Lethal vs Less Lethal Options

[FuelDrop]

Back in 4th, going for less lethal options was clearly the better choice in the vast majority of cases, with stunbolt being an instagib with absurdly low drain and stick-and-shock rounds being insanely good for their price. Even tazers were almost unmatched as weapons, with very high damage and excellent armour penetration.

Now comes 5th. Stunbolt is no longer 'I win', S&S is a lot less godlike, and tazers (while still good) are far more comparable to other weapons in terms of damage. Now there's a price tag associated with using less lethal options, either from them being less effective or more costly (or both). So... How many people who used to run less lethal have switched over for the sake of efficiency?

[Dolanar]

That depends on your definition of efficiency, I consider it amateur to leave a large body count.I personally will still have either s&s or rubber round clips handy to drop most guards, leaving lethal for when I want to be noticed.

[FuelDrop]

That depends on your definition of efficiency, I consider it amateur to leave a large body count.I personally will still have either s&s or rubber round clips handy to drop most guards, leaving lethal for when I want to be noticed.

Agh! Professional! Kill it! Kill it with fire!

[Elfenlied]

When outside of mostly lawless areas such as the barrens, my characters tend to go for lethal only when it's either part of the job (never understood all those special snowflakes who don't do wetwork) or personal. With law enforcement, I tend to avoid lethal engagements even if it means a slight reduction in stopping power. I make heavy use of various chemical weaponry (Neurostun and Pepper Punch are both legal, affordable and debilitating).

The fact that Gel ammo no longer sucks quite as hard as it did in SR4A is also a plus.

[KCKitsune]

(never understood all those special snowflakes who don't do wetwork)

Doing Wetwork gets you noticed... in a bad way. If your team is known for NOT killing people, then the opposition may be less likely to really fight you as even your non-lethal approach hurts like a bitch. If you're team is a bunch of psycho killers then your opponents will think they have no choice but to break out the really heavy crap.

[Remnar]

Doing Wetwork gets you noticed... in a bad way. If your team is known for NOT killing people, then the opposition may be less likely to really fight you as even your non-lethal approach hurts like a bitch. If you're team is a bunch of psycho killers then your opponents will think they have no choice but to break out the really heavy crap.

I think, perhaps, Wetwork in that sense was more towards the assassination sytle definition of 'Wetwork' which can still be done without a huge body count, just the target and all that.

We played a bit more Mowhawk but looking over the rules I'd go lethal for the most part since it makes more sense for my generally crazy 'runners. The Corps are gonna want me dead for the crap I stole, not for some ten-nuyen an hour sec guard I hosed down instead of zapping unconsious (and probably giving PTSD and he can't work again anyway, and is now on disabillity). I think the 'Star (or KE, as it would be now) is gonna treat my highly cybered SINless criminal about the same regardless of the number of kills the street claims he has.

Either way he's probably shoot on sight and sell the parts to the organleggers.

[toturi]

Doing Wetwork gets you noticed... in a bad way. If your team is known for NOT killing people, then the opposition may be less likely to really fight you as even your non-lethal approach hurts like a bitch. If you're team is a bunch of psycho killers then your opponents will think they have no choice but to break out the really heavy crap.

It cuts bothways. If your team is known for NOT killing people, then the opposition may be more likely to really fight you as they have no incentive to not go down fighting, they won't die, but you will, you're the free frag and meal ticket to a promotion! If you're team is a bunch of pro hitters that kill people who get in their way then your opponents will think twice about opposing you and likely to run away at the first sign of danger. If they have the really heavy crap, then it is likely that they are going to break it out anyway, regardless of your rep for non-lethal/lethal.

What gets you noticed in a negative way is that you go out of your way to kill people. Killing people who do not necessarily rate killing generates needless negative publicity, whereas dead security guards is the cost of doing business.

In 4th ed, the professional approach would likely be the non-lethal one. But in 5th ed, the professional approach would more likely be the lethal one. Those who cannot adapt and change with the times are the ones being unprofessional.

[Shemhazai]

I would consider the runners unprofessional if a security team can figure out who they are on sight. The security forces are paid to respond with deadly force in any case, regardless of a runner team's reputation.

Personally, I think the rules should have most non-deadly force take a little time before taking effect. While a bullet is instantaneous, an injection should take a moment before its effects kick in.

[X-Kalibur]

You need to adapt to every situation as to whether lethal or non-lethal is the best response. If an HTR is coming for you, you damn well better use every thing you have on them. If you're being chased by some 'Star or KE cops? Non-lethal will bring less heat further down the line.

[DrZaius]

You need to adapt to every situation as to whether lethal or non-lethal is the best response. If an HTR is coming for you, you damn well better use every thing you have on them. If you're being chased by some 'Star or KE cops? Non-lethal will bring less heat further down the line.

