 Melee and lots of init passes...bad? |
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 May 2 2004, 07:56 AM
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#126
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Runner  Group: Members Posts: 2,901 Joined: 19-June 03 Member No.: 4,775  |
I think Lime's pretty much nailed everything else, so let me say this: yes, I can get out of melee when I realize it's a lost cause. The problem with this is that melee shouldn't be such a ridiculous lost cause for a fast character in the first place, and I shouldn't have to tiptoe around the gaping holes in the rules to avoid breaking in two.
You may have a point. I'll have to take a closer look at the numbers tomorrow morning. As I've mentioned a few times, my familiarity here is a bit spotty due to complete lack of play. |
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May 2 2004, 08:58 AM
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#127
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Traumatizing players since 1992 Group: Dumpshocked Posts: 3,282 Joined: 26-February 02 From: Las Vegas, NV Member No.: 220 |
Well, that's the basis for our difference of opinion then, and theres nothing wrong with that.
Since melee is only a lost cause with a fast character if he sucks at melee, I dont have any problems with those rules. Given two equally skilled characters where one is faster than the other the faster one does have an advantage, although not a large one. This I also have absolutely no problem with. In my perception of the way things work in line with my experiences fighting in the real worls I don't feel this system has any gaping holes, but that's all just my opinion. I feel it works about exactly the way it should. My only problem with the melee system are the absolutely atrocious optional martial arts rules that butcher martial arts by using specific techniques and strikes to a system they still insist is abstract, most of which are wholly stupid to ever use in the first place. Those rules break hand to hand FAR more than any problems that existed in the original BBB IMHO. |
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May 2 2004, 09:57 AM
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#128
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Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 117 Joined: 29-April 04 Member No.: 6,291 |
My question is: Why not? Why shouldn't melee be a lost cause for a character because he's fast? Trust me on this, and I'm SURE you and everyone else knows it, speed is everything, EVERYTHING in combat, negating really crappy skills. It's a game of the quick and the dead, and just by going first and having two more actions than another mother gives you significant advantages. Ex: Going significantly faster than some bugger in combat and don't want to have to deal with him/her getting as many attacks as you do? Don't get into Melee until your last action, and spend the time until then putting them in a situation with serious modifiers. Slap a tranq patch on them (much easier than dealing damage in Melee). Smoke grenades, stun or physical wounds from afar, modifiers due to condition, lighting, obstacles, all are in your purview if you are the fastest. Already in combat? Melee attack until the opponent's out of turns, then spend your next turn (or next two, or three, and so on) stacking up the mods to your advantage, THEN attack. My basic point: Sure, the melee rules have an amount of broken-ness to them. The examples I and most assuredly others have shown prove the fact. But going first and being fast is its OWN advantage, and doesn't necessarily mean you should get all kinds of bonuses in Melee. Another thing. This isn't Final Fantasy. Hand-to-hand characters don't go "Ding, Bap bap bap!" wait a few seconds, then the opponent goes "Ding! Bap bap bap". It all happens at once. If someone is coming in close to punch the shit out of you, there will not be a MOMENT, regardless of how fast you are, that you aren't swinging your arms or defending yourselves. Ranged combat, on the other hand, is a series of discrete actions (pulling triggers, throwing 'nades, etc) that do lend well to turns.Sure, faster characters should be able to do more, but they have that option, see above. If a character comes up to a guy and doesn't expect to get swung at at LEAST more than five or six times, they're either very very good, or stupid. |
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May 2 2004, 10:09 AM
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#129
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Shooting Target Group: Members Posts: 1,512 Joined: 16-August 03 From: Northampton Member No.: 5,499 |
Whoa! This topic still going? I'm amazed.
Mr Woo would like to thank you all, he's had another birthday he's now 83. |
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May 2 2004, 10:33 AM
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#130
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Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 117 Joined: 29-April 04 Member No.: 6,291 |
It's been a two-person argument off-and-on, breaks when us 'other people' decide to place 2c on the table. Just hoping I don't catch any flame spillover.
