Melee and lots of init passes...bad? Options

[Arethusa]

A difference in skill of one point with the slightly less skilled opponent moving as much as 4 times faster, if not more, is not a situation in which the less skilled opponent is simply outclasses. You're out of your mind if you think this.

[TinkerGnome]

Well, in that example, there were two rounds of melee before A could go again. Given the relative skill levels, he might not have lost both rounds, but if he took damage and his foe didn't, he'd be able to tell that. Basicly, I say the argument that "if slow player with slightly better skill fights fast player with slightly worse skill, slow player always wins" is a bad argument because the fast player has more options than the slow player.

Combat not going your way and you're faster? Why the hell are you fighting it, then? Make the characters the same skill, but give one a reach weapon and you get the same scenario.

"Hey, maybe that guy with the katana is too dangerous to tackle unarmed." Now THAT should be what goes through a character's head, not "I'm faster than him, so I've got to win!"

Either way, you only have to get lucky once to remove your opponent from the mortal realm.

[A Clockwork Lime]

Opponent A: Martial Arts X, Quickness 1[x1], Reaction 1, Initiative 1D6
Opponent B: Martial Arts X, Quickness 100[x10], Reaction 1,000, Initiative 100D6
Opponent C: Martial Arts X, Quickness 100[x10], Reaction 1,000, Initiative 100D6
Opponent D: Martial Arts X, Quickness 100[x10], Reaction 1,000, Initiative 100D6
Opponent E: Martial Arts X, Quickness 100[x10], Reaction 1,000, Initiative 100D6

All are using the Whirling maneuver for whatever reason. Feel free to change Martial Arts to any rating you like. I'm using X=3 for purposes of this post. These opponents are equal in every other way.

In this idiotic scenario where all the opponents are forced into a situation where they must attack and do nothing else, Opponent A effectively has a reaction speed of 4,001+401D6 just because he's fighting four unbelievably quick opponents. The only advantage his opponents have is that they win a tie (and that's something that's less likely to occur with ever increase to their Martial Arts scores). In any other scenario than a melee situation, Opponent A can barely move and is a borderline cripple. Yet, miraculously, he's four times faster than all four of his opponents when they're attacking him.

I don't care what your kungfuphilliac skillz say, that's not going to happen anywhere in anything even close to resembly reality, even using more reasonable stats.

Sure, someone who's a master at an art is likely going to trounce all over a bunch of newbies if they try to jump him at once. That's because he doesn't have to waste all those moves-countermoves each and every attack... he cuts through the chase and bitchslaps them before they get a chance to counter his counterattack. Unfortuntely, that's the only time that's going to happen; when skill levels are obscenely different from one another.

[TinkerGnome]

Actually, this whole argument is based on a false premise. If you have two characters being equal in all ways one fighting the other, then the one to loose will most likely be the first one to take a hit. At that point, you're screwed.

While it may not be 100% realistic for it to work the way it does, it is balanced. Unless you start throwing in kooky house rules about starting and ending melee, the fast character is a lot better off because he has options, something his one action a turn opponent lacks.

For your example, ACL, A will always loose. Each time he is attacked, there is a > 50% chance he will loose and have to resist damage. His ability to fight back is hindered by his use of whirling and the fact that he will take heavy penalties for attacking more than one foe a turn.

[RangerJoe]

Call me crazy, but a high-initiative melee fighter _is_ effective, just not for brute force melee attacks. A high-initiative combatant can position for an attack, forcing his opporent onto worse ground/footing, and then move in for an attack. There are any number of modifiers which a clever melee fighter can take advantage of thanks to high-init that a low-init fighter cannot (because he needs to use his one action to attack). For example, a clever "fast" fighter, can throw sand/gravel/sewer water into his opponents eyes, adding a visibility modifier (+1 to +8 to opponent's TNs). Superior position grants an easy -1 to the "fast" character's TN, helping mitigate a difference in skill. A clever fighter can damage his opponents without resorting to direct melee attacks, such as throwing nearby detritus at the opponent from range to distract him, or knocking over obstacles to trip the opponent (-2 to melee TNs if the opponent is prone!) A "fast" character can try to feint, pushing his opponent around (aren't there CC rules for that, maybe?)

