 Traceless Walk, Alright, so I'm not Jesus, but... |
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 May 3 2004, 03:22 PM
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#1
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Target  Group: Dumpshocked Posts: 91 Joined: 29-November 02 From: London Member No.: 3,657  |
Alright, the adept power, traceless walk, now what exactly is the score with this power?
You can walk on snow without sinking into it? Right, okay, so they can also walk on 2 inches of crispy brown autumn leaves without crushing them down or making a noise? What is this? Some kind of funky levitate? Don't get me wrong, I have no problems at all with the power. Also, before anyone mentions it, the +4 to perception TN is because the adepts equipment makes noise (naked adepts are good to go!). So, okay, you can't walk across liquids, but deep snow is okay, we'll assume that is because it's kinda solid, so.. thick marsh and mud is okay too, right? This means you can't actually TOUCH the ground, because otherwise it's a weight thing.. mass and force and something else I was probably supposed to learn at some point. Anyway, this brings me to another point. Where does this power actually stop? If you can walk across snow without sinking into it, therefore not actually touching it, then what other kinds of things can you walk on? 1) Caltrops - Why not, you don't touch things you walk on right? 2) Burning coals - Yeah, there'd still be heat, but you wouldn't touch the coals. 3) Broken glass - I always wanted to run on broken glass bare-foot. 4) Mono-wire - Assuming I can balance good, why can't I stand on this? 5) Dog turds - Hey, no more cleaning my new sneakers! So, okay, what do you think the score is? What if you had a set of snowy poles, just mounds of snow, could the adept walk up them? Ooh.. and I wanna go see that crazy dwarven tight-rope walker do his mono-wire thing. I mean, in theory, if you don't TOUCH the surface (with feet only), then you can walk across mono-wire, right? What do you all think? - Baatorian Edit - Not much |
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May 3 2004, 03:34 PM
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#2
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Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 216 Joined: 27-January 04 Member No.: 6,025 |
I've always played that you in fact are touching the ground but you simply focus your magic to your feet allowing you to not sink in snow, mud whatever. You are not levitating. Think of it like this, Norrmaly you can't walk across the surface of water, but you can walk accros the surface of ice. All this power does is cause you not to exert force on the ground as you walk(so you don't set off motion dectors also) BUT there is a minimum weight that the surface has to be able to support, somewhere between liquid water and snow. |
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May 3 2004, 03:49 PM
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#3
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Target Group: Dumpshocked Posts: 91 Joined: 29-November 02 From: London Member No.: 3,657 |
Okay, but remember, you don't leave an indent either, right? So now add a bump into that snow, how can you stand on a bump, without leaving a mark and without crushing the floor down, if the snow was completely flat and it stated that you could only walk on completely flat snow, then fine, but it doesn't. Say the snow is completely flat but there is one VERY small raised area, about an inch across. Now, it's completely impossible and unexplainable why you could step onto that small bump (it's an inch high say), without crushing it down. Which brings me back to the quasi-levitation theory, that for whatever reason there is a invisible force that extends from your foot to hold you on top of things without actually putting pressure onto the surface underneath your foot. *shrugs* Still though, my main point was what else could you stand upon, in theory and under the same line of questioning. - Baatorian Edit - Nothing much again. |
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May 3 2004, 03:55 PM
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#4
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Shooting Target Group: Members Posts: 1,632 Joined: 26-February 02 From: Portland Oregon, USA Member No.: 1,304 |
Pressure sensors?
Land mines? Sleeping dragons? |
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May 3 2004, 03:57 PM
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#5
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Target Group: Dumpshocked Posts: 91 Joined: 29-November 02 From: London Member No.: 3,657 |
Well yeah, the description says you can walk on pressure sensors and such. Hence the arguement that you don't actually touch the ground. Land mines, now that's one I didn't think of and is damn interesting. Sleeping dragons? Well *I* ain't checking it out =) - Baatorian |
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May 3 2004, 04:04 PM
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#6
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Runner Group: Members Posts: 3,066 Joined: 5-February 03 Member No.: 4,017 |
Consider the traceless walk to be a single sense (tactile) physical illusion (I suddenly have a new spell I want to learn...). Just as the silence spell prevents the subject's actions from directly making noise, traceless walk prevents the adept's actions from exerting energy to the surroundings. This would be a crippling power if not for the high level of (usually subconscious) control that the adept has over the effect, reality will respond to the adept according to the adept's preference for the action. He wants to pull the trigger, so the power lets kinetic energy transfer to the trigger, he doesn't want to leave a track in the snow, so the power prevents that transfer of energy. The effect only works from the adept out, so he cannot "will" a bullet into harmlessness.
How's that for an explination? |
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May 3 2004, 04:06 PM
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#7
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Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 203 Joined: 3-April 03 Member No.: 4,370 |
so can he will himself to balance barefoot on a caltrop point without hurting himself?
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May 3 2004, 04:12 PM
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#8
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Target Group: Dumpshocked Posts: 91 Joined: 29-November 02 From: London Member No.: 3,657 |
But... not sinking into deep snow would be manipulation, not illusion and what spell is in the manipulation catagory? Levitate =) Also, if the "not leaving any tracks and making no noise" part was illusion, then there would be an opposed role at some point, wouldn't there? If the adept actually DOES make tracks and noise, there has to be an opposed roll. If you wanted to stick it into a magical catagory, it's got to be manipulation. - Baatorian Edit - Below (also for Herald's below post)
Well look, if he can walk on a caltrop shaped piece of out sticking snow without flattening it down, then why can't he walk on a caltrop also?
But the adept doesn't put any weight upon the caltrop, so his foot won't sink into it, otherwise the caltrop-shaped piece of snow would flatten which would leave a trace in the snow, which it doesn't. |
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May 3 2004, 04:14 PM
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#9
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Runner Group: Members Posts: 3,066 Joined: 5-February 03 Member No.: 4,017 |
The effect works one way. The adept is still fully subject to gravity, it's just that the world around the adept "ignores" the effects of the adept. The caltrop would not shift under the weight, but the adept's foot would be just as pierced by the caltrop as without the power. The adept will still take falling damage, but won't leave much of a crater (only the energy transferred after the moment of death would be used to calculate the impact crater).
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May 3 2004, 04:21 PM
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#10
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Runner Group: Members Posts: 3,066 Joined: 5-February 03 Member No.: 4,017 |
Not showing up on film would also be manipulation, as would not generating sound, etc. Illusions can have fully real effcts on the world, they are the physical illusions. Why isn't it a manipulation? Because manipulation is the category for leftovers. Everything could be done as a manipulation spell, so it is always the last category to try to fit something in. |
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May 3 2004, 04:29 PM
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#11
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Target Group: Dumpshocked Posts: 91 Joined: 29-November 02 From: London Member No.: 3,657 |
But you see, illusion spells affect the minds of