This is to just gauge the feeling on Dumpshock about the wireless issue. We can argue the points forever but if the issue about concept rather than mechanics then that's useful for moving forward.

...I feel as though this is a loaded question in this community

You know, as much as I can follow the idea of having a hacker being able to hack someone's cyberware, and though I can see that maintenance of some types of 'ware might be easier to perform, if you have wireless connectivity on the 'ware, I have to admit that I have a problem with the concept in general. In a world where hacking through encryption and firewalls take only seconds, no matter the level of protection we are talking about, having limbs, organs, and other important parts of people's anatomy be possible to hack and shut down, just doesn't sit right with me. I can follow why your average Joe Blow with a regular job might be willing to have his artificial arm and leg be set up for wireless connectivity, seeing as the odds of anyone ever hacking them are probably worse than an astroid falling on his head while he's having breakfast. But for people in professions where their lives are on the line, and where they regularly face off against opponents who have the ability and the will to attack and disable their cyberware at a critical moment, for those type of people there simply isn't any valid reason for accepting such a risk, unless there is absolutely no other way around it. And in this case, there is no valid reason why connections between cyberware and the hostbody can't be made using internal wireconnections, and why service/maintenance can't be kept easy with the addition of an external dataport that can be connected to with a cable connection.
If hackers were one-in-a-billion, then maybe. If safe encryption existed, or if breaking it at least took some hours, rather than seconds, then maybe. But the way the world of Shadowrun is described today, having your gear bricked is simply too easy for it so make sense to run the risk as a Runner or similar combat/security professional.

That being said, I would STRONGLY support changing the descriptions of "bricking" to reflect what it actually means within the rules. But I would prefer to keep the option to hack cyberware as they were in 4a, meaning avoidable by professionals.

In my mind there is a difference in bricking gear and bricking cyberware. Cyberware should not be able to be bricked at all. Hell, I can't really see a reason for cyberware to be online other than a commlink.

2 main reasons:

1) i feel that some of the specific bonuses are completely nonsensical, and completely defy logic. the matrix is not a deity that grants you your wishes when you turn a device online. bonuses should reflect that. being able to use the wireless matrix to communicate with unlimited range on your subvocal mic? no problem. being able to use the matrix to activate a device on your person faster than you could by not using the matrix? eh.... no thanks.

2) i feel that, as has been pointed out above, people in a security-conscious field would not be willing to take the risk of having their gear online, and gear designed to be used exclusively by those individuals should be designed to function offline.

i'm not opposed to the idea of wireless bonuses. i'm opposed to the implementation.

I'm with Jaid. That, and the addition that the implementation being something that was to give deckers/hackers something to do in combat...


Pssssht... Like they didn't already have stuff to do in combat.

Honestly, I don't mind there being a wireless Matrix.

I do mind connecting things that have absolutely no reason to be connected to the Matrix to it, and the whole 'bricking' concept is both unnecessary and so absurdly poorly developed in the rules as written as to be a joke.

Seriously, it's two paragraphs of fluff that doesn't actually go into any detail at all, and manages to somehow have contradicting fluff and mechanics in a bit of rules shorter than the blurb on a cereal box.

As Jaid and Spellbinder said, there's no reason wireless bonuses couldn't be good... if they were implemented well. Which they are manifestly not.

The new wireless rules make Rystefn sad. So much potential for awesome, and to fall so dramatically short like that... it's heartbreaking. I am pro hacking cyberware if it's online, but if you don't give a compelling reason for it to be online, it's not going to be. That reason should make some kind of sense, too. Yes, that means some ware will never be online. No, there's nothing wrong with that. I can think of all kinds of information I might want in my field of view from other locations. If I know someone could send me wrong information and screw me over that way, then I have to ask how badly I want that information. This is good. I can't think of any reason I'd want outside information getting to my cyberleg, so I leave it off. Or have wireless capability removed at the hardware level. That's fine, too. What we got instead are a pile of bonuses that don't come close to being worth the risk, don't make any sense, or both. That's bad.

None of the options quite describe my opinion. Wireless bonuses are fine, but the implementation sucks. The bonuses make no sense, and quite often equate to "be hackable or be gimped". Bricking is also poorly implemented. I could see messing up software, but permanently damaging hardware - I don't see how that would work.

