FORCE of an increase attribute spell Options

[Noll]

Is it the current value of the attribute plus any augmentation? Or the value of the augment you desire?

Let's assume a character wants to cast "increase charisma" and she has charisma 9. (Elf + Exceptional Attribute)

Does she needs a force 9 spell, a force 4 spell (up to +4) or a force 13 spell (up to 9+4) ?

[SpellBinder]

As I understand it, Force 9. Hits (up to 4 in this case) determine how much of a boost you get.

[Chrome Head]

That's also my understanding. One thing I've been wondering though, is let's say you're an elf with 5 Cha. Can you cast a Force 5 increase charisma with edge (avoiding the pesky limit), roll 8 successes to make your CHA 13, and then sustain it with a force 5 focus!?

[Draco18s]

That's also my understanding. One thing I've been wondering though, is let's say you're an elf with 5 Cha. Can you cast a Force 5 increase charisma with edge (avoiding the pesky limit), roll 8 successes to make your CHA 13, and then sustain it with a force 5 focus!?

You avoid the limit on the spell, but you still hit the attribute cap.

[kerbarian]

One thing I've been wondering though, is let's say you're an elf with 5 Cha. Can you cast a Force 5 increase charisma with edge (avoiding the pesky limit), roll 8 successes to make your CHA 13, and then sustain it with a force 5 focus!?

Augmented attribute max is natural attribute (5 in your example) +4, not natural max +4. So in the scenario you describe, the elf would end up at 9 Cha and the last four hits would be ignored.

[Dolanar]

Actually, Augmented max is your Racial Max +150% so for humans max racial is 6, the augmented max is 9 which is +150%. So an Elf has a Racial Max of 8 & an Augmented max of 12.

[Draco18s]

Actually, Augmented max is your Racial Max +150% so for humans max racial is 6, the augmented max is 9 which is +150%. So an Elf has a Racial Max of 8 & an Augmented max of 12.

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SR4 rules


SR5 rules
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Augmented attribute max is natural attribute (5 in your example) +4, not natural max +4. So in the scenario you describe, the elf would end up at 9 Cha and the last four hits would be ignored.

[Dolanar]

never actually noticed that difference in 5, shows how much I actually payed attention, so better for humans, no difference for trolls & such on the high end.

edit- I can't seem to find information on Augmented maximums, can you reference where in the book it is?

[Chrome Head]

Never noticed either, and I guess that's why I thought it was so weird. I'm glad I was mistaken, thanks for clearing that up guys.

[SpellBinder]

never actually noticed that difference in 5, shows how much I actually payed attention, so better for humans, no difference for trolls & such on the high end.

edit- I can't seem to find information on Augmented maximums, can you reference where in the book it is?

It's a bitch to find:

SR5, Page 94, "Keep in mind there are three restrictions when it comes to purchasing gear. First, when purchasing augmentations such as cyberware and bioware, each attribute rating (Mental and Physical) can only receive an augmentation bonus of up to +4. If the attribute being raised has not reached its natural maximum limit, the attribute can be raised naturally with Karma; but at no point can augmentations exceed the +4 bonus cap."

[Chrome Head]

Hmm yes okay for gear, and what about for spells? I would like that quote too, if you could oblige (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)

[Dolanar]

The quote actually has me slightly confused, it says each attribute rating can only get +4, & they specifically call out Physical & Mental being those ratings. Does this mean you can only have a +4 total increase from all phsyical attributes combined, so like +1 to str, bod, rea, agi, or +2 to bod & rea, or a +3 & +1 etc?

edit: after thinking about it I believe they are calling out the Physical & Mental stats as the only ones with the +4 limit, which begs the question, if you could find some way of building your edge (similar to Initiations or Submersions) could you theoretically have infinite Edge, just the same as you can theoretically have infinite Magic or Resonance?

[Epicedion]

The quote actually has me slightly confused, it says each attribute rating can only get +4, & they specifically call out Physical & Mental being those ratings. Does this mean you can only have a +4 total increase from all phsyical attributes combined, so like +1 to str, bod, rea, agi, or +2 to bod & rea, or a +3 & +1 etc?

edit: after thinking about it I believe they are calling out the Physical & Mental stats as the only ones with the +4 limit, which begs the question, if you could find some way of building your edge (similar to Initiations or Submersions) could you theoretically have infinite Edge, just the same as you can theoretically have infinite Magic or Resonance?

Not so oddly, there are no mechanisms to augment Edge, Magic, or Resonance. Technically you could say their max is +0.

[xsansara]

Hmm yes okay for gear, and what about for spells? I would like that quote too, if you could oblige (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)

Spell description Increase [attribute] (p. 288)
The attribute is increased by an amount equal to the hits scored, up to the target's augmented maximum (any hits that would increase the Attribute beyond its augmented maximum are ignored).

[Dolanar]

Actually Epicedion, Initiation & Submersion allow you to raise your Magic Score or Resonance score, making your augmented maxiumum your racial + your initiation/submersion level so as long as you continue to raise those, you can continue to raise your magic. so because there is no limit to initiation/submersion, your magic/resonance is in theory infinite.