Plus, murdering corpsec rent-a-cops can cause your quiet little run to get more attention. A few knocked out guards and a stolen datafile could get swept under the rug, that same file missing with a body count upwards of 20 and it's a bit harder to ignore.

-DrZ

[Muspellsheimr]

What gets you noticed in a negative way is that you go out of your way to kill people. Killing people who do not necessarily rate killing generates needless negative publicity, whereas dead security guards is the cost of doing business.

This.

While every combat-focused character (& most others who even might end up in combat) should have a nonlethal option available, I would never use it as a primary weapon unless the run specifically calls for it, or you are playing a Batman-ish character.

[kzt]

Plus, murdering corpsec rent-a-cops can cause your quiet little run to get more attention. A few knocked out guards and a stolen datafile could get swept under the rug, that same file missing with a body count upwards of 20 and it's a bit harder to ignore.

Exactly. When you are stealing things that don't officially exist from people who are disinclined to explain just what this totally unauthorized, illegal and immoral project to the authorities it tends to limit how much effort those people can put into getting you. Once the corp hierarchy or the police get involved the odds of someone assigning a team to spend the next 6 months making your life hell greatly increases. I don't want to be a runner that KE decides to set a Firewatch ritual magic team on. It's really unlikely to have a happy ending for the runner.

[Elfenlied]

Doing Wetwork gets you noticed... in a bad way. If your team is known for NOT killing people, then the opposition may be less likely to really fight you as even your non-lethal approach hurts like a bitch. If you're team is a bunch of psycho killers then your opponents will think they have no choice but to break out the really heavy crap.

Do note that there's a difference between wetwork and racking up a high bodycount for the lolz. Assassinating a high value target (and only them) while making it look like an accident with their security detail none the wiser is vastly different from playing a gung-ho band of kick-in-the-door rednecks.

The first gets you noticed by increasing your street cred and your reputation as a team of reliable, professional assassins, while the latter gets you notoriety faster than the Tremor brothers. There's a difference between this and that.

[toturi]

Exactly. When you are stealing things that don't officially exist from people who are disinclined to explain just what this totally unauthorized, illegal and immoral project to the authorities it tends to limit how much effort those people can put into getting you. Once the corp hierarchy or the police get involved the odds of someone assigning a team to spend the next 6 months making your life hell greatly increases. I don't want to be a runner that KE decides to set a Firewatch ritual magic team on. It's really unlikely to have a happy ending for the runner.

Rent-a-cops aren't likely to be the ones that are protecting the things that you are being paid much to steal.

Even if they did, then the people who are disinclined to explain just what this totally unauthorized, illegal and immoral project to the authorities will be similarly disinclined to explain what Mr-Rent-A-Cop was doing at the site of such a totally unauthorized, illegal and immoral project. And further given such projects are already likely to generate bodies that require disposal without any runner input in the first place, going non-lethal as a primary option seems foolish and foolhardy.

[Irion]

Even if they did, then the people who are disinclined to explain just what this totally unauthorized, illegal and immoral project to the authorities will be similarly disinclined to explain what Mr-Rent-A-Cop was doing at the site of such a totally unauthorized, illegal and immoral project. And further given such projects are already likely to generate bodies that require disposal without any runner input in the first place, going non-lethal as a primary option seems foolish and foolhardy.

Not everything involves human experiments or the like. You do not need to go that far, to not want to talk about something.
Just because somebody does not want to talk about the last weekend, it does not mean they sliced somebody up and burried the parts in the woods...

It starts if you can't really admit that you had something in the first place, because well you know you stole it in the first place.
And then their is the cost of going public with it. This can do more damage to you via the stock market, than the whole run did.
(But with a pile of dead bodys you already have this problem. And the only way to repair it, is to show the public the pile of dead bodys who did it)

The second point is, that you probably do not even have do admit what you were doing, you just do not know what they wanted...
Honestly: If you hear the cops shot a guy who killed several people, do you then think it was a coverup?

But if there is actually no damage to speak of and the only thing missing is something you do not want to mention to your boss or your boss do not want to awnser questions about it.... Well, the options at your disposal are quite limited.

We do not let people get away with murder, we get them dead or alive, is something you can say on TV.
We kill people to cover stuff up, is something you can't say on TV.

[FuelDrop]

Not everything involves human experiments or the like. You do not need to go that far, to not want to talk about something.
Just because somebody does not want to talk about the last weekend, it does not mean they sliced somebody up and burried the parts in the woods...

I deny everything!

Oh, you were speaking hypothetically?

Forget I said anything... *Exits whistling*

[Sendaz]

I deny everything!

Oh, you were speaking hypothetically?

Forget I said anything... *Exits whistling*

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[Modular Man]

[...] playing a gung-ho band of kick-in-the-door rednecks.

