 Melee and lots of init passes...bad? |
 Apr 30 2004, 04:36 AM
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#1
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Moving Target  Group: Members Posts: 386 Joined: 2-January 04 From: California Protectorate Member No.: 5,949  |
A bit ago, I realized something about the melee system that bothered me.
If you have a very high init and you use guns, you can shoot at someone every init pass you get. You may use up all your combat dice, but you still have opportunity to do some serious damage. Now, pretend that you have high init, and you're in melee. You get your extra passes..and the opponent still gets to oppose it with his melee dice. Shouldn't there be some bonus for being much, much faster to you opponent? I mean, if he actually for some reason has more melee dice than you , you would be the one disadvantaged by attacking continuously. If you go ranged, then you could just keep shooting with no real worries. Did I miss something here? |
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Apr 30 2004, 04:39 AM
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#2
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Running Target Group: Members Posts: 1,102 Joined: 23-March 04 From: The Grizzly Grunion, in a VIP room. Member No.: 6,191 |
This has been diiscussed, but i can't remember the result. I think there should be, but...
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Apr 30 2004, 04:42 AM
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#3
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Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 173 Joined: 4-March 03 Member No.: 4,196 |
This has been discussed *a lot* and examined from a few different perspectives. To address what you said: with canon rules, yes in the most extreme case someone with a huge initiative, but a skill of one, against someone with an initiative of one, but possessing a huge skill, will be killed on their own, taking damage on attacks they initiated themself. If you don't like this and you're looking for a house rule, just limit the number of counterattacks by an amount you deem appropriate.
Keep in mind characters with high initiative aren't moving faster, they're reacting faster (yeah, I know the line gets blurred). People have spent a lot of energy arguing over what martial arts are all about, thrown numbers relating to human reaction time at each other, and generally bitched a lot. Don't be surprised if you get a lot of sarcastic and generally useless responses to your question.
I personally don't see what kind of additional advantage "fast" characters are supposed to get since ties go to the attacker. |
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Apr 30 2004, 04:47 AM
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#4
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Runner Group: Members Posts: 2,901 Joined: 19-June 03 Member No.: 4,775 |
Personally, I was looking at this recently and I was wondering if giving a TN bonus of the difference in number of combat phases between the two combatants to the faster combatant (and a penalty to the attacker along the same lines) might fix things, or at least go some way to fixing it. I haven't look at any numbers enough to judge, though. Any thoughts?
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Apr 30 2004, 04:54 AM
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#5
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Running Target Group: Members Posts: 1,102 Joined: 23-March 04 From: The Grizzly Grunion, in a VIP room. Member No.: 6,191 |
That's good... usually the difference in passes is only one or 2 so it's not too unbalanced. It also represents the difference in speed really well. Not too shabby.
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Apr 30 2004, 04:55 AM
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#6
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Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 309 Joined: 26-February 02 Member No.: 1,548 |
I agree, that is a pretty damn nifty rule.
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Apr 30 2004, 04:58 AM
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#7
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Running Target Group: Members Posts: 1,102 Joined: 23-March 04 From: The Grizzly Grunion, in a VIP room. Member No.: 6,191 |
:eek: I'm astounded. We actualy agree on something... somebody check the weather in Hell for a cold front. |
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Apr 30 2004, 05:01 AM
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#8
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Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 386 Joined: 2-January 04 From: California Protectorate Member No.: 5,949 |
I like that idea too. Would you apply this bonus for ALL the passes of the quicker char, or only apply it when the defender has no init passes left?
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Apr 30 2004, 05:12 AM
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#9
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Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 320 Joined: 13-August 02 From: Austin, Republic of Texas (not CAS) Member No.: 3,094 |
meh,
I think someone who is faster and has no or low skill *should* get trounced by the slower reacting master. call it my Kung-Fu-Master-respect orsomething, but being faster != being effective. -Mike R |
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Apr 30 2004, 05:13 AM
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#10
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Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 608 Joined: 9-July 02 From: California Member No.: 2,955 |
I'd go for the latter, if forced to choose.