Wireless should make sense. I wish they had expanded the rules for tacnets and sensors, and made those hackable. That would have made a lot more sense. Drones, I could see too, if they are being remotely controlled. Security systems, also. But saying that your wired reflexes and reaction enhancers don't work together unless they are online, and that a hacker can permanently damage them by hacking them if they are online, makes absolutely no sense.

I'd also like to add that wired should work just as well as wireless in some circumstances. If Reaction Enhancers and Wired Reflexes are only communicating with each other wirelessly, then running a wire between the two should work just as well.

Better, actually. A wire would have more bandwidth and be immune to signal degradation via noise.

I figure the reason the reaction enhancers/wired reflexes is like that is a cost saving measure, they just build them one way and do it for the least amount of money. Well it's as close to an in character explanation i can come up with at least. I like the idea of hacking gear but they really don't do a good enough explanation of bricking and they could have come up with better bonuses. The charging while wifi is enabled is one that really bothers me for some reason. Induction charging should not require a matrix connection.

Hey now, going down that road will make people wonder why that isn't done by default since they are pretty much installed in the same areas...

I never was on board with any of the wireless hacking of gear or ware except for things like spamming AR or hacking vid feeds. Anything else shouldn't really be opened up for hacking attack by anyone with half a brain, why add complexity for complexity's sake (especially when it makes absolutely no fraggin' sense).

Also, why can't I still have my implanted induction pads? I miss those.

You can, they're just classed as 'Throwback' gear, and don't get wireless bonuses.

If the bonuses made sense in any way, you could make a case for them just lacking new and improved features, but alas that wasn't what got published.

Can't vote in the pole. False presumptions, possibly trolling.

I think Bricking as written (broken, sparking, smoking, etc) is junk.

Make said device crashed instead of broken, require a simple or complex action to reboot it.

Reboot time is 2D6 - DR(min 1) combat turns and the device or cyberware returns to functionality.

Now we don't have to deal with Wired reflexes shorting out along your spinal column, or your encephalon frying your brain.

Accidentally null voted.
I wanted to chose the second option (Yes, if it's logical and consistent then brick away!).

Bricking is less interesting to me than combat hacking in general, though. I like the general idea of hackers making commlink contacts or display glasses show weird stuff and the like.

That's something I've always seen/done with hackers and TMs in fourth myself. Listen, daisy-chain all you like, but corpsec and the Joe Wageslave you've marked for grabbing biometrics to break into a secured facility don't have that sort of security awareness. And you know how everyone relies on AR and GPS? I fuck with that shit all the time.

Bricking a device is cool, sure, but what's cooler is a bunch of agents/sprites playing havoc with someone's - or a group of someones- image link. "But it's not Matrix-enabled!" they say. "But it is slaved to their link - if you can't hack a corpsec or even HTR link, you're a shit hacker and why did we hire you for this run anyway?" Now, if SR5 gave more options for doing that, instead of clumsily shoe-horning in a fucking direct damage subsystem for hackers and breaking fifty things in the process - I might have actually liked SR5. But it didn't, so.

But you can still do all those things in SR5 with the mark system. Without any of the bullshit ambiguity of account management.

^ This.

I like the concept of the Wireless Bonus and that it gives hackers a glowing red becon to "shoot" at, but at the same time I've always been firm that hacking is the least efficient way for the hacker to mess someone up (which is why it's ok to have the wireless functionality enabled: there are so many faster ways to be taken out of the picture).

But largely speaking my issue with SR5's wireless is that the bonuses make no fucking sense and some devices don't even perform in the situation in which they'd be used (e.g. satellite ulink, internal air tank).

I'm fine with wireless as presented in 5E. No issues here.

Marks are no different than Account Priveleges. You need 0 to 4 Marks... Which lines up with Guest to Root Superuser... Need 3 Mark? Looks Like Admin to Me. How about 2 Marks? That would be Security Access. I know, lets go for 4 Marks... well, That is Root Superuser. Marks are no different than Priveleges. *shrug*

Okay, so what can a security account do? Admin? Is every corporate node locked down so that only admin can access the sensitive pay data you need? The rules were never clear about this, other than the fact that there were different account privileges. Now they have a clear ruling on what each level does with the mark system. This is an improvement.

Except they're entirely different from account privileges, since marks are actually well-defined and useful. 'Account privileges' were obviously designed by someone whose sole experience in the matter was watching half of TRON.

yes, but one could take the Marks idea & swap it over & use those "well defined & useful" rules & use them just as well for the Account privs.

