Back in 4th, going for less lethal options was clearly the better choice in the vast majority of cases, with stunbolt being an instagib with absurdly low drain and stick-and-shock rounds being insanely good for their price. Even tazers were almost unmatched as weapons, with very high damage and excellent armour penetration.

Now comes 5th. Stunbolt is no longer 'I win', S&S is a lot less godlike, and tazers (while still good) are far more comparable to other weapons in terms of damage. Now there's a price tag associated with using less lethal options, either from them being less effective or more costly (or both). So... How many people who used to run less lethal have switched over for the sake of efficiency?

That depends on your definition of efficiency, I consider it amateur to leave a large body count.I personally will still have either s&s or rubber round clips handy to drop most guards, leaving lethal for when I want to be noticed.

Agh! Professional! Kill it! Kill it with fire!

When outside of mostly lawless areas such as the barrens, my characters tend to go for lethal only when it's either part of the job (never understood all those special snowflakes who don't do wetwork) or personal. With law enforcement, I tend to avoid lethal engagements even if it means a slight reduction in stopping power. I make heavy use of various chemical weaponry (Neurostun and Pepper Punch are both legal, affordable and debilitating).

The fact that Gel ammo no longer sucks quite as hard as it did in SR4A is also a plus.

Doing Wetwork gets you noticed... in a bad way. If your team is known for NOT killing people, then the opposition may be less likely to really fight you as even your non-lethal approach hurts like a bitch. If you're team is a bunch of psycho killers then your opponents will think they have no choice but to break out the really heavy crap.

I think, perhaps, Wetwork in that sense was more towards the assassination sytle definition of 'Wetwork' which can still be done without a huge body count, just the target and all that.

We played a bit more Mowhawk but looking over the rules I'd go lethal for the most part since it makes more sense for my generally crazy 'runners. The Corps are gonna want me dead for the crap I stole, not for some ten-nuyen an hour sec guard I hosed down instead of zapping unconsious (and probably giving PTSD and he can't work again anyway, and is now on disabillity). I think the 'Star (or KE, as it would be now) is gonna treat my highly cybered SINless criminal about the same regardless of the number of kills the street claims he has.

Either way he's probably shoot on sight and sell the parts to the organleggers.

It cuts bothways. If your team is known for NOT killing people, then the opposition may be more likely to really fight you as they have no incentive to not go down fighting, they won't die, but you will, you're the free frag and meal ticket to a promotion! If you're team is a bunch of pro hitters that kill people who get in their way then your opponents will think twice about opposing you and likely to run away at the first sign of danger. If they have the really heavy crap, then it is likely that they are going to break it out anyway, regardless of your rep for non-lethal/lethal.

What gets you noticed in a negative way is that you go out of your way to kill people. Killing people who do not necessarily rate killing generates needless negative publicity, whereas dead security guards is the cost of doing business.

In 4th ed, the professional approach would likely be the non-lethal one. But in 5th ed, the professional approach would more likely be the lethal one. Those who cannot adapt and change with the times are the ones being unprofessional.

I would consider the runners unprofessional if a security team can figure out who they are on sight. The security forces are paid to respond with deadly force in any case, regardless of a runner team's reputation.

Personally, I think the rules should have most non-deadly force take a little time before taking effect. While a bullet is instantaneous, an injection should take a moment before its effects kick in.

You need to adapt to every situation as to whether lethal or non-lethal is the best response. If an HTR is coming for you, you damn well better use every thing you have on them. If you're being chased by some 'Star or KE cops? Non-lethal will bring less heat further down the line.

Plus, murdering corpsec rent-a-cops can cause your quiet little run to get more attention. A few knocked out guards and a stolen datafile could get swept under the rug, that same file missing with a body count upwards of 20 and it's a bit harder to ignore.

-DrZ

This.

While every combat-focused character (& most others who even might end up in combat) should have a nonlethal option available, I would never use it as a primary weapon unless the run specifically calls for it, or you are playing a Batman-ish character.

Exactly. When you are stealing things that don't officially exist from people who are disinclined to explain just what this totally unauthorized, illegal and immoral project to the authorities it tends to limit how much effort those people can put into getting you. Once the corp hierarchy or the police get involved the odds of someone assigning a team to spend the next 6 months making your life hell greatly increases. I don't want to be a runner that KE decides to set a Firewatch ritual magic team on. It's really unlikely to have a happy ending for the runner.

Do note that there's a difference between wetwork and racking up a high bodycount for the lolz. Assassinating a high value target (and only them) while making it look like an accident with their security detail none the wiser is vastly different from playing a gung-ho band of kick-in-the-door rednecks.

