.g. Improved Reflexes 4) it doesn't work. I guess my gut tells me no, since I don't see any exception to that rule mentioned in the rules for qi foci.

the limit is your magic attribute so i'm gonna go with no on that.

[Falconer]

Someone on the other board said that using Attribute Boost level 1 in a level 1 Qi Focus is a pretty good idea, and I'm not sure he's wrong. Assuming 6 magic, 7 die will average 2 hits (assuming TN 5? It doesn't say) which is very efficient power use (oh and you have to resist 1s drain...ouch). Of course, at .25PP per level it's not hard to fit this into your build without paying for a foci anyway.

Disagree with this Samoth...

The big advantage of attribute boost is it's cheap and you really only need/want 1 rank in it to get maximum effect.

The problem with a qi focus is that it's easily deactivated now... especially when you're not astral capable. If you activate it, as a focus it stands out on the astral and is easily spotted. With magic addiction rules as draconian as they are now... only 'magic' in active foci gets used up real fast.


The biggest drawback though is action economy. It's a simple action to activate the focus, then another simple action to activate the power. Since it is so cheap it's hard to see why you wouldn't try to fit it into your normal distro of innate powers. Simple action activate agility boost, simple action quickdraw & fire pistol with the now boosted agility. That instant availability is key.

[Samoth]

Which is sort of funny, odd even. First off, I really do not see, how one can learn to wield a sword and at the same time, be as clueless about a sophisticated club as the next guy. Sure, there are skill groups, but they are more of an difficult to achieve exeption. Also I wonder... if I wield a bo-ken (which would be a non-lethal option)... would that be a club or a sword (even though a wooden one). While it sort of is a club, I do not see any argument, why a swordsman would have any trouble wielding it.

Kind of like how you can be a master of Pistols with a 6 rating but have no clue how to operate a Narcoject Pistol.

[FuelDrop]

Kind of like how you can be a master of Pistols with a 6 rating but have no clue how to operate a Narcoject Pistol.

Which end do the darts go in? *holds up knife*