We did already have bricking without stupid wireless boni, did anyone use it in 4th? It was a dumb idea nobody liked, shoving it down our throats even harder is certainly not the answer to that...

Bonuses.

No one used it in 4th because they made it impossible to use. Extended test to find target node, extended test to get access to target node, dealing with any security in the target node, then finally getting to do something -- you're probably talking 10-15 actions just to do something as simple as turning off someone's comms. This was made worse by skinlinks, which made anything worth hacking virtually unhackable anyway, for cheap.

So this was pretty useless except in the context of a Decker Session, or at the very least made the rest of the table sit on their hands for a couple dozen back-and-forth dice rolls before anyone would see any meaningful effect.

You may have not liked it, but the reason no one used it was that it was an awful and arcane implementation that resulted directly from the incomprehensible mess that was the SR4 Matrix rules.

Cripes, SR3's ACIFS hacking took less time and fewer rolls.

It was flexible and fluid, as it should be. Never had any problem with Access Rights. *shrug*

Don't know about you other guys, but I never had a hacker go for anything less than Administrator level when breaking into a node in the first place. Falls into the "Go big or go home" line of action.

I go User about 30% of the time, Security about 45% of the Time and Admin about 25% of the time. Right access for the right job.
Our Technomancer would go Admin about 80% and Security 20%.

TJ Fallacy.



How do you go about erasing the logfiles for that stuff you do on the user account?

probably the exact same way. possibly using the hacking skill instead of the computer skill, depending on whether the system is set up with the assumption that deleting or altering the log files is something the admin should be able to do (which i rather suspect is often not the case).

or when he goes user he just does actions that would be expected to be done on a user account.

Log files should require admin access, always. It makes no sense that a user level account can edit logs.



Someone hasn't played Slave Hack recently.
(Hint: You know what logs also contain? Your IP address, or its equivalent in ShadowRun)

It is indeed not often the case... There is no need for Admin to have edit access to that file at all.

Admin CAN access the Files (Read Only). They have no need to edit them, however. *shrug*



Which is utterly useless when that address changes after the hack. If you are not altering your AID (Shadowrun equivalent) routinely and often, then you are doing it wrong. *shrug*

Indeed... Raises no flag that way.

......and don't even get me started on nested nodes. Want to have your security system invulnerable? Just stick it 5 nodes deep! No way a hacker is getting to that before they start tripping alarms...........

In all honesty the only hacking system that made any sense prior to 5th ed was when hacking was virtual dungeon (a bit like in Shadowrun Returns). What edition was that again? 1st maybe?

it doesn't matter if you have admin or not. you can perform admin actions from a user account, you just have to use hacking instead of computer.

and, as was said, there's generally not any reason for an admin account to be able to edit the logs anyways. most likely it's a hacking test whether you have admin or not.

and....that's why I don't like the matrix. Things make no sense.

First through third. It didn't get fucked up until they tried to cram 'modern' tech into it in 4e.

SR5 has mostly unfucked it, despite the various opinions on wireless bonuses. The grid/host setup is a pretty good updated take on the SR3 Matrix, just with most of the timekillers removed and the ability to jack in from anywhere.

SR4's biggest problem was making it so there was The Matrix (which was woefully underdescribed/useless) and The Nodes (which weren't really part of the Matrix).

Didn't third Ed have the abstraction with nodes being a snake string like 3/1/6/4/5/6/7/3/5?

I would say more likely they used Linux a couple of times and assumed the rest of the matrix chapter would magically be less like TRON and more like real computers if they threw around real terms. A generic program call exploit comes to mind, generic exploit hehe.

That looks like the host ratings (ACIFS), which was far less abstract. It went like this:

Security Level-Rating/Access/Control/Index/File/Slave

A code might look like: Red-7/9/11/10/10/12

The security level was rated by color and determined the basic characteristics of the host -- how damaging IC were, how quickly security staged up, etc. The number following it was the number of dice the system would roll against an intruder for various actions.

Everything else was a Target Number, modified down by different program ratings depending on the action being taken.

Access determined how hard it was to break into the system. Control was used for system administration tasks. Index was the difficulty to find things on the host. File was the difficulty to access and change data files. Slave governed attached devices (cameras, etc).

