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Noll
Is it the current value of the attribute plus any augmentation? Or the value of the augment you desire?

Let's assume a character wants to cast "increase charisma" and she has charisma 9. (Elf + Exceptional Attribute)

Does she needs a force 9 spell, a force 4 spell (up to +4) or a force 13 spell (up to 9+4) ?
SpellBinder
As I understand it, Force 9. Hits (up to 4 in this case) determine how much of a boost you get.
Chrome Head
That's also my understanding. One thing I've been wondering though, is let's say you're an elf with 5 Cha. Can you cast a Force 5 increase charisma with edge (avoiding the pesky limit), roll 8 successes to make your CHA 13, and then sustain it with a force 5 focus!?
Draco18s
QUOTE (Chrome Head @ Sep 8 2013, 08:46 PM) *
That's also my understanding. One thing I've been wondering though, is let's say you're an elf with 5 Cha. Can you cast a Force 5 increase charisma with edge (avoiding the pesky limit), roll 8 successes to make your CHA 13, and then sustain it with a force 5 focus!?


You avoid the limit on the spell, but you still hit the attribute cap.
kerbarian
QUOTE (Chrome Head @ Sep 8 2013, 06:46 PM) *
One thing I've been wondering though, is let's say you're an elf with 5 Cha. Can you cast a Force 5 increase charisma with edge (avoiding the pesky limit), roll 8 successes to make your CHA 13, and then sustain it with a force 5 focus!?

Augmented attribute max is natural attribute (5 in your example) +4, not natural max +4. So in the scenario you describe, the elf would end up at 9 Cha and the last four hits would be ignored.
Dolanar
Actually, Augmented max is your Racial Max +150% so for humans max racial is 6, the augmented max is 9 which is +150%. So an Elf has a Racial Max of 8 & an Augmented max of 12.
Draco18s
QUOTE (Dolanar @ Sep 8 2013, 08:57 PM) *
Actually, Augmented max is your Racial Max +150% so for humans max racial is 6, the augmented max is 9 which is +150%. So an Elf has a Racial Max of 8 & an Augmented max of 12.



SR4 rules


SR5 rules


QUOTE (kerbarian @ Sep 8 2013, 08:52 PM) *
Augmented attribute max is natural attribute (5 in your example) +4, not natural max +4. So in the scenario you describe, the elf would end up at 9 Cha and the last four hits would be ignored.
Dolanar
never actually noticed that difference in 5, shows how much I actually payed attention, so better for humans, no difference for trolls & such on the high end.

edit- I can't seem to find information on Augmented maximums, can you reference where in the book it is?
Chrome Head
Never noticed either, and I guess that's why I thought it was so weird. I'm glad I was mistaken, thanks for clearing that up guys.
SpellBinder
QUOTE (Dolanar @ Sep 8 2013, 09:16 PM) *
never actually noticed that difference in 5, shows how much I actually payed attention, so better for humans, no difference for trolls & such on the high end.

edit- I can't seem to find information on Augmented maximums, can you reference where in the book it is?
It's a bitch to find:

SR5, Page 94, "Keep in mind there are three restrictions when it comes to purchasing gear. First, when purchasing augmentations such as cyberware and bioware, each attribute rating (Mental and Physical) can only receive an augmentation bonus of up to +4. If the attribute being raised has not reached its natural maximum limit, the attribute can be raised naturally with Karma; but at no point can augmentations exceed the +4 bonus cap."
Chrome Head
Hmm yes okay for gear, and what about for spells? I would like that quote too, if you could oblige smile.gif
Dolanar
The quote actually has me slightly confused, it says each attribute rating can only get +4, & they specifically call out Physical & Mental being those ratings. Does this mean you can only have a +4 total increase from all phsyical attributes combined, so like +1 to str, bod, rea, agi, or +2 to bod & rea, or a +3 & +1 etc?

edit: after thinking about it I believe they are calling out the Physical & Mental stats as the only ones with the +4 limit, which begs the question, if you could find some way of building your edge (similar to Initiations or Submersions) could you theoretically have infinite Edge, just the same as you can theoretically have infinite Magic or Resonance?
Epicedion
QUOTE (Dolanar @ Sep 9 2013, 01:22 AM) *
The quote actually has me slightly confused, it says each attribute rating can only get +4, & they specifically call out Physical & Mental being those ratings. Does this mean you can only have a +4 total increase from all phsyical attributes combined, so like +1 to str, bod, rea, agi, or +2 to bod & rea, or a +3 & +1 etc?

edit: after thinking about it I believe they are calling out the Physical & Mental stats as the only ones with the +4 limit, which begs the question, if you could find some way of building your edge (similar to Initiations or Submersions) could you theoretically have infinite Edge, just the same as you can theoretically have infinite Magic or Resonance?


