Wireless, Poll: Why don't you really like it? Options

[Tymeaus Jalynsfe...]

Hacking in the real world is incredibly boring, though.

This is so very, very true...

It's fantastical by its nature. SR4 divested itself of the classic 80's and 90's "data cowboy" conceit that underpinned the very idea of the Shadowrun Matrix, which is why I think the SR4 crowd is having a hard time with the interpretive dance (literally the metaphor-oriented approach) of the SR5 Matrix.

Not having a hard time with it, I just don't like a lot of it. There is a difference there. Of course, I did not like the Matrix in SR's 1-3 all that much either, so...

Also, you can't use starting characters as the measuring stick for threats here, since starting characters tend to be better than the threats they face. A Professional Rating 2 or 3 decker (basic corpsec or police) should probably have a dice pool of about 7 or 8, with a device rating 1 or 2 cyberdeck. They shouldn't be riding the same part of the curve as the PCs. At that level you're looking at even odds to beat a DR4 commlink, with a DR5+ commlink being a fairly tough nut. Where this idea that there are going to be dozens of security deckers all with 350,000 nuyen decks and 16 dice roaming around one-shotting all the ware they see came from, I'll never guess.

Because Characters don't tend to go up against the stupid stuff. They go into Corporate R&D Systems lokking for the multi-million (billion) Nuyen paydata where the opposition SHOULD be throwing 16 Dice with DR 5+ Cyberdecks. At that point, opposing them with a Security Decker that is throwing 7 Dice on a DR2 Deck is ludiocrous.

[binarywraith]

SR5 has mostly unfucked it, despite the various opinions on wireless bonuses. The grid/host setup is a pretty good updated take on the SR3 Matrix, just with most of the timekillers removed and the ability to jack in from anywhere.

SR4's biggest problem was making it so there was The Matrix (which was woefully underdescribed/useless) and The Nodes (which weren't really part of the Matrix).

Yeah, with the wireless 'bonuses' stripped out, SR5's seems pretty playable and somewhat reasonable.

Even for someone like me who would prefer all technomancers swallowed their own tongues and died in the night. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/biggrin.gif)

[RHat]

Admin CAN access the Files (Read Only). They have no need to edit them, however. *shrug*

Point of order: Were that the case, the log file could not be generated.

[Tymeaus Jalynsfe...]

Point of order: Were that the case, the log file could not be generated.

Incorrect my good man.
Have you never heard of being able to add to a Log File but not remove anything from said Log File, not even the Admin Boys. Many businesses (that rely upon an unbroken log of events) are set up so that they function this way.

[Remnar]

Even for someone like me who would prefer all technomancers swallowed their own tongues and died in the night. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/biggrin.gif)

Seconded!

Although, I kinda liked the crazy/unknown mysterious kid Otaku that you coulndn't play and weren't really defined. And Deus.

But once they became a real 'thing' I really didn't care for 'matrix mages'.

[Tymeaus Jalynsfe...]

Seconded!

Although, I kinda liked the crazy/unknown mysterious kid Otaku that you coulndn't play and weren't really defined. And Deus.

But once they became a real 'thing' I really didn't care for 'matrix mages'.

Maybe that was a result of how you perceived them? I never saw them as Matrix Mages, personally, even if they do use many of the same mechanics.

[Jaid]

not only should the tough systems be guarded by highly skilled and well-equipped hackers, but the simple fact is that with a simple direct connection, a hacker can hack from anywhere on the planet with no noise penalties. which means you can have a security building in the middle of a country or continent loaded up with skilled deckers and their equipment that, with the flip of a switch, can connect to any number of important secure facilities (for security reasons, i would expect that they don't have all facilities connected to the same terminals at the same time... in fact, i would expect those terminals to only be able to connect to one facility at a time).

in short, you can take your 10 best deckers, put them in a centralized location, and have them on-call to go wreck people in any one of hundreds of possible locations at a moment's notice. if they happen to be logged in and waiting, the amount of time between an alarm going off and several expert security deckers being in the host could be less than 5 seconds.

you can't do that with physical adepts. you can't even do that with conjured spirits for the most part (and at least those conjured spirits will generally have to put themselves into a location where you theoretically could harm them before they can harm you; security deckers only ever really have to worry about the team's decker).

in short, it's entirely possible that various security corps (and especially the megas) have a crack team of extremely skilled deckers just waiting to show up on site and wreck anyone stupid enough to have wireless-enabled devices running, because those deckers could be covering hundreds of locations at the same time. no, they aren't going to have 10 prime runner equivalent deckers sitting around in every host, just like a corp facility won't have HTR teams at every security checkpoint. but a security guard could call in an HTR team, and a regular decker could call in the crack team of super-deckers... except the regular decker only has to wait a few seconds before reinforcements start showing up.