So a decker might try to break into a system using his Deception 5 program, and with the above host would have a target of 4 (Access - Deception). Then he might try to find a paydata file with his Browse 3, and roll against a target of 7 (Index - Browse). Then he might try to copy the file with his Read/Write 4, and roll against a target of 6 (File - Read/Write). If he saw a camera (using Browse to look, again) he could access it by using his Spoof 5, creating a target of 7 (Slave - Spoof). Taking a detailed look at anything would involve the Analyze program against the Control rating.

And so on.

Actually, all Shadowrun systems after 2E (which was the dungeon) are reflections of poor understanding of how hacking in the real world works. You had mainframe hacks in 3E, account hacks in 4E. 5E cannot decide whether it wants to be "realistic" or go back to 2E's pure fantasy system (which I actually still like, because for all it's impracticabilities, everything was well defined at least) and kind of fails at both through some questionable design decisions and in parts extremely poor writing.

On topic: I don't particularily mind the possibility of device hacks. I do mind the fact that it's impossible to defend against as a non-decker. I also mind that the designers took out all means of defense for mundanes (a commlink, even Lv 7, is useless against a starting character hacker, and don't get me started on GOD-immune security hackers who will kill you with bricking). SR5 could have been the best Matrix system if a few decisions had been made with more care, and if there had been some editorial oversight and an editor with a plan instead of ... what we have. Spilled milk.

As is, the system is not usable, though with some house ruling I think it can be fixed.

Actually, a non-decker who has decent stats who takes a Full Matrix Defense is decent, assuming an all 3 stat character they will have 13 dice for defense with against any particular decker. I personally wish non-deckers had more control over how we defend, currently any non-decker just spends some initiative score to put up FMD & ignores it beyond that.

However right now, we are just solidifying the idea that everyone should stack Body & Willpower & maybe a bit of Intuition to defend against all Magic & cyber attacks period.

Bulldrek. With 7 firewall and the average 3 int and 3 will (but any half decent runner will have higher than that) so that's 10 dice. Let's assume we're data spiking, so the enemy decker has 6 cybercombat, 6 logic, and 2 for hot simming, so 14 dice. Our runner goes full matrix defense, he now has 13 dice. The runner has a very good chance on average to beat the decker and send his code back at him. So you can't send your own agent or IC after him, boo hoo. Joe Everyrunner wouldn't fair much better against an awaken threat either. And if the hyperbole on dumpshock is to be believed your average runner is always offline because they never think wireless bonuses are ever worth it, which means he'll never take damage in the first place.

And if you actually had your own decker, you could easily hold out long enough for your own decker to geek the enemy decker.

Hacking in the real world is incredibly boring, though.



It's fantastical by its nature. SR4 divested itself of the classic 80's and 90's "data cowboy" conceit that underpinned the very idea of the Shadowrun Matrix, which is why I think the SR4 crowd is having a hard time with the interpretive dance (literally the metaphor-oriented approach) of the SR5 Matrix.



Most of this depends on the mindset of the GM, much in the way that physical security does. Flooding the world with security deckers that go out onto the grid willy-nilly and knock folks around with Matrix damage would be like populating a physical site with nothing but Troll Mystic Adepts -- there's nothing that says you can't, but you still probably shouldn't.

Also, you can't use starting characters as the measuring stick for threats here, since starting characters tend to be better than the threats they face. A Professional Rating 2 or 3 decker (basic corpsec or police) should probably have a dice pool of about 7 or 8, with a device rating 1 or 2 cyberdeck. They shouldn't be riding the same part of the curve as the PCs. At that level you're looking at even odds to beat a DR4 commlink, with a DR5+ commlink being a fairly tough nut. Where this idea that there are going to be dozens of security deckers all with 350,000 nuyen decks and 16 dice roaming around one-shotting all the ware they see came from, I'll never guess.



The system's quite usable in place with no house rules. There are definitely spots that could use some more depth, but as it stands the Matrix rules work better than SR4. I can tell because whenever the decker at my table says "I want to hack that thing" the rest of the table doesn't go on break like they used to.

well Epic it probably stems from previous experience with GM's in 4th ed. You have a team running minimum 12 dice average for most of their skills or higher & the low level corpsec Decker will not be helping anything. Besides, if a low skill Corpsec Decker is guarding Ares newest designs set to roll out next year...then Ares is in for a huge year of Losses.

The biggest difference is that there are many groups that run with larger dicepools, the larger a groups overall pools, then you have to use tougher adversaries,