[Epicedion]

Actually Epicedion, Initiation & Submersion allow you to raise your Magic Score or Resonance score, making your augmented maxiumum your racial + your initiation/submersion level so as long as you continue to raise those, you can continue to raise your magic. so because there is no limit to initiation/submersion, your magic/resonance is in theory infinite.

No, they make your natural maximum go up. There's still no way to augment those attributes. You can only buy them up with Karma.

[Dolanar]

raising the maximum is what I was referencing, I stated that the rules specifically call out only the Mental & Physical stats as the only ones that have the +4 limit for augmented maximum, so if you could raise your Edge's maximum in some way similar to the way Magic or Resonance can be raised with Initiation & Submersion, could you feasibly have an infinite Edge.

[Chinane]

raising the maximum is what I was referencing, I stated that the rules specifically call out only the Mental & Physical stats as the only ones that have the +4 limit for augmented maximum, so if you could raise your Edge's maximum in some way similar to the way Magic or Resonance can be raised with Initiation & Submersion, could you feasibly have an infinite Edge.

And it would STILL be your natural maximum, not your AUGMENTED maximum. For the simple reason that you cannot augment edge (or magic, as in your initiation example).

Raising maximum =/= augmenting.

[Dolanar]

yes, I stopped referring to the raising of Magic & Resonance as an Augmented Maximum, I simply said THEIR maximum.

[Epicedion]

raising the maximum is what I was referencing, I stated that the rules specifically call out only the Mental & Physical stats as the only ones that have the +4 limit for augmented maximum, so if you could raise your Edge's maximum in some way similar to the way Magic or Resonance can be raised with Initiation & Submersion, could you feasibly have an infinite Edge.

Well, yeah. And I suppose if you never stopped growing you could become infinitely tall. You've presented a tautology. There's no mechanic to increase the natural maximum for Edge (beyond the +1 from Lucky), though, so you're really just saying "if A were true, then A would be true" and I'm not sure what you're on about.

[Dolanar]

it was simply an amusing thought, maybe something someone may decide to implement as a houserule or something to play around with, that is all.

[Chrome Head]

Spell description Increase [attribute] (p. 288)
The attribute is increased by an amount equal to the hits scored, up to the target's augmented maximum (any hits that would increase the Attribute beyond its augmented maximum are ignored).

Thanks! Hey I don't want to be picky, but it's funny that they refer to an augmented maximum, whereas I don't believe that concept is really defined directly anywhere, just that blurb in the spending resources, in character creation p. 94, which doesn't call it that. Way to make it hard to understand.

[Rubic]

Spell description Increase [attribute] (p. 288)
The attribute is increased by an amount equal to the hits scored, up to the target's augmented maximum (any hits that would increase the Attribute beyond its augmented maximum are ignored).

Additionally, which everybody seems to be ignoring...

(also from P. 288, Increase [Attribute] spell description):
The Force of the spell must equal or exceed
the (augmented) value of the Attribute being affected.
The Attribute is increased by an amount equal to the hits
scored, up to the target’s augmented maximum (any hits
that would increase the Attribute beyond its augmented
maximum are ignored). Each Attribute can only be af-
fected by a single Increase Attribute spell at a time.

So... if you're an Elf with a Cha 9 (unaugmented), then you'd have to cast Increase [Charisma] at Force 13 in order to augment it to cap. You'd also need a Force 13 sustaining focus to maintain it.
Edit: unless the spell description was just worded horribly (it was) and it REALLY means "The force of the spell must equal or exceed the amount of the augmentation you wish to place on the attribute." As it's currently worded, though, Force 13 for a Cha 9 Elf to gain a +4.

[Draco18s]

Edit: unless the spell description was just worded horribly (it was) and it REALLY means "The force of the spell must equal or exceed the amount of the augmentation you wish to place on the attribute." As it's currently worded, though, Force 13 for a Cha 9 Elf to gain a +4.

Unless it means the value of the attribute (including existing augmentations) before the spell has an effect, meaning the elf with Cha 9 would need a F9 spell to get +4. The Cha 6(9) human would also need a F9 spell.

[Rubic]

Unless it means the value of the attribute (including existing augmentations) before the spell has an effect, meaning the elf with Cha 9 would need a F9 spell to get +4. The Cha 6(9) human would also need a F9 spell.

I can see what you mean there, but as it's worded, the most likely reading of it, imho, is that you need the force of spell to meet the augmented value you're going for, rather than the existing value.

The key phrase:
" The Force of the spell must equal or exceed the (augmented) value of the Attribute being affected."
Emphasis added.

That's the only problem I see with that spell description, and they should have sussed it out to specify their intent. As it stands, it easily indicates the expected augmentation as the Force value.

I'd like it more if it said "The spell's Force must at least equal the target Attribute's existing (augmented) value."
Penalized for word count, I'd reckon, though my rewrite is more clear and 7 letters cheaper by typing class standards (spaces count for half a letter; not sure if this transfers to professional typography).