[RHat]

Incorrect my good man.
Have you never heard of being able to add to a Log File but not remove anything from said Log File, not even the Admin Boys. Many businesses (that rely upon an unbroken log of events) are set up so that they function this way.

You'd have to have something that doesn't have any sort of an edit function to allow for updates to an existing log as data becomes available, and an infinite size (otherwise you could just push on every single element other than the ones you want to remove, and the others would fall off). If there's any sort of editing functionality, the super-user by definition must be able to access it.

Remember that SR4's admin is not a configured admin, but super-user privileges - if it is possible, they can do it.

[Remnar]

Maybe that was a result of how you perceived them? I never saw them as Matrix Mages, personally, even if they do use many of the same mechanics.

Very likely, regardless I don't like em. Personal opinion and all that.

[Wounded Ronin]

......and don't even get me started on nested nodes. Want to have your security system invulnerable? Just stick it 5 nodes deep! No way a hacker is getting to that before they start tripping alarms...........

In all honesty the only hacking system that made any sense prior to 5th ed was when hacking was virtual dungeon (a bit like in Shadowrun Returns). What edition was that again? 1st maybe?

I think 2nd had the virtual dungeon.

[Tymeaus Jalynsfe...]

You'd have to have something that doesn't have any sort of an edit function to allow for updates to an existing log as data becomes available, and an infinite size (otherwise you could just push on every single element other than the ones you want to remove, and the others would fall off). If there's any sort of editing functionality, the super-user by definition must be able to access it.

Yes...

Remember that SR4's admin is not a configured admin, but super-user privileges - if it is possible, they can do it.

Wrong... You can remove access even from Admin... See Unwired.

[RHat]

Yes...



Wrong... You can remove access even from Admin... See Unwired.

Of course, all of that is for naught if you can directly edit the memory or contents thereof. Ans as for removing access from admin, I've seen nothing in Unwired to indicated it.

[Trismegistus]

How easy is it to brick a device? I'm still in my initial readthrough of the PPF, so I'd like to know what to anticipate during our test plays.

[Epicedion]

not only should the tough systems be guarded by highly skilled and well-equipped hackers, but the simple fact is that with a simple direct connection, a hacker can hack from anywhere on the planet with no noise penalties. which means you can have a security building in the middle of a country or continent loaded up with skilled deckers and their equipment that, with the flip of a switch, can connect to any number of important secure facilities (for security reasons, i would expect that they don't have all facilities connected to the same terminals at the same time... in fact, i would expect those terminals to only be able to connect to one facility at a time).

Tough systems, sure. But runners don't raid Ares corporate hosts every day.

in short, you can take your 10 best deckers, put them in a centralized location, and have them on-call to go wreck people in any one of hundreds of possible locations at a moment's notice. if they happen to be logged in and waiting, the amount of time between an alarm going off and several expert security deckers being in the host could be less than 5 seconds.

This is one way of doing things, but every site doesn't warrant full coverage. Also, with hundreds of sites to cover at once, you've got to expect that other sites will occasionally draw off these resources. Further, every tripped alarm can't summon the cavalry. There would need to be some sort of on-site analysis done to determine if a threat is real, faked, or what (otherwise, the easiest way to compromise a site's security would be to hit a ton of different sites at once to mask what the real target is).

The best security would involve an "on-site" (not necessarily in the building, but in the area) decker that can make that analysis and handle light threats, with the ability to kick major breaches up to the Matrix equivalent of an HTR team.

[Dolanar]

Correct, however, every tripped alarm will let a Decker know to Release the swarms of IC into the system to defend it, then look in on it later to see if the person has been dealt with or not, also...might as well trigger the silent alarm alerting the physical security.

[Epicedion]

Correct, however, every tripped alarm will let a Decker know to Release the swarms of IC into the system to defend it, then look in on it later to see if the person has been dealt with or not, also...might as well trigger the silent alarm alerting the physical security.

A host automatically launches IC anyway. A decker showing up is usually Plan B. Decker swarm is somewhere about Plan D.

Also, why trigger the physical alarm? The hacker could be anywhere on the planet. Again, that would be a great way to throw security into chaos -- you trip alarms on several hosts, causing physical security at the relevant sites to go on alert everywhere which without a verified threat inevitably leads to confusing or incorrect assessments on the ground, which in turn leads to mis-applied HTR teams.

