Hardened Armor example, I needed a little humor today Options

[Patrick Goodman]

I found and cleaned up the example I used to sell Hardened Armor for SR5. It made me chuckle, and considering how today's going, that's a good thing. I shall share it with you now.

= = = Here Be Example = = =

This example is using SR4 skills, skill levels, and gear, since we didn’t have the SR5 equivalents just yet, and besides, it was to sell the concept for SR5.

Opponent 1 is a juggernaut. For purposes of this example, he has a Body of 17, a Reaction of 5, and a Hardened Armor score of 12 (actual numbers will change when the critter is converted to SR5, but this will do for an example).

Opponent 2 is a street sam type with a Predator IV and a Panther XXL cannon. For purposes of this example, he has an agility of 4, a smartlink, a Pistols skill of 5, and a Heavy Weapons skill of 4.

For ease of reference, the relevant stats for a Predator IV are DV 5P and AP -1, while the Panther XXL has DV 10P and AP -5.

Our scenario begins with Opponent 2 rounding a corner to find Opponent 1 eating his Harley Scorpion (and juggernauts are, you’ll remember, both big enough and stupid enough to do this). Taking exception to this monstrosity eating his ride, Opponent 2 pulls his Predator IV from its holster, aims, and fires at Opponent 1. He has a total of 12 dice for this attack (4 Agility, 5 Pistols, smartlink, and he takes an Aim action). He gets 4 hits; Opponent 1 gets 1 hit for his Reaction to avoid being hit. This gives Opponent 2 a total of 3 net hits.

The Predator, intimidating as it might be to a humanoid opponent, has a DV of 5P; the net hits give him a modified DV of 8P. With its AP of -1, the effective Hardened Armor value of Opponent 1 is 11. This is greater than the weapon’s DV; the round strikes Opponent 1 solidly on its side and bounces off, much to the annoyance of Opponent 2. Opponent 1 does not notice this irritation and continues munching on the motorcycle.

Realizing his folly, Opponent 2 holsters the pistol and pulls the Panther off his back. This time he has 11 dice (4 Agility, 4 Heavy Weapons skill, smartlink, and the Aim action). Aiming the cannon, he braces and fires. He does nicely for himself, scoring 6 hits out of his 11 dice.

Opponent 1 rolls 2 hits on his Reaction test to avoid being hit; this gives Opponent 2 a total of 4 net hits. The DV for the Panther is 10P, modified by net hits to 14P, with an AP of -5; this gives Opponent 1 an effective Hardened Armor rating of 7. The Panther round hits, penetrates, and does damage.

Base damage at this point is 14P. Opponent 1’s armor is Hardened Armor, with a modified Armor Value of 7. Opponent 1 will roll 24 dice to reduce damage (17 Body, 7 for modified Hardened Armor value). He gets an automatic 4 hits for his modified Hardened Armor value, and then rolls his 24 dice. He gets an average roll of 8 hits. This is a total of 12 hits, reducing the damage to 2 boxes. On the other hand, Opponent 1 now notices Opponent 2, drops the motorcycle scraps, and turns his attention to his new favorite snack food.

Hilarity ensues.

[FuelDrop]

I really like that example.

Could we give 5th edition Juggernauts a minimum of 18 hardened armour (prefer 20 if possible) to keep players suitably scared?

[Surukai]

Problem is that automatic fire and some weapon combos obliterate just about anything anyway.

I buy a stock GMC crusader small drone (Arsenal), attach a supermach 100 (Arsenal) and load it with Stick'n'Shock (Corebook). I now have a <6k nuyen drone that can laugh at Juggernaughts.


Say he rolls 3 hits on his full auto burst. Opponent 1 rolls 2 hits on his defence. This results in a weapon that deals 6+1 net hit damage versus his halved armor 6, it exceeds the hardened armor and deals +11 damage more for full auto with Supermach100. He now has 17 body + 6 armor (halved from S'n'S) to resist 11+7 = 18 Stun. On average he is expected to roll 8 hits and takes 10 boxes of stun and is out cold unless he has amazing willpower, in that case you need to shoot again or just score one more hit (or he scores one less hit) on the attack. Two shots and the stun->Phys overflow makes the expensive Panther XXL that requires a special skill, is illegal, impossible to hide etc. feel quite pathetic (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)

6k nuyen gives you effectively F11 stunbolt but with no drain and you can have 2-3 of those drones for next to nothing.


Or, just fire a full auto burst with APDS from a regular Sam with 14+ attack pool. 17 body feels like nothing when automatic fire starts at 16-17 damage before net hits.