Not so oddly, there are no mechanisms to augment Edge, Magic, or Resonance. Technically you could say their max is +0.
xsansara
QUOTE (Chrome Head @ Sep 9 2013, 06:07 AM) *
Hmm yes okay for gear, and what about for spells? I would like that quote too, if you could oblige smile.gif


Spell description Increase [attribute] (p. 288)
The attribute is increased by an amount equal to the hits scored, up to the target's augmented maximum (any hits that would increase the Attribute beyond its augmented maximum are ignored).
Dolanar
Actually Epicedion, Initiation & Submersion allow you to raise your Magic Score or Resonance score, making your augmented maxiumum your racial + your initiation/submersion level so as long as you continue to raise those, you can continue to raise your magic. so because there is no limit to initiation/submersion, your magic/resonance is in theory infinite.
Epicedion
QUOTE (Dolanar @ Sep 9 2013, 03:10 AM) *
Actually Epicedion, Initiation & Submersion allow you to raise your Magic Score or Resonance score, making your augmented maxiumum your racial + your initiation/submersion level so as long as you continue to raise those, you can continue to raise your magic. so because there is no limit to initiation/submersion, your magic/resonance is in theory infinite.


No, they make your natural maximum go up. There's still no way to augment those attributes. You can only buy them up with Karma.
Dolanar
raising the maximum is what I was referencing, I stated that the rules specifically call out only the Mental & Physical stats as the only ones that have the +4 limit for augmented maximum, so if you could raise your Edge's maximum in some way similar to the way Magic or Resonance can be raised with Initiation & Submersion, could you feasibly have an infinite Edge.
Chinane
QUOTE (Dolanar @ Sep 9 2013, 09:03 AM) *
raising the maximum is what I was referencing, I stated that the rules specifically call out only the Mental & Physical stats as the only ones that have the +4 limit for augmented maximum, so if you could raise your Edge's maximum in some way similar to the way Magic or Resonance can be raised with Initiation & Submersion, could you feasibly have an infinite Edge.


And it would STILL be your natural maximum, not your AUGMENTED maximum. For the simple reason that you cannot augment edge (or magic, as in your initiation example).

Raising maximum =/= augmenting.
Dolanar
yes, I stopped referring to the raising of Magic & Resonance as an Augmented Maximum, I simply said THEIR maximum.
Epicedion
QUOTE (Dolanar @ Sep 9 2013, 05:03 AM) *
raising the maximum is what I was referencing, I stated that the rules specifically call out only the Mental & Physical stats as the only ones that have the +4 limit for augmented maximum, so if you could raise your Edge's maximum in some way similar to the way Magic or Resonance can be raised with Initiation & Submersion, could you feasibly have an infinite Edge.


Well, yeah. And I suppose if you never stopped growing you could become infinitely tall. You've presented a tautology. There's no mechanic to increase the natural maximum for Edge (beyond the +1 from Lucky), though, so you're really just saying "if A were true, then A would be true" and I'm not sure what you're on about.
Dolanar
it was simply an amusing thought, maybe something someone may decide to implement as a houserule or something to play around with, that is all.
Chrome Head
QUOTE (xsansara @ Sep 9 2013, 02:52 AM) *
Spell description Increase [attribute] (p. 288)
The attribute is increased by an amount equal to the hits scored, up to the target's augmented maximum (any hits that would increase the Attribute beyond its augmented maximum are ignored).


Thanks! Hey I don't want to be picky, but it's funny that they refer to an augmented maximum, whereas I don't believe that concept is really defined directly anywhere, just that blurb in the spending resources, in character creation p. 94, which doesn't call it that. Way to make it hard to understand.
Rubic
QUOTE (xsansara @ Sep 9 2013, 02:52 AM) *
Spell description Increase [attribute] (p. 288)
The attribute is increased by an amount equal to the hits scored, up to the target's augmented maximum (any hits that would increase the Attribute beyond its augmented maximum are ignored).

Additionally, which everybody seems to be ignoring...

(also from P. 288, Increase [Attribute] spell description):
The Force of the spell must equal or exceed
the (augmented) value of the Attribute being affected.
The Attribute is increased by an amount equal to the hits
scored, up to the target’s augmented maximum (any hits
that would increase the Attribute beyond its augmented
maximum are ignored). Each Attribute can only be af-
fected by a single Increase Attribute spell at a time.

So... if you're an Elf with a Cha 9 (unaugmented), then you'd have to cast Increase [Charisma] at Force 13 in order to augment it to cap. You'd also need a Force 13 sustaining focus to maintain it.
Edit: unless the spell description was just worded horribly (it was) and it REALLY means "The force of the spell must equal or exceed the amount of the augmentation you wish to place on the attribute." As it's currently worded, though, Force 13 for a Cha 9 Elf to gain a +4.
Draco18s
QUOTE (Rubic @ Sep 10 2013, 06:17 PM) *
Edit: unless the spell description was just worded horribly (it was) and it REALLY means "The force of the spell must equal or exceed the amount of the augmentation you wish to place on the attribute." As it's currently worded, though, Force 13 for a Cha 9 Elf to gain a +4.