Fact is, melee combat is not like ranged combat, in that there is no "shooting ducks in a barrel" in melee. Fighting someone is an intense matter, in which the clever and aware can win over the skilled and strong. Devastating attacks in melee are the result of using significant combat pool dice coupled with TN modifiers to unleash a single, powerful attack sequence. Any chump who wants to wail on his opponent for 3-4 initiative passes is missing the art of melee combat and deserves whatever ill effects come to him.

[A Clockwork Lime]

They're all using Whirling and, as such, no penalties apply for fighting multiple opponents. Again, the only advantage B, C, D, and E has is that they win a dead-heat draw. And, again, that's less likely to occur with every increase to their relative Martial Arts scores. Here's an example after hiking their skills up to 10.

X=10. TN=4. Dice Roller.

B: 2 3 17 3 3 2 4 5 4 3 = 4 successes
C: 2 1 2 1 1 4 3 1 4 1 = 2 successes
D: 2 4 8 4 5 1 2 4 13 3 = 6 successes
E: 1 4 5 2 1 51 4 5 2 = 5 successes
A-B: 3 11 1 1 4 4 4 4 1 5 = 6 successes [2 net]
A-C: 3 1 14 1 4 3 16 2 5 3 = 4 successes [2 net]
A-D: 3 2 5 5 3 3 5 9 5 4 = 6 successes [tie]
A-E: 4 2 7 5 5 4 9 1 2 4 = 7 successes [2 net]

(Yeesh, and I was expecting at least a couple sets to prove my point.) With that one set of dice, A succeeded in landing a telling blow against everyone except D, of which he tied and only had to resist a Moderate Stun blow. B, C, and E and had to resist a Serious Stun blow, which is significantly less likely to happen (especially if they're all average in every other way), thus meaning they're effectively out of the game on the remaining attacks unless D succeeds in landing a harsh blow before they take another one..

Not bad for a cripple.

[BitBasher]

Now try a set Without the optional whirling rules. Try not to set up the example specifically to benefit the outnumbered man, as it would actually work using the BBB. You set an "example" that consists o something that would never, ever happen in a real game. Hell, at least dont have the attackers whirling for no good reason...

Or are you attempting to prove that in a wholly unrealistic scenario you can get numbers to support you? If you're trying to ptove you can fabricate false numbers to support your side then yeah, you won!

[edit]
Note, also A will get his ass beat down because you are forgetting combat pool, which is a very important part of melee. If the four guys even with your heinously biased example dump their combat pool in the first attack he's toast. He doesnt have enough to cover them all, not even close. Knockout time. or he has enough wound modifiers to send him out for the count.
[/edit]

[Kagetenshi]

Those rolls were worse than average statistically for the attackers and better than average for the defender. You can expect five successes on every single one of those tests, which means M stun resisted four times by A.

~J

[ShadowGhost]

Actually with two players who are equal in skill level, statistically, the attacker will always win, as the defender needs 1 more success than the attacker rolling the same number of dice as the attacker.

Don't forget about Interception - it allows Free attacks against anyone who passes within 1 meter of you who is trying to get by you. You can have no actions left and still get a free attack.

Lots of things in SR don't make sense or defy physics/reality.

A troll can throw objects that break the sound barrier.

A Combat turn lasts three seconds.

Troll with 14 Strength x 30 (max range for Aerodynamic Grenades). Initiative of 20+ means three actions during initiative pass. Troll Throws grenade. It takes one second for grenade to arrive at destination.

In one second the grenade travels 420 m

The speed of sound is a mere 320.29m/s at sea level.

dink-dink-dink of grenade landing is accompanied by sonic boom of said grenade breaking sound barrier, which makes the actual explosion sound like a whimper.
***

An elf with quickness 8, athletics 6 rolls athletics to increase running speed.

Elf runs 33m/combat turn. Works out to 39.6 KPH.

Add spirit force 6 using power of movement (Quickness multiplied by force of spirit.), and Guard on elf.

That same elf now runs 237.6 KPH. Faster than most modern vehicles today.

[TinkerGnome]

ACL, there's no way to eliminate the penalties for attacking multiple opponents completely (you can reduce it to +1 per opponent only). So A would be at +5 to hit his foes on his turn... not a good prospect for actually dealing damage to them.