Personally I'd limit counter-attacks (after you're out of turns) to one per opponent, or three, whichever is lower. |
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Apr 30 2004, 05:16 AM
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#11
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Runner Group: Members Posts: 2,901 Joined: 19-June 03 Member No.: 4,775 |
I would apply it to all passes of all characters as a blanket rule. When you attack, you recieve either a TN bonus or penalty dependant on the difference between the number of initiative passes you and your oponent have, and, when defending, you would get the same bonus or penalty.
[edit] Even under this rule, being faster does not make up for lack of skill. |
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Apr 30 2004, 05:39 AM
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#12
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Decker on the Threshold Group: Dumpshocked Posts: 2,922 Joined: 14-March 04 Member No.: 6,156 |
The real problem here is that, under the current rules, someone with a skill of 5 and an infinite initiative still loses to the guy with a skill of 6 and 1 initiative about 70-80% of the time. At the same time, there's no contest at all between two gunslingers: the guy with skill 5 and infinite initiative will beat the guy with 1 initiative and skill 6 in all but the most ludicrous of dice rolls. I like the idea of limitin a person's ability to counterattack by their number of Initiative Passes; that seems like a good way to go about it. |
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Apr 30 2004, 05:46 AM
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#13
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Running Target Group: Members Posts: 1,102 Joined: 23-March 04 From: The Grizzly Grunion, in a VIP room. Member No.: 6,191 |
But when two people are that closely matched with a 5 and a 6, the faster one SHOULD win. In hand-to-hand combat, being a speedy SOB counts for a lot.
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Apr 30 2004, 05:47 AM
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#14
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Traumatizing players since 1992 Group: Dumpshocked Posts: 3,282 Joined: 26-February 02 From: Las Vegas, NV Member No.: 220 |
except that this creates a hard line where on one side you can put up a fight, while a single pass later you get massacred with no chance whatsoever.
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Apr 30 2004, 05:55 AM
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#15
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Running Target Group: Members Posts: 1,028 Joined: 9-November 02 From: The Republic of Vermont Member No.: 3,581 |
It will, actually. I think you're underestimating the impact TN changes have. A one-pass difference, under your rule, will give the faster character TN 3 and the slower one TN 5, assuming no other modifiers. That means that the faster character will score, on average, twice as many successes per die as the slower one. That makes a 3-skill character with a one pass initiative advantage the equal of a slower 6-skill character. Better, actually, because the 3-skill guy won't run out of Combat Pool as quickly. And a one pass difference is well within the margin of randomness even for characters that have the exact same Reaction and Initiative. My group's solution to the problem has been to only allow the attacker to actually do damage. If the attacker wins, the defender resists damage normally. If the defender wins, the attacker takes "balance damage"... which basically amounts to having to soak the damage using Strength, and applying any resulting "damage" penalty to their melee tests for the next pass, after which it goes away. This lets a skilled defender take advantage of winning the dice contest, but still requires them to have actions available to exploit that advantage, which means a less skilled but faster attacker can throw a couple extra attacks without risking getting dismembered by the counterattack. He'll probably lose, but it's worth it for him to take the chance and hope he gets lucky, because he won't get killed if he does lose. It also gives strong characters a bit of extra advantage in melee. |
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Apr 30 2004, 06:01 AM
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#16
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Decker on the Threshold Group: Dumpshocked Posts: 2,922 Joined: 14-March 04 Member No.: 6,156 |
Which differs how from the similar example of people shooting at each other? In that scenario the guy with infinit initiative wins hands down, almost every time; in fact he would win even if the disparity in skill points had been far greater. Is melee really that different? |
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Apr 30 2004, 06:15 AM
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#17
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Shooting Target Group: Members Posts: 1,616 Joined: 15-March 04 Member No.: 6,158 |
My personal house rule:
You can sacrifice an initiative pass you have available to counterattack. Otherwise, you can only use full defense. The choice is yours with each attack you have to defend against. This way, a master will still trounce all over a neophyte. The only difference is the neophyte, being able to act and react faster, can initiate more aggressive actions in a shorter period of time. The master is limited to blocking incoming attacks, but unable to get a telling blow in any faster than he normally would. He can choose to counterstrike a single blow (and thus lose any ties) or wait until his initiative pass and both initiate an attack (and thus win any ties) and perform any other action he would normally be able to. In no way should an unaugmented master (or anyone else for that matter) be able to spontaneously act more quickly than they normally could simply because they have a hoard of people attacking. That's just silly. |
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Apr 30 2004, 06:49 AM
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#18
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Traumatizing players since 1992 Group: Dumpshocked Posts: 3,282 Joined: 26-February 02 From: Las Vegas, NV Member No.: 220 |
Yes, because typically the TN's for gun battles should be much higher. Typical TN's for ranged shots fall in the 6-10 range while in melee thaey are 4. This typically offset by the fact that melee is opposed.