Unless it means the value of the attribute (including existing augmentations) before the spell has an effect, meaning the elf with Cha 9 would need a F9 spell to get +4. The Cha 6(9) human would also need a F9 spell.
Rubic
QUOTE (Draco18s @ Sep 10 2013, 06:33 PM) *
Unless it means the value of the attribute (including existing augmentations) before the spell has an effect, meaning the elf with Cha 9 would need a F9 spell to get +4. The Cha 6(9) human would also need a F9 spell.

I can see what you mean there, but as it's worded, the most likely reading of it, imho, is that you need the force of spell to meet the augmented value you're going for, rather than the existing value.

The key phrase:
" The Force of the spell must equal or exceed the (augmented) value of the Attribute being affected."
Emphasis added.

That's the only problem I see with that spell description, and they should have sussed it out to specify their intent. As it stands, it easily indicates the expected augmentation as the Force value.

I'd like it more if it said "The spell's Force must at least equal the target Attribute's existing (augmented) value."
Penalized for word count, I'd reckon, though my rewrite is more clear and 7 letters cheaper by typing class standards (spaces count for half a letter; not sure if this transfers to professional typography).
Tymeaus Jalynsfein
QUOTE (Rubic @ Sep 10 2013, 06:32 PM) *
I can see what you mean there, but as it's worded, the most likely reading of it, imho, is that you need the force of spell to meet the augmented value you're going for, rather than the existing value.

The key phrase:
" The Force of the spell must equal or exceed the (augmented) value of the Attribute being affected."
Emphasis added.

That's the only problem I see with that spell description, and they should have sussed it out to specify their intent. As it stands, it easily indicates the expected augmentation as the Force value.

I'd like it more if it said "The spell's Force must at least equal the target Attribute's existing (augmented) value."
Penalized for word count, I'd reckon, though my rewrite is more clear and 7 letters cheaper by typing class standards (spaces count for half a letter; not sure if this transfers to professional typography).


I read it that you need the Force of the Spell to equal the Current Value of the Attribute (Augmented or Not). Assuming you need Force equal to Maximum Value (Current +4) makes no Sense, since you MAY NOT GET 4 hits. At which point, your Attribute is not at Attribute +4, so you do not need Force equal to that value to raise your Attribute, but actually require a lower Force value, which in turn starts that logic all over again.
Chrome Head
QUOTE (Rubic @ Sep 10 2013, 07:32 PM) *
The key phrase:
" The Force of the spell must equal or exceed the (augmented) value of the Attribute being affected."
Emphasis added.

That's the only problem I see with that spell description, and they should have sussed it out to specify their intent. As it stands, it easily indicates the expected augmentation as the Force value.

I'd like it more if it said "The spell's Force must at least equal the target Attribute's existing (augmented) value."
Penalized for word count, I'd reckon, though my rewrite is more clear and 7 letters cheaper by typing class standards (spaces count for half a letter; not sure if this transfers to professional typography).


One can argue that it does not say the expected augmented attribute either. In fact, at the moment you cast the spell, it is quite obvious what the (possibly augmented) attribute is, and so that value should be used. You'd need a very clear indication of how to compute the expected augmented attribute for this to make any sense (for instance, let's say I plan to cast with only 3 dice, then we can assume I can't have more than 3 successes..), and I don't see any such explanation. It seems pretty clear-cut to me, and likely a case of Occam's razor. Also, the spell could never effectively be cast at Force 1, which strikes me as strange.
xsansara
Seriously, this isn't really disputable.

You cast the spell with a Force of the current attribute and can have up to 4 effective hits. Unless, the attribute is already augmented (e.g. by warez), in which case you can only achieve less, but need higher Force.

Examples: Charisma 1: Cast on F1 and augment to up to 5 (if you break limit, e.g. by reagents, Edge)
Agility 2(3): Cast on F3 and augment to up to 6 (no limit breaker needed)
Body 8(12): No point in casting.

EDITED for Rubics comment (Sry, we use reagents so much, I don't even think about them anymore)
Rubic
QUOTE (xsansara @ Sep 11 2013, 01:52 AM) *
Seriously, this isn't really disputable.

You cast the spell with a Force of the current attribute and can have up to 4 effective hits. Unless, the attribute is already augmented (e.g. by warez), in which case you can only achieve less, but need higher Force.

Examples: Charisma 1: Cast on F1 and augment to up to 5
Agility 2(3): Cast on F3 and augment to up to 6
Body 8(12): No point in casting.

Alright, understood and liked. Though, for F1 on a Cha 1 person, you're only getting 1 success unless you spend karma to break limits. A paradox, I guess, but you'll generally want at least a F4. The theory is still sound, though.
SpellBinder
Spend reagents, spend Edge, or cast at Force 4 for Improve Charisma in that scenario above. That'll let you hit the threshold.
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