Also, hosts aren't necessarily tied to a physical location. One host could handle multiple sites hundreds or thousands of miles apart.

[Dolanar]

except that there has to be a reliable method to access the alarms for any given facility in a host, otherwise, you're relying on the physical security to trip their own alarms, which IMO seems a bit silly.

[Jaid]

Tough systems, sure. But runners don't raid Ares corporate hosts every day.



This is one way of doing things, but every site doesn't warrant full coverage. Also, with hundreds of sites to cover at once, you've got to expect that other sites will occasionally draw off these resources. Further, every tripped alarm can't summon the cavalry. There would need to be some sort of on-site analysis done to determine if a threat is real, faked, or what (otherwise, the easiest way to compromise a site's security would be to hit a ton of different sites at once to mask what the real target is).

The best security would involve an "on-site" (not necessarily in the building, but in the area) decker that can make that analysis and handle light threats, with the ability to kick major breaches up to the Matrix equivalent of an HTR team.

sure, i'm not suggesting that you replace the on-site (and probably less skilled) hacker, or that the matrix HTR team responds to every single problem. i'm just pointing out that it is not hard to set things up so that you can call in some very scary cavalry, and that said cavalry can arrive in potentially a couple of seconds. and these people can immediately start wrecking the gear of anyone foolish enough to be online when they arrive.

that said, i *do* think it would be available to many companies. not every security company will be able to offer a team of hacking adepts with maxed-out skills and attributes boosted as high as they can go (in fact, while a mega probably *could* manage something that, they probably have better things for those guys to do than sit around waiting for an emergency, so even they most likely don't do it), but pretty much every security company can offer something similar in concept if lesser in scale. and you can bet those ares matrix HTR teams are available to knight errant, as well, and knight errant offers security for anyone, not just as a police force. even other security companies can reasonably expect to offer *something* (even if it's just a half a dozen guys with rating 3 decks showing up to brick every wireless DR 2 or lower device the intruders have, it's still a powerful option against anyone who hasn't shut down their wireless or at the very least significantly boosted their defences).

[Epicedion]

except that there has to be a reliable method to access the alarms for any given facility in a host, otherwise, you're relying on the physical security to trip their own alarms, which IMO seems a bit silly.

Your prior suggestion was that a matrix attack in a host should trip a physical alarm at a site. Whether or not sites access their alarms on a host is sort of irrelevant to that from a Matrix security standpoint.

sure, i'm not suggesting that you replace the on-site (and probably less skilled) hacker, or that the matrix HTR team responds to every single problem. i'm just pointing out that it is not hard to set things up so that you can call in some very scary cavalry, and that said cavalry can arrive in potentially a couple of seconds. and these people can immediately start wrecking the gear of anyone foolish enough to be online when they arrive.

that said, i *do* think it would be available to many companies. not every security company will be able to offer a team of hacking adepts with maxed-out skills and attributes boosted as high as they can go (in fact, while a mega probably *could* manage something that, they probably have better things for those guys to do than sit around waiting for an emergency, so even they most likely don't do it), but pretty much every security company can offer something similar in concept if lesser in scale. and you can bet those ares matrix HTR teams are available to knight errant, as well, and knight errant offers security for anyone, not just as a police force. even other security companies can reasonably expect to offer *something* (even if it's just a half a dozen guys with rating 3 decks showing up to brick every wireless DR 2 or lower device the intruders have, it's still a powerful option against anyone who hasn't shut down their wireless or at the very least significantly boosted their defences).

Gear attacks are something entirely different from Matrix host defense. A team of deckers in a comfortable office in New York can zip over to a host on the Seattle grid and act as the Matrix cavalry as if they were sitting in the host's mainframe room, but they can't just as easily zip over to the site and start wrecking gear. Those devices that are wirelessly connected to the Matrix, no matter where they are physically, aren't going to be inside the host. That means the room-o-deckers has to

1) Find the targets with Matrix Perception, and

2) Fight through distance noise and cross-grid penalties.

So your team of uber-deckers will probably be taking at least -7 penalties (-5 from noise with a satellite link, -2 cross-grid) on all their actions. To do any better, they'd need to be within about 6 miles of the target site.

[Chinane]

So your team of uber-deckers will probably be taking at least -7 penalties (-5 from noise with a satellite link, -2 cross-grid) on all their actions. To do any better, they'd need to be within about 6 miles of the target site.

Did you forget he postulated in his first scenario sketch, that the matrix HTR team will have zero noise connections to all their relevant locations? Forget satellite links, these guys have their dedicated lines.

[mister__joshua]

Did you forget he postulated in his first scenario sketch, that the matrix HTR team will have zero noise connections to all their relevant locations? Forget satellite links, these guys have their dedicated lines.