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May 2 2004, 05:14 PM
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#131
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Running Target Group: Members Posts: 1,028 Joined: 9-November 02 From: The Republic of Vermont Member No.: 3,581 |
The attacker's using up his actions to do it. I don't have a problem with someone in melee hurting someone six or seven times in a round. I do have a problem with them doing it without having to use a single action to do so. |
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May 2 2004, 11:25 PM
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#132
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Grand Master of Run-Fu Group: Dumpshocked Posts: 6,840 Joined: 26-February 02 From: Tir Tairngire Member No.: 178 |
Ummm.... no. In reality, speed is more a function of skill than the other way around. I may be a lot quicker than, say, Raygun; but Ray can put six aimed shots downrange and into a target while I'm still getting lined up. In martial arts, the people who look like they're moving super-fast are actually not going all that fast; they're simply moving quickly enough in ways you can't pick up on. It's the same as a stage magician-- the better their skill, the faster they can pull off the trick. You can be as fast as you want; you'll never pull off a trick unless you're skilled.
You keep avoiding my question. Do you think a kick and a punch should do the exact same amount of damage? Or better yet, since this is a bit more relevant-- do people with hardliner gloves expressely lose their power bonus when using Tae Kwon Do? Carromeleg? Kick Attack? Muay Thai?
And this is a problem how? Look, have you seen any martial arts demos in aikido? Or have you ever done a demo? Sparred in a tournament? Generally, what happens is the other guys stand around for a few moments, taking stock. Then, they all move at once. Almost as fast, the master defends, and the other guys end up in a heap on the floor. A master wouldn't waste time going to each and every guy; that's unnecessary effort. There's no way that he could have walked up to each and every one, true enough. That would have taken too long. But there's no reason why he can't defend against four or more people simultaneously-- after all, they're expending the effort by coming to him. You keep avoiding my questions, Lime. How much experience do you have with this sort of thing in real life? |
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May 2 2004, 11:57 PM
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#133
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Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 214 Joined: 8-June 03 Member No.: 4,696 |
I should perhaps interject that real-life experience might not be the end-all and be-all of this argument when dealing with people who are acting and reacting two to four times as quickly as any normal human is even capable of.
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May 3 2004, 01:04 AM
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#134
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Great Dragon Group: Members Posts: 7,116 Joined: 26-February 02 Member No.: 1,449 |
I think a lot of people confuse a high Reaction with a high speed. Remember, a character with a Reaction of 18 and a Quickness of 6 moves at the same movement rate as a character with a Reaction of 5 and a Quickness of 6. Also remember that if you have an initiative of 35 and the other person has an initiative of 3, you still only get to go once against this person you supposedly outclass so much, before they get their action. I think hair-trigger reactions, if anything, would make you worse off against a martial arts master, who could make you move to block or dodge the slightest feints, leaving you wide open to his counterattack.
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May 3 2004, 01:12 AM
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#135
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Runner Group: Members Posts: 2,901 Joined: 19-June 03 Member No.: 4,775 |
That's not completely right, though. A character with reaction 42 can reload his gun fully 5 times in 3 seconds. That's pretty fast.
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May 3 2004, 01:28 AM
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#136
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Traumatizing players since 1992 Group: Dumpshocked Posts: 3,282 Joined: 26-February 02 From: Las Vegas, NV Member No.: 220 |
That's really efficiency of motion, not raw speed.
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May 3 2004, 01:30 AM
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#137
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Runner Group: Members Posts: 2,901 Joined: 19-June 03 Member No.: 4,775 |
You've got to be joking. Fully reloading a weapon in 0.6 seconds is speed.
