I found and cleaned up the example I used to sell Hardened Armor for SR5. It made me chuckle, and considering how today's going, that's a good thing. I shall share it with you now.

= = = Here Be Example = = =

This example is using SR4 skills, skill levels, and gear, since we didn’t have the SR5 equivalents just yet, and besides, it was to sell the concept for SR5.

Opponent 1 is a juggernaut. For purposes of this example, he has a Body of 17, a Reaction of 5, and a Hardened Armor score of 12 (actual numbers will change when the critter is converted to SR5, but this will do for an example).

Opponent 2 is a street sam type with a Predator IV and a Panther XXL cannon. For purposes of this example, he has an agility of 4, a smartlink, a Pistols skill of 5, and a Heavy Weapons skill of 4.

For ease of reference, the relevant stats for a Predator IV are DV 5P and AP -1, while the Panther XXL has DV 10P and AP -5.

Our scenario begins with Opponent 2 rounding a corner to find Opponent 1 eating his Harley Scorpion (and juggernauts are, you’ll remember, both big enough and stupid enough to do this). Taking exception to this monstrosity eating his ride, Opponent 2 pulls his Predator IV from its holster, aims, and fires at Opponent 1. He has a total of 12 dice for this attack (4 Agility, 5 Pistols, smartlink, and he takes an Aim action). He gets 4 hits; Opponent 1 gets 1 hit for his Reaction to avoid being hit. This gives Opponent 2 a total of 3 net hits.

The Predator, intimidating as it might be to a humanoid opponent, has a DV of 5P; the net hits give him a modified DV of 8P. With its AP of -1, the effective Hardened Armor value of Opponent 1 is 11. This is greater than the weapon’s DV; the round strikes Opponent 1 solidly on its side and bounces off, much to the annoyance of Opponent 2. Opponent 1 does not notice this irritation and continues munching on the motorcycle.

Realizing his folly, Opponent 2 holsters the pistol and pulls the Panther off his back. This time he has 11 dice (4 Agility, 4 Heavy Weapons skill, smartlink, and the Aim action). Aiming the cannon, he braces and fires. He does nicely for himself, scoring 6 hits out of his 11 dice.

Opponent 1 rolls 2 hits on his Reaction test to avoid being hit; this gives Opponent 2 a total of 4 net hits. The DV for the Panther is 10P, modified by net hits to 14P, with an AP of -5; this gives Opponent 1 an effective Hardened Armor rating of 7. The Panther round hits, penetrates, and does damage.

Base damage at this point is 14P. Opponent 1’s armor is Hardened Armor, with a modified Armor Value of 7. Opponent 1 will roll 24 dice to reduce damage (17 Body, 7 for modified Hardened Armor value). He gets an automatic 4 hits for his modified Hardened Armor value, and then rolls his 24 dice. He gets an average roll of 8 hits. This is a total of 12 hits, reducing the damage to 2 boxes. On the other hand, Opponent 1 now notices Opponent 2, drops the motorcycle scraps, and turns his attention to his new favorite snack food.

Hilarity ensues.

I really like that example.

Could we give 5th edition Juggernauts a minimum of 18 hardened armour (prefer 20 if possible) to keep players suitably scared?

Problem is that automatic fire and some weapon combos obliterate just about anything anyway.

I buy a stock GMC crusader small drone (Arsenal), attach a supermach 100 (Arsenal) and load it with Stick'n'Shock (Corebook). I now have a <6k nuyen drone that can laugh at Juggernaughts.


Say he rolls 3 hits on his full auto burst. Opponent 1 rolls 2 hits on his defence. This results in a weapon that deals 6+1 net hit damage versus his halved armor 6, it exceeds the hardened armor and deals +11 damage more for full auto with Supermach100. He now has 17 body + 6 armor (halved from S'n'S) to resist 11+7 = 18 Stun. On average he is expected to roll 8 hits and takes 10 boxes of stun and is out cold unless he has amazing willpower, in that case you need to shoot again or just score one more hit (or he scores one less hit) on the attack. Two shots and the stun->Phys overflow makes the expensive Panther XXL that requires a special skill, is illegal, impossible to hide etc. feel quite pathetic

6k nuyen gives you effectively F11 stunbolt but with no drain and you can have 2-3 of those drones for next to nothing.


Or, just fire a full auto burst with APDS from a regular Sam with 14+ attack pool. 17 body feels like nothing when automatic fire starts at 16-17 damage before net hits.

Good thing they removed the silly "inexcapable death autofire" from SR5. (Too bad they put it back again in the form of undodgeable grenades)

Your example starts off with 'load it with stick'n'shock', which points to the flaw in the argument. It is based on an inherently broken piece of gear that should never have been written as it is.

Seems like hardened armor qualities/immune to normal weapons haven't changed strength since 4e, but weapons have gone up by around 3-4 Ares IV 5p -1? Ares V 8p -1.

Success after one shot!

They did, actually. Hardened armor now grants half its value (after AP) as automatic successes, in addition to its full value (after AP) as dice, for 150% more awesome.

Ironically because DV values went up by what amounts to the same amount (i.e. +3 auto damage reduction vs. +3 auto damage) the system as a whole is a wash.

Which is why at my (hypothetical) table, the auto-successes from Hardened Armor are not effected by AP. So the juggernaught would be getting 6 auto-hits against the Panther cannon...and SnS.

Kinda depends on how you measure success....

"Well we got his attention. What the hell was step 2?"

Definitely makes your Drake a bit tougher.

Not really. 4 modified by AP is still "none" most of the time. Even AP-1 reduces a drake to ~2 hits (+Body), which is an increase of 1 from SR4, compared to the +2 to +3 DV all guns got (so drakes fell behind).