Good thing they removed the silly "inexcapable death autofire" from SR5. (Too bad they put it back again in the form of undodgeable grenades)

[binarywraith]

Your example starts off with 'load it with stick'n'shock', which points to the flaw in the argument. It is based on an inherently broken piece of gear that should never have been written as it is. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/nyahnyah.gif)

[Voran]

Seems like hardened armor qualities/immune to normal weapons haven't changed strength since 4e, but weapons have gone up by around 3-4 Ares IV 5p -1? Ares V 8p -1.

[Sengir]

Our scenario begins with Opponent 2 rounding a corner to find Opponent 1 eating his Harley Scorpion (and juggernauts are, you’ll remember, both big enough and stupid enough to do this). Taking exception to this monstrosity eating his ride
...
On the other hand, Opponent 1 now notices Opponent 2, drops the motorcycle scraps

Success after one shot!

[Draco18s]

Seems like hardened armor qualities/immune to normal weapons haven't changed strength since 4e, but weapons have gone up by around 3-4 Ares IV 5p -1? Ares V 8p -1.

They did, actually. Hardened armor now grants half its value (after AP) as automatic successes, in addition to its full value (after AP) as dice, for 150% more awesome.

Ironically because DV values went up by what amounts to the same amount (i.e. +3 auto damage reduction vs. +3 auto damage) the system as a whole is a wash.

Which is why at my (hypothetical) table, the auto-successes from Hardened Armor are not effected by AP. So the juggernaught would be getting 6 auto-hits against the Panther cannon...and SnS.

[Patrick Goodman]

Success after one shot!

Kinda depends on how you measure success....

[FuelDrop]

"Well we got his attention. What the hell was step 2?"

[Tymeaus Jalynsfe...]

They did, actually. Hardened armor now grants half its value (after AP) as automatic successes, in addition to its full value (after AP) as dice, for 150% more awesome.

Ironically because DV values went up by what amounts to the same amount (i.e. +3 auto damage reduction vs. +3 auto damage) the system as a whole is a wash.

Which is why at my (hypothetical) table, the auto-successes from Hardened Armor are not effected by AP. So the juggernaught would be getting 6 auto-hits against the Panther cannon...and SnS.

Definitely makes your Drake a bit tougher. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)

[Draco18s]

Definitely makes your Drake a bit tougher. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)

Not really. 4 modified by AP is still "none" most of the time. Even AP-1 reduces a drake to ~2 hits (+Body), which is an increase of 1 from SR4, compared to the +2 to +3 DV all guns got (so drakes fell behind).

[Tymeaus Jalynsfe...]

Not really. 4 modified by AP is still "none" most of the time. Even AP-1 reduces a drake to ~2 hits (+Body), which is an increase of 1 from SR4, compared to the +2 to +3 DV all guns got (so drakes fell behind).

The autohits are the kicker though... 3 auto hits per your comment above (vs. Standard Heavy Pistol) + Soak (3+Body) is not somehting to sneeze at. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)
But yes, that is true, damage went up... hmmmmmmmmmmmm.....

[Draco18s]

The autohits are the kicker though... 3 auto hits per your comment above (vs. Standard Heavy Pistol) + Soak (3+Body) is not somehting to sneeze at. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)
But yes, that is true, damage went up... hmmmmmmmmmmmm.....

4 hardened armor is TWO autohits with no AP involved. TWO.
It's still halved, I'm just not taking into account the AP before halving.

[WorkOver]

Problem is that automatic fire and some weapon combos obliterate just about anything anyway.

I buy a stock GMC crusader small drone (Arsenal), attach a supermach 100 (Arsenal) and load it with Stick'n'Shock (Corebook). I now have a <6k nuyen drone that can laugh at Juggernaughts.


Say he rolls 3 hits on his full auto burst. Opponent 1 rolls 2 hits on his defence. This results in a weapon that deals 6+1 net hit damage versus his halved armor 6, it exceeds the hardened armor and deals +11 damage more for full auto with Supermach100. He now has 17 body + 6 armor (halved from S'n'S) to resist 11+7 = 18 Stun. On average he is expected to roll 8 hits and takes 10 boxes of stun and is out cold unless he has amazing willpower, in that case you need to shoot again or just score one more hit (or he scores one less hit) on the attack. Two shots and the stun->Phys overflow makes the expensive Panther XXL that requires a special skill, is illegal, impossible to hide etc. feel quite pathetic (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)

6k nuyen gives you effectively F11 stunbolt but with no drain and you can have 2-3 of those drones for next to nothing.