The first gets you noticed by increasing your street cred and your reputation as a team of reliable, professional assassins, while the latter gets you notoriety faster than the Tremor brothers. There's a difference between this and that.

Rent-a-cops aren't likely to be the ones that are protecting the things that you are being paid much to steal.

Even if they did, then the people who are disinclined to explain just what this totally unauthorized, illegal and immoral project to the authorities will be similarly disinclined to explain what Mr-Rent-A-Cop was doing at the site of such a totally unauthorized, illegal and immoral project. And further given such projects are already likely to generate bodies that require disposal without any runner input in the first place, going non-lethal as a primary option seems foolish and foolhardy.

Not everything involves human experiments or the like. You do not need to go that far, to not want to talk about something.
Just because somebody does not want to talk about the last weekend, it does not mean they sliced somebody up and burried the parts in the woods...

It starts if you can't really admit that you had something in the first place, because well you know you stole it in the first place.
And then their is the cost of going public with it. This can do more damage to you via the stock market, than the whole run did.
(But with a pile of dead bodys you already have this problem. And the only way to repair it, is to show the public the pile of dead bodys who did it)

The second point is, that you probably do not even have do admit what you were doing, you just do not know what they wanted...
Honestly: If you hear the cops shot a guy who killed several people, do you then think it was a coverup?

But if there is actually no damage to speak of and the only thing missing is something you do not want to mention to your boss or your boss do not want to awnser questions about it.... Well, the options at your disposal are quite limited.

We do not let people get away with murder, we get them dead or alive, is something you can say on TV.
We kill people to cover stuff up, is something you can't say on TV.

I deny everything!

Oh, you were speaking hypothetically?

Forget I said anything... *Exits whistling*

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You really made me laugh there. I just read that and immediately thought "Tremor Brothers!" - imagine my amusement when I actually clicked that second link
Fun fact: A friend of mine used a band of dissonant technomancers based on those guys in a run he GM'ed... The players dodged a bullet by not being visible at that point.

Depening on whom you assassinate makes a difference too. Not everyone can be The Jackal, but if you have a rep for taking high level targets out, and people learn you've mobilized, it can cause trouble.

Its interesting to see everyone's differing opinion about these types of topics. As far as I've always imagined, the Corps just DONT CARE about the human cost. They care about whetever McGuffin you've stolen, but replacing trained mooks isn't really an issue, nor really a problem for retaliation. Sure they want the McGuffin back, but once its off/public/whatever its not cost effective to go for revenge or to "save face".

Sure, Joe Security Captain or Joe Guard's family/friends/whatever might take a personal vendetta tact with your team if you waste his chummer/brother or whatever. But I've always thought it was equally likely that Frank Corporate Exec would do that same if you stole the research he'd been working on for seven years and cost him his promotion/got him fired, etc.

I mean, if I'm some top exec of a corp and a run costs me seven guards (making like 30K a year) and research data that cost the Corp thirty million in potential revenue, and my nice, fat bonus, AND got me demoted... I'm not gonna care about the guards.

Then again, in my Shadowrun the corps would never take that info to the Cops (be they Lone Star or KE) anyway, they keep stuff in house. Naturally everyone else's style/campaign/game world would react differently.

Double post

This gets into the play styles of different groups, so YMMV applies. Some GM's expect the body count to be high, players to be immoral/amoral. I tend to run things more mirror and shades than pink mohawk, and warn my players that firefights are deadly and should be avoided. I don't believe in mooks vs NPC. Npc's are Npc's in my book and even a lowly sec guard has some motivation (live through this, get paid).

Once the cops, EMS/DocWagon and the FD shows up your ability to control the situation and who knows what is GONE. Even a megacorp is normally really limited when it comes to handling structural firefighting or mass casualty situations, and the corp is going either abandon extraterritoriality and allow them to come in with the police to protect them or they are going to sit outside the gate and watch your corporate palace burn while the Chief talks on a live feed to the press about how Your_Megacorp_Here won't let them come in and put the fire out.

This is a corporate owned bonfire, on corporate territory and there is nothing you can do about it... ha!

We may however consider to offer you tickets... for a price.

Just to cut in on the Exec stance and the "personal" issue or dead corp sec. Sure the exec doesn't care about the iced security team, he just wants the pay dirt back from the runners. However the people who come looking for the runners are Corp Sec, possibley connected to the team the runners eliminated. In the non-lethal case the recovery is essentially just another job in a list of jobs and maybe some bruised pride and rep to salve. In the lethal case you're being sent in to get the Womble Spoon back from the people who not only made your operation look bad but also killed some of your own in the process.