You really made me laugh there. I just read that and immediately thought "Tremor Brothers!" - imagine my amusement when I actually clicked that second link (IMG:style_emoticons/default/rotfl.gif)
Fun fact: A friend of mine used a band of dissonant technomancers based on those guys in a run he GM'ed... The players dodged a bullet by not being visible at that point.

[X-Kalibur]

Do note that there's a difference between wetwork and racking up a high bodycount for the lolz. Assassinating a high value target (and only them) while making it look like an accident with their security detail none the wiser is vastly different from playing a gung-ho band of kick-in-the-door rednecks.

The first gets you noticed by increasing your street cred and your reputation as a team of reliable, professional assassins, while the latter gets you notoriety faster than the Tremor brothers. There's a difference between this and that.

Depening on whom you assassinate makes a difference too. Not everyone can be The Jackal, but if you have a rep for taking high level targets out, and people learn you've mobilized, it can cause trouble.

[Remnar]

Its interesting to see everyone's differing opinion about these types of topics. As far as I've always imagined, the Corps just DONT CARE about the human cost. They care about whetever McGuffin you've stolen, but replacing trained mooks isn't really an issue, nor really a problem for retaliation. Sure they want the McGuffin back, but once its off/public/whatever its not cost effective to go for revenge or to "save face".

Sure, Joe Security Captain or Joe Guard's family/friends/whatever might take a personal vendetta tact with your team if you waste his chummer/brother or whatever. But I've always thought it was equally likely that Frank Corporate Exec would do that same if you stole the research he'd been working on for seven years and cost him his promotion/got him fired, etc.

I mean, if I'm some top exec of a corp and a run costs me seven guards (making like 30K a year) and research data that cost the Corp thirty million in potential revenue, and my nice, fat bonus, AND got me demoted... I'm not gonna care about the guards.

Then again, in my Shadowrun the corps would never take that info to the Cops (be they Lone Star or KE) anyway, they keep stuff in house. Naturally everyone else's style/campaign/game world would react differently.

[Remnar]

Double post

[Warlordtheft]

This gets into the play styles of different groups, so YMMV applies. Some GM's expect the body count to be high, players to be immoral/amoral. I tend to run things more mirror and shades than pink mohawk, and warn my players that firefights are deadly and should be avoided. I don't believe in mooks vs NPC. Npc's are Npc's in my book and even a lowly sec guard has some motivation (live through this, get paid).

[kzt]

Then again, in my Shadowrun the corps would never take that info to the Cops (be they Lone Star or KE) anyway, they keep stuff in house. Naturally everyone else's style/campaign/game world would react differently.

Once the cops, EMS/DocWagon and the FD shows up your ability to control the situation and who knows what is GONE. Even a megacorp is normally really limited when it comes to handling structural firefighting or mass casualty situations, and the corp is going either abandon extraterritoriality and allow them to come in with the police to protect them or they are going to sit outside the gate and watch your corporate palace burn while the Chief talks on a live feed to the press about how Your_Megacorp_Here won't let them come in and put the fire out.

[Isath]

This is a corporate owned bonfire, on corporate territory and there is nothing you can do about it... ha!

We may however consider to offer you tickets... for a price.

[Moirdryd]

Just to cut in on the Exec stance and the "personal" issue or dead corp sec. Sure the exec doesn't care about the iced security team, he just wants the pay dirt back from the runners. However the people who come looking for the runners are Corp Sec, possibley connected to the team the runners eliminated. In the non-lethal case the recovery is essentially just another job in a list of jobs and maybe some bruised pride and rep to salve. In the lethal case you're being sent in to get the Womble Spoon back from the people who not only made your operation look bad but also killed some of your own in the process.

You also have things like corporate media (and things can be vicious inside the Megas) far easier to keep quiet a run that leaves no bodies behind from those above you, your immediate rivals and your underlings gunning for your job. You want Project X back, but so long as no one knows it's gone getting it back quietly is the objective. Retribution optional. Having to conceal the paper trail that Dead people create though (not to mention the far more obvious structural damage of a fire fight) is a lot harder. Other departments get involved, people learn faster of the screw up that could cost you everything. You need that Datafile back NOW and what's more you want the people who just made you're cozy corporate lifestyle (Machiavellian as it may have been) an utter living hell to pay.

It entirely comes down to Who you hit, Who it effects and how pissed off you make them. Every run will be different and doing your legwork may give you a clue to response type after you've hit the target. Typically a corp will indeed only invest so much time, money and interest after a Run because there is a limited value in doing so. Most of the time revenge doesn't come knocking corpses or not. But it can do and for some people (with impressive personal wealth, executive authority and deep expense accounts) salving that wounded ego and personal affront is worth it.