Or, just fire a full auto burst with APDS from a regular Sam with 14+ attack pool. 17 body feels like nothing when automatic fire starts at 16-17 damage before net hits.

Good thing they removed the silly "inexcapable death autofire" from SR5. (Too bad they put it back again in the form of undodgeable grenades)

How did your sSupermach get +11 damage for full auto? Full auto no longer adds to damage. Stick and shock ammo doesn't halve armor, it is -5 AP, flat out, replaces the AP of the ammo you are using. It is also -2 to weapon power. If you raise the damage of the IS100 to 6p, for 5th edition, then it is now a 4p-5 weapon. At +2 successes, it's now 6p-5. That Juggy has 12 points of asrmor now, gets 6 auto successes, and laughs at your weapon.

Am I missing something? I don't see anywhere in the book that burst fire now adds to damage.

[Tymeaus Jalynsfe...]

4 hardened armor is TWO autohits with no AP involved. TWO.
It's still halved, I'm just not taking into account the AP before halving.

Ahhh... I misunderstood your position. Still, TWO Autosoak + Soak Roll is still pretty good. Better than it was in SR4A. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)

[Draco18s]

Ahhh... I misunderstood your position. Still, TWO Autosoak + Soak Roll is still pretty good. Better than it was in SR4A. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)

Against guns that got +3DV? Not really.

[Jaid]

Against guns that got +3DV? Not really.

those guns deal +3 DV to everyone, not just drakes.

[Draco18s]

those guns deal +3 DV to everyone, not just drakes.

And how about regular folks, did their armor values go up any?

[Sendaz]

"Well we got his attention. What the hell was step 2?"

Remember, you don't have to outrun the juggernaut.

You just have to outrun your buddy. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/wink.gif)

Leading it through a Humanis hangout also qualifies....

[Tymeaus Jalynsfe...]

And how about regular folks, did their armor values go up any?

Yes... Their armor values went up. Armor values increased across the board. Except maybe for Drakes (who may or may not be Special Snowflakes in SR5 - But probably not, sicne they are likely not Deckers), but they get autohits now due to Hardened Armor, so... *shrug*

[Draco18s]

Yes... Their armor values went up. Armor values increased across the board. Except maybe for Drakes (who may or may not be Special Snowflakes in SR5 - But probably not, sicne they are likely not Deckers), but they get autohits now due to Hardened Armor, so... *shrug*

So in other words:

Everyone got better, but drakes got better the least.

(An astounding 2 hits on their armor roll against anyone not using any kind of armor piercing, which is basically nobody).

[Tymeaus Jalynsfe...]

So in other words:

Everyone got better, but drakes got better the least.

(An astounding 2 hits on their armor roll against anyone not using any kind of armor piercing, which is basically nobody).

Heh... You sound Bitter... A Drake is better off than a Human not in Armor... Humans did not get better at all, nor did the other Metatypes. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)
And it is an Astounding 2 AUTOHITS + their Soak Roll (4 + Body) against non AP weapons, which ain't nothing. Assuming that Drake Armor does not get better in SR5, which it may well have. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/eek.gif)

[Sendaz]

(An astounding 2 hits on their armor roll against anyone not using any kind of armor piercing, which is basically nobody).

He does have a point, I think the kids on my block using their slingshots even have a -1AP or better on them. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/nyahnyah.gif)

But we do live in a rougher neighbourhood. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/wink.gif)

[Tymeaus Jalynsfe...]

He does have a point, I think the kids on my block using their slingshots even have a -1AP or better on them. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/nyahnyah.gif)

But we do live in a rougher neighbourhood. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/wink.gif)

But you live in a tough block... not all of us do. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)
EDIT: Looks like you were Ninja Editing (you have apparently found a new Master) and we had the same Idea. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/frown.gif)

[Draco18s]

Heh... You sound Bitter... A Drake is better off than a Human not in Armor... Humans did not get better at all, nor did the other Metatypes. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)
And it is an Astounding 2 AUTOHITS + their Soak Roll (4 + Body) against non AP weapons, which ain't nothing. Assuming that Drake Armor does not get better in SR5, which it may well have. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/eek.gif)

2 autohits that are modified by AP (IMG:style_emoticons/default/sarcastic.gif)
Followed by a low-par roll (4 armor is nothing, was nothing, will always be nothing)

(Though this brings up an interesting question: Flechettes. Does the +5 AP get added to the 4 armor, for 9, halved: 4 autohits? This seems a little silly)