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Apr 30 2004, 06:54 AM
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#19
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Shooting Target Group: Members Posts: 1,616 Joined: 15-March 04 Member No.: 6,158 |
Wha...?
Melee combat has the same visibility modifiers as ranged combat does, not to mention Reach, number of opponents, and positioning. Melee TNs should be in the 6-8 range most of the time, too, unless fighting in an open arena with perfect lighting and no one else around except your opponent. And then, only if you have exactly the same amount of Reach. |
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Apr 30 2004, 06:59 AM
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#20
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Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 117 Joined: 29-April 04 Member No.: 6,291 |
I would think, for this rule, even if the 3-passes-faster skill 1 guy gives a modifier of +2 to the Master and -2 to himself, the Master's still rolling 5 more dice, and five times as much combat pool if he wants. Still pretty fair. My own personal variation of this rule: Melee Combat happens. Both players check their Init score. If one beats the other with 2 passes or more (roundabouts 11-20 points), he or she can apply (just like reach) either a +1 modifier to the opponent or a -1 to the attacker. It scales up as well. At one initiative pass difference, there is no bonus. At 2 difference, a +/- 1 Modifier. At three, +/- 2, and so forth. Here's my rationale. If there's only one initiative pass difference, that's only a difference of (on average) 1/3 of a second. In gunfights, that's a critical amount of time, and in melee it's critical, but not SO critical. Moving 1/3 a second faster than your opponent doesn't let you do all that much, especially if you're not even really MOVING faster, just REACTING faster. Secondly, the reach-like bonus/penalty. If you can react faster, you can either make it harder for your opponent to hit you with a flurry of blocks mixed in with your attacks, or you can make it easier to do damage by getting "straight to the punch" just a little faster. I imagine it's a little hard to do both at the same time with only a 2/3 second difference. Opinions? Critiques? |
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Apr 30 2004, 07:03 AM
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#21
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Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 214 Joined: 8-June 03 Member No.: 4,696 |
Wow, my first post in almost a year, and it's to nitpick that melee has half visibility mods, not the same as ranged. Whoo. |
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Apr 30 2004, 07:06 AM
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#22
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Shooting Target Group: Members Posts: 1,616 Joined: 15-March 04 Member No.: 6,158 |
Right, which is why I put it at 6-8 instead of 6 to 10.
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Apr 30 2004, 07:30 AM
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#23
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Runner Group: Members Posts: 2,901 Joined: 19-June 03 Member No.: 4,775 |
That's a good point really. Like I said, I'm not terribly familiar with the melee rules, and I just sort of came up with this on the fly. Given that lack of skill and resultant lack of dice (even with special mechanics to allow for multiple successes on a single die) are the issue, do you think it's feasible to apply the bonus only to the attacked, but no penalty? To some degree, I'd really like to see speed reflected at least somewhat in combat; I just don't want it to be unbalancing. |
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Apr 30 2004, 07:31 AM
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#24
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Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 214 Joined: 8-June 03 Member No.: 4,696 |
Ok... I guess it has the same visibility modifiers in the sense that the same things affect visibility, sure.
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Apr 30 2004, 07:31 AM
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#25
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Traumatizing players since 1992 Group: Dumpshocked Posts: 3,282 Joined: 26-February 02 From: Las Vegas, NV Member No.: 220 |
Actually I was primarily referring to cover and movement which typically add 3-9 alone, not counting anything else.
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