The autohits are the kicker though... 3 auto hits per your comment above (vs. Standard Heavy Pistol) + Soak (3+Body) is not somehting to sneeze at.
But yes, that is true, damage went up... hmmmmmmmmmmmm.....

4 hardened armor is TWO autohits with no AP involved. TWO.
It's still halved, I'm just not taking into account the AP before halving.

How did your sSupermach get +11 damage for full auto? Full auto no longer adds to damage. Stick and shock ammo doesn't halve armor, it is -5 AP, flat out, replaces the AP of the ammo you are using. It is also -2 to weapon power. If you raise the damage of the IS100 to 6p, for 5th edition, then it is now a 4p-5 weapon. At +2 successes, it's now 6p-5. That Juggy has 12 points of asrmor now, gets 6 auto successes, and laughs at your weapon.

Am I missing something? I don't see anywhere in the book that burst fire now adds to damage.

Ahhh... I misunderstood your position. Still, TWO Autosoak + Soak Roll is still pretty good. Better than it was in SR4A.

Against guns that got +3DV? Not really.

those guns deal +3 DV to everyone, not just drakes.

And how about regular folks, did their armor values go up any?

Remember, you don't have to outrun the juggernaut.

You just have to outrun your buddy.

Leading it through a Humanis hangout also qualifies....

Yes... Their armor values went up. Armor values increased across the board. Except maybe for Drakes (who may or may not be Special Snowflakes in SR5 - But probably not, sicne they are likely not Deckers), but they get autohits now due to Hardened Armor, so... *shrug*

So in other words:

Everyone got better, but drakes got better the least.

(An astounding 2 hits on their armor roll against anyone not using any kind of armor piercing, which is basically nobody).

Heh... You sound Bitter... A Drake is better off than a Human not in Armor... Humans did not get better at all, nor did the other Metatypes.
And it is an Astounding 2 AUTOHITS + their Soak Roll (4 + Body) against non AP weapons, which ain't nothing. Assuming that Drake Armor does not get better in SR5, which it may well have.

He does have a point, I think the kids on my block using their slingshots even have a -1AP or better on them.

But we do live in a rougher neighbourhood.

But you live in a tough block... not all of us do.
EDIT: Looks like you were Ninja Editing (you have apparently found a new Master) and we had the same Idea.

2 autohits that are modified by AP
Followed by a low-par roll (4 armor is nothing, was nothing, will always be nothing)

(Though this brings up an interesting question: Flechettes. Does the +5 AP get added to the 4 armor, for 9, halved: 4 autohits? This seems a little silly)

Let's see...
Step one-get attention
Step two-
Step three-profit

Mr. Sam did not like the juggernaut munching on his bike, it stopped doing that. Anything beyond that wasn't part of the deal

Too bad vehicles don't have hardened armor as vehicles have a lot less vulnerable points than a critter. You can shoot my car to hell and it will keep on driving like nothing happened if you didn't hit the engine block, gas tank or tires, undercarriage. Over 50% of its mass is just casing which can be riddled to virtually no ill effect to the vehicle performance.(yeah the stereo may get destroyed or the aerodynamics may get worse etc, but it will still drive fine.) The same can't be said for a critter even if you are shot in the foot it causes problems. While hardened armor may have been a problem in 4e in how it worked, vehicle armor was much worse and virtually nothing was done for it.

double post of like hearing your own voice goodness.

Vehicles are still immune to stun and get LOTS of armor. So with the exception of anti-vehicular weapons they should only be taking (and then ignoring) stun from shots.

On a side note, the Juggie is listed as detecting electrical fields under it's motion detection, so one does wonder how it reacts to some devices with a stronger Signal strength.

Would it haze it's senses or be a big neon sign saying X marks the spot!

Would a TM 'smell' like a truffle to it?

Great, yet another reason not to play a technomancer.

Not like you run into Juggernauts inside a megaplex. What sane TM leaves the Megaplex?

TMs are sane?

Why not? that's where all the food is.

Well it's not like a Juggie can sneak into town, so local forces would be meeting it even before it gets close to the borders and they will bring out the big guns with decent AP, like anti tank weaponry.

Though I suppose there could be some parts of the Barrens it might pass unnoticed for a bit and the OP did mention it being just around a corner somewhere.

THAT would make your players think twice about that street lifestyle!

Juggernaut rummaging around Redmond Barrens, going unnoticed until some pissed-off trog heavy shoots it with a Panther XXL to make it stop eating his bike, then takes off like a jackrabbit, kiting the thing into tourist town and straight through a Humanis chapterhouse, letting it go to town before Knight Errant can actually break out the heavy attack choppers to put it down for good?

That's the kind of pink mohawkery that needs to happen.

I would watch that on pay per view

50 nuyen says someone baited the thing there and set up camera drones specifically to capture the footage and sell it on PPV.

It reminds me of that traveler game where I loaned those PGMPs to the warring TL1 tribes...

I hope you were recording those exchanges from orbit! Bwhahahahaaaah!

Of course. I made a TON on PPV and am now wanted in about 5 systems

Well..... yeah, probably not...

Only wanted, and only in about five?

You haven't hit the big time until you've been tried and found guilty in absentia and sentenced to death in at least a dozen.

Still, it's a worthy start! Keep at it.

Yeah... But can you actually name the guy with the Death Sentence in 12 Systems? And really, in the end, he was just an Architect slumming in the bars of Mos Eisley with his friend.

Well there was the time we stole nukes from a red zone interdiction planet...

They also need this as a scenario in Shadowrun Returns as it's own special mission, maybe even let you hotwire a tank at the end to take it on.

Panda Baba.



That sounds like a good story, too.

We ran into Daleks. Yes, that really happened. And it was awesome.

Dr. Evazan was the one who actually said the quote... Pando Baba just grunted and howled.