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May 3 2004, 02:52 AM
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#138
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Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 117 Joined: 29-April 04 Member No.: 6,291 |
Cain, I think you misread my point. My point is, just because someone has a high Initiative score for one round doesn't necessarily mean that they get all kinds of bonuses in Melee. If I'm reading you right, I'm agreeing with you. Personally, I consider your Initiative score to be how fast you're going. Reaction's a big part of it, but people with a high Init do and move more in one turn than people with low init. Putting amount of movement over a period of time, the very definition of speed itself, lets you know that a 42-init character is literally moving faster than a 14-init character. But like I said, speed already gives characters significant advantages in combat in general (what I meant when I said speed is everything, I think this is where I was read wrong), and there's no reason to complain for a lack of advantages in melee combat just because your advantages don't apply specifically to hand-to-hand. You go first and you usually end up going last. Use the time wisely, because it's really all you need. Anything else is overkill. |
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May 3 2004, 03:21 AM
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#139
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Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 596 Joined: 18-February 03 Member No.: 4,112 |
IMHO, the core rules for melee strike a reasonable balance between game balance, game efficiency and the reality of this concept. Unfortunately, it is nigh impossible to simulate reality perfectly with a set of rules as simple as Shadowrun's.
Perhaps, but what is it that allows a 42 intiative character to let off 50 rounds in the same 3 seconds as a mage might let off 10. Not speed, but broken rules. |
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May 3 2004, 03:35 AM
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#140
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Runner Group: Members Posts: 2,901 Joined: 19-June 03 Member No.: 4,775 |
I don't really consider extremely fast reloading for a completely jacked samurai to be broken. Honestly, that's the entire point of cybernetic speed enhancement. Is the 10 rounds per phase rule retarded? You bet. But it's easily houserulable. Just take the weapon's 3 second rate of fire and divide it by the number of phases that combatants going to get.
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May 3 2004, 11:53 AM
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#141
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Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 345 Joined: 10-February 03 From: Leeds, UK Member No.: 4,046 |
I somehow managed to miss this thread so I just read through it (that's a half hour of my life gone).
My tuppence - the rules are OK as they are... However, what I'd like to consider is how a character with reasonably high init can best take advantage of the current rules. The guy in question is a starting Sammie with WR2 giving a reaction of roughly 10 with 3d6 init dice (nothing too munchie). I'm looking at which martial art to give him along with which maneouvers in order to best take advantage of his speed. Oddly, I'm looking at Aikido (well, actually Jujitsu, but the rules are the same), which fits in with the concept. Obviously the primary factor in that MA is that you lose one die as the attacker BUT using something like disorient with a good amount of CP dice should then mean that the next attack goes to him and he should eventually win out - likewise sweep I think is probably a good move as he can then disengage without penalty. Am I also reading the rules correctly that maneouvers can be used with no penalty as the defender? ie, my counterattack can be a sweep, throw or disorient? What other ways are there to take advantage of the rules instead of whining about them? |
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May 3 2004, 12:48 PM
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#142
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Canon Companion Group: Members Posts: 8,021 Joined: 2-March 03 From: The Morgue, Singapore LTG Member No.: 4,187 |
Karate/Kenpo, Full Offense, Distance Strike, Killing Hands:S.
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May 3 2004, 12:50 PM
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#143
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Dragon Group: Members Posts: 4,138 Joined: 10-June 03 From: Tennessee Member No.: 4,706 |
For a non-melee character, go with a high brawling and evasion and close combat. Don't worry about close combat, just survive long enough to shoot your opponent with a fragging gun and leave the kung-fu to the physads ;)
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May 3 2004, 01:05 PM
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#144
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Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 345 Joined: 10-February 03 From: Leeds, UK Member No.: 4,046 |
That's great in theory (and I spotted the smilie...), but you'd end up with loads of extremely specialised characters - I think the concept of the samurai is that he can hold his own in any combat situation - he's not going to outshoot a merc in long range combat (but will most likely be king of pistols/SMG range stuff), but should also be able to handle melee. Any adept with additional dice and appropriate powers will wipe the floor with him on either count, but there are ways and means and more dice does not mean smarter. As you say, if you can survive your opponents attack then dictate combat on your own terms that's already most of the battle won - it's also my thinking behind getting Jujitsu/Aikido against a more offensive martial art... (not that there's that much difference, again I'm thinking more flavour than dice). Even as a non-melee specialist I like the martial arts for flavour for a lot of characters, in the same way that I like a variety of guns for non-combatants (deckers, mages etc). |
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