You also have things like corporate media (and things can be vicious inside the Megas) far easier to keep quiet a run that leaves no bodies behind from those above you, your immediate rivals and your underlings gunning for your job. You want Project X back, but so long as no one knows it's gone getting it back quietly is the objective. Retribution optional. Having to conceal the paper trail that Dead people create though (not to mention the far more obvious structural damage of a fire fight) is a lot harder. Other departments get involved, people learn faster of the screw up that could cost you everything. You need that Datafile back NOW and what's more you want the people who just made you're cozy corporate lifestyle (Machiavellian as it may have been) an utter living hell to pay.

It entirely comes down to Who you hit, Who it effects and how pissed off you make them. Every run will be different and doing your legwork may give you a clue to response type after you've hit the target. Typically a corp will indeed only invest so much time, money and interest after a Run because there is a limited value in doing so. Most of the time revenge doesn't come knocking corpses or not. But it can do and for some people (with impressive personal wealth, executive authority and deep expense accounts) salving that wounded ego and personal affront is worth it.

Of course, this and most of the other replies in this thread are from a particular gamestyle, Black Trenchcoat.

If you're looking at a more pink mohawk game, you only have to refer to rule #1:
More Dakka!

-DrZ

A lot of people equate wetwork with high bodycount and unprofessional behavior during a run, which is not necessarily the case.

Interesting question here: Aztechnology WILL come after you, no matter if you go lethal or not, and WILL make an example of you, lethal or not.

So... does this policy make it more likely their people will get killed?

Yeah, I've always preferred Pink Mohawk. Trenchcoat never was my group's style.

When in doubt, Panther Assault Cannon.

Wrong.

Always Panther Assault Cannon, doubt or no.

Yes, because if you don't kill them, they're more likely to be liquidated for their incompetence as a matter of corporate policy, or their number has a higher chance of being pulled for the yearly sacrifice.

Edit: also, LINK!

Not true! There's plenty of room for the Ogre Hammer's SA firing mode if you run into the sorts of GMs who believe the Firing Selection Change weapon mod can't be applied to assault cannons because their ammunition is allegedly "exotic". Nothing says overkill like a double tap from an anti-tank cannon!

~Umi

C'mon mate, be professional.

Use an Ares Thunderstruck Gauss Cannon.

And sacrifice that juicy extra point of damage compared to the Ogre Hammer? I think not!

That and reloading is a pain with the Thunderstruck - you have to change both the ammo clip, AND the energy clip! Who has that kind of time?

~Umi

Half Impact Armor (rounded down) -4 means more damage on average.



The advantage is that you reload once every 5 passes as opposed to once every 3 passes. And use the belt/backpack version of the energy pack, so it becomes a non-issue

Why in the world would the Thunderstruck inflict half impact armor?

Also, you're neglecting the fact that you have to eject both clips as well as load new ones. Assuming both are smartguns, the Ogre Hammer takes 1 Free Action to eject the spent clip, 1 Simple Action to reload with a fresh clip, and you can use your second Simple Action to fire a round that same IP. In contrast, the Thunderstruck requires 2 Free Actions to eject the two spent clips, followed by 2 Simple Actions to reload with fresh clips. This forces you to take two IPs to reload before being able to fire with the second Simple Action of the second IP. And it only gets worse if it isn't a smartgun!

Using the canteen sized belt pack or the backpack is certainly an option, but at that point I think the GM needs to start considering enforcing weight limits and non-armor encumbrance. And while Assault Cannons are never subtle, adding either of the larger energy pack options makes them even less so. You could theoretically stash a standard Assault Cannon somewhere and grab it up, ready to fire, but the Thunderstruck requires you to put on bulky and obvious energy packs, and if you're going from unarmed to fully loaded in a hurry, it takes you additional actions to grab up the energy packs, equip them, and plug them into the gauss rifle.

~Umi

Guass weapon like the Thunderstruck are supposed to have much higher velocity (Mach 6+ for hypersonic category) than normal weapon rounds (which are supersonic at Mach 1-3+ usually), basically slicing through armor like butter, hence the half impact value.

Point.

I like the way you think.

@Sendaz

Where is this? What rulebook says anything even remotely like this?

I've simply never seen anything even hinting at something so absurd. "Elemental" damage on one of the heaviest "man portable" weapons in SR4? That'd be obscenely imbalanced, removing it entirely from the power level of other assault cannons.

It also doesn't make any sense. Ballistic armor is designed to resist high velocity, low mass attacks. Impact armor is designed to resist low velocity, high mass attacks. An axe, sword, club, or punch is resisted by Impact because it relatively heavy and slow. A bullet is resisted by Ballistic armor because it is lightweight and moves at extreme velocity.