Yeah, but I'm pretty sure what Epicedion is saying is that it doesn't matter if they have dedicated lines to their locations as the gear you're looking at bricking (the sam's gun, the rigger's rcc etc) aren't at that location. They'll be in that physical location, but unless the hacker is also in that physical location then they can't hack by direct connect. When a PC hacker accesses the host they're trying to breach, that doesn't mean all the other PCs have their gear hooked up to the host. They're probably just on the local grid, which meant matrix perception to locate them.

I suppose (just thinking this through) that IF the decker had the other PCs devices slaved to his deck (protecting them) then a security hacker could mark his deck and access the devices that way without penalty, maybe???

[Fatum]

I love the idea of hackers hacking gear and implants, but I hate that the new edition forces this upon you. So if logical inconsistencies are fixed, it's going to be a lot harder, if a viable tactic at all.

[Lobo0705]

Yeah, but I'm pretty sure what Epicedion is saying is that it doesn't matter if they have dedicated lines to their locations as the gear you're looking at bricking (the sam's gun, the rigger's rcc etc) aren't at that location. They'll be in that physical location, but unless the hacker is also in that physical location then they can't hack by direct connect. When a PC hacker accesses the host they're trying to breach, that doesn't mean all the other PCs have their gear hooked up to the host. They're probably just on the local grid, which meant matrix perception to locate them.

I suppose (just thinking this through) that IF the decker had the other PCs devices slaved to his deck (protecting them) then a security hacker could mark his deck and access the devices that way without penalty, maybe???

The way they have the rules set up for hosts, your persona is either "in" or "out" of the host. You get a mark on it (legally or illegally) and then perform the "Enter Host" matrix action. Once you are inside the host, your persona is no longer visible from outside the host, and any matrix icons outside the host are no longer visible. You cannot interact with them, they cannot interact with you - except that a decker whose persona is inside the host could still send messages to his buddies outside.

So, while your team of deckers in New York could access a host of a building in Shanghai, and have no noise penalty at all, and proceed to attack the persona icon of any shadowrunner decker who has also gained access to the host, if they wanted to brick the gun of a samurai who was physically in Shanghai, they have to deal with the noise penalties (and also have to find the gun's icon with Matrix Perception).

"The virtual space inside a host is separate from the
outside grid. When you’re outside of a host, you can’t interact
directly with icons inside it, although you can still
send messages, make commcalls, and that sort of thing.
Once you’re inside, you can see and interact with icons
inside the host, but not outside (with the same caveat for
messages, calls, etc.).
When you enter a host, your persona actually enters
the host icon. This can be through a door or other portal,
but some hosts let you just pass through its outer skin."

[shonen_mask]

Except they're entirely different from account privileges, since marks are actually well-defined and useful. 'Account privileges' were obviously designed by someone whose sole experience in the matter was watching half of TRON.

Marks make some sense but the core rules only apply them In the most basic potential. What if a the character was on a host they owned, slaved to it or just 'in' the host.
That might imply a higher level of marks on/by devices they owned including the host...

As far as bricking What else can you do? SR4 had every device a potential target of matrix theft by a high skilled hacker. The combination of OS sores and bricking attacks makes Matrix usership sane while still allowing for information retrieval...

[mister__joshua]

The way they have the rules set up for hosts, your persona is either "in" or "out" of the host. You get a mark on it (legally or illegally) and then perform the "Enter Host" matrix action. Once you are inside the host, your persona is no longer visible from outside the host, and any matrix icons outside the host are no longer visible. You cannot interact with them, they cannot interact with you - except that a decker whose persona is inside the host could still send messages to his buddies outside.

So, while your team of deckers in New York could access a host of a building in Shanghai, and have no noise penalty at all, and proceed to attack the persona icon of any shadowrunner decker who has also gained access to the host, if they wanted to brick the gun of a samurai who was physically in Shanghai, they have to deal with the noise penalties (and also have to find the gun's icon with Matrix Perception).

"The virtual space inside a host is separate from the
outside grid. When you’re outside of a host, you can’t interact
directly with icons inside it, although you can still
send messages, make commcalls, and that sort of thing.
Once you’re inside, you can see and interact with icons
inside the host, but not outside (with the same caveat for
messages, calls, etc.).
When you enter a host, your persona actually enters
the host icon. This can be through a door or other portal,
but some hosts let you just pass through its outer skin."

I think you said the same thing as me, but better and easier to understand (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)

Are you saying that I'm incorrect on that last bit? I wasn't sure about that.