[BitBasher]

TinkerGnome, he had his attackers whirling for no good reason just to balance out the tagret numbers. because.. of course that happens. :|

[TinkerGnome]

No... on A's turn to attack, he takes a penalty for attacking multiple foes (+2/target or +1/target if he has multistrike which also reduces his attack power) if he's going to do that. The whirling penalty doesn't apply to counter attacking, anyway.

If he's not attacking multiple foes a turn, even with the TNs being even, the fact that he defends 4 times a turn and only attacks 1 is a death sentance because of the "attack wins ties" things.

[BitBasher]

Correct, and lets not forget they get combat pool. He;s toast.

[edit]
also, each of his opponents by the stats he gave them have a combat pool of at least 334... sooo toast. just dead.
[/edit]

[A Clockwork Lime]

Tinker, there's only a flat +1 modifier, period. It's not +1 per combatant. Whirling ignores all Friends in Melee modifiers as far as I'm aware, but replaces it with a flat +1 TN penalty in its place. With all five of them Whirling, it all balances out to a TN of 5 instead of 4. Feel free to change the scenario to A vs. B if it makes you feel better, the stupidity of a cripple become super-fast mojo man still shines through.

As for relying on averages to prove a point in these types of scenarios, all I have to say to that is: Oy. Averages only work if we're talking about millions upon millions of rolls. For small doses, they don't mean much of anything as that single set of rolls above amply proved. A tie resulted once on a single set. That's not likely to change with multiple sets, though after a few thousand sets, I'm sure if you average them all together it'll come out that way.

[TinkerGnome]

[A Clockwork Lime]

He's not attacking multiple opponents (that's what Multi-Strike is for). He's going one-on-one with each attack.

[TinkerGnome]

Oh, I get it. I misread your notation. Anyway, the TN 4 vs TN 5 thing still comes into play. If the foes are whirling A is likely to win.

[BitBasher]

And now lets add in combat pool.

A is toast on the second attacker.

[A Clockwork Lime]

Fine. They both have an Intelligence and Willpower of 1,000, too. A's Combat Pool is 1,000 while B's Combat Pool is 1,005. It's going to take a pretty long time at a Skill level of 3 or even 10 to whittle that down.

[krishcane]

Alright, that settles it then. Next character I'm making is an athletic elf mage with a spirit that helps him run 237.6 Kph. "Hey Sprinty, you want a ride home?" "Nah, that's okay. I'm better off on foot."

Also by the rules, if my elf can go that fast (198 m/Combat turn, or 66 meters/sec), he can outrun Heavy Pistol range in just over three-quarters of a second. Since it takes longer than that for most people to draw and fire, he can (with a delayed action) be out of range by the time you pull the trigger.

Then he can come back in on his next action to punch you in the nose. :P

--K

[BitBasher]

[A Clockwork Lime]

I'm not being sarcastic about them. You're the one clutching at anything and everything that detracts from the main point of the example, using it as an excuse for why it's all okay. Try reading your own link sometime. I'm just trying to throw out everything beyond the main point so that it can be focused on instead of all the other crap.

[Nikoli]

Sick thought, phys ad, 6 unarmed skill, 6 Unarmed skill enhancement 6 levels of counterstrike.

18 dice for being attacked melee and no combat pool used ever.

[BitBasher]

You think using combat pool is grasping? as in it's uncommon or seldom used? Please explain... Combat pool is a serious part of the offensive equasion in melee combat since it's an opposed roll. Combat pool is also determined largely (2/3) by reaction, another point thats valid in this conversation. A significant percentage of the time combat pool in melee can be the determining factor.

[I Eat Time]

Ok, for the purposes of this argument, I'm going to restate the problem in a different context, to more illustrate what I see as the real point.

Two Melee fighters, we'll call them Physads just so they have a very viable excuse for being in melee, have equal skill, equal combat pool, and begin the first initiative roll for this combat in Melee Combat.

PA 1 rolls and gets an initiative of 38
PA 2 rolls and gets an 8. Don't ask questions, I've seen crappier luck.

Now, over the course of this combat, both players make 5 total melee attack rolls. On a completely random analysis, PA 1 only has a moderately slight advantage over PA 2, and that's only the case where there are ties. Despite being almost 5 times as fast, PA 1's only advantage is the same advantage he/she would get if their initiative score was 9, which is that ties go to the attacker.

Factor in the chance that first melee, PA 2 does damage to PA 1 and all bets are off, it's an even or even more skewed playing field, slanted against PA 1.