Gauss rifles rounds are neither heavy nor slow moving, so they should not be resisted by Impact armor. Given that they fire relatively lightweight rounds at very high velocity, they cleary should be resisted with Ballistic armor.

Furthermore, bearing everything else in mind, any armor penetration that is inherent to the weapon is already written into its stats. There is nothing which indicates that the Thunderstruck is intended to halve the target's armor, either Impact or Ballistic. Unlike the various "elemental" weapons and spells which clearly indicate their halving of armor with the tag "-half" for their armor penetration quality, the Thunderstruck simply has a standard format firearm AP value, set to -4.

There isn't even any fluff I can find to suggest anything remotely like the Thunderstruck having superior penetration power compared to other assault cannons! The fluff actually says essentially the opposite - it is said to trade damage for a faster rate of fire!

~Umi

@Umidori

For the rulebook concerning this, specifically as per Arsenal Errata v. 1.3.2 September 12, 2008

p. 30 Ares Thunderstruck Gauss Rifle
Add the following sentence to the end of the weapon description:
“Halve all armor but smart armor against the gauss
rifle (before applying the AP modifier)”.

So it is even worse that you think, because it gets to halve that armor value and then still apply the AP modifier just to add insult to injury.

So there was one small error by us, by referring to impact instead of the ballistic but considering most armors had only a 2 pt difference between their Ballistic and Impact values you can forgive one if we defaulted to the impact value for this discussion since elemental effects are so common and its easier to remember halve impact.
Especially when things like Metal Elemental effects still go against half impact, when really they should be against ballistic (high speed metal shards after all) but it was probably easier for the devs to keep it all in one formula.

In regards to fluff mentioning trading damage for faster rate of fire, they are not referencing to other assault cannons but to earlier versions of guass/railguns like the RELÁMPAGO 120MM Railgun (Aztlan pg 179), which had the abysmal rate of fire of 1 every second combat round as it took a full Combat round to recharge the capacitors. With an original damage of 20D, personal body armor was a secondary notion to this bad boy.
Course this was the heavy version meant for mounting on vehicles but thanks to some clever techies somewhere they have made it a bit more portable with a better ROF, if less damage, in the form of the Thunderstruck.

I can not find it now, but there was a jeep mounted version of the Relampago somewhere that had two barrels so the ROF went up to 1 per combat round, ie Barrel 1 fired 1st round, Barrel 2 fired on 2nd combat round while barrel 1 was recharging. Might have been an adventure or other piece....

Again, you have to remember you are making the leap from supersonic bullet velocities from regular weapons (again 1-3+ Mach) to Hypersonic velocities (5+ Mach).

This kind of damage from the ramp up in energy to push a item to these speeds is outside what standard ballistic was designed to protect against.

Right now the RL Navy has been playing with this sort of tech but it's still hideously big,but this vid is from 3 years ago so some improvements can be expected.

Of course we are currently looking at shipboard cannons so size is not so much an issue. Making them comparable at smaller scale will take some time.

The real leap will be if and when we get decent room temp superconductors, used for both power storage and ramping up the magnetic thrust potential, then expect to see railguns become more feasible.

Now if you are facing off with some loony using one and they have the added power packs I would do called shots on the power cells. At the minimum the cells short out and no more shooting by loony, best case something go crackle, crackle, ZAP (if it shorts/grounds out through the wearer) or Boom (depending on cell composition).

Engulfing by a water elemental is always entertaining as well, though depending on the level of discharge it may wreck the pet.

From the Arsenal Errata:


*edit: Ninja'd

Errata? You fight dirty!

Seriously, that's nuts. That makes the Thunderstruck the most powerful assault cannon by far.

That said, it's still resisted with Ballistic Armor!

~Umi

I wasn't kidding when I said the Gauss rifle was the superior, professional choice for high-end mercenaries. It's just that much better than other assault cannons, and I don't consider the belt pack that detrimental due to the massive advantages otherwise conferred by the weapon.

That said, the laser rifle is a portable alternative, with sporting rifle damage and range but half impact armor.

Btw, the German book already included the updated version, so I assumed it was common knowledge.

High end is right, this is not a toy for the regular grunts, if solely on the power consumption.

Extended battles in remote locations or even behind enemy lines means added difficulties in recharging.

Unless they added a wireless recharge by induction option in SR5 I suppose.

There's a spell in WAR! that recharges power packs. It was designed specifically for this purpose.

And please don't argue how WAR! is powercreep. People who pull out asscannons at the slightest provocation are the target audience for WAR!

Asscannons? Got any stats for that?

The argument is inherent in mentioning anything from WAR!

Not everything in WAR! is bad, though.

The page numbers are pretty inoffensive, I'll give it that.

I rather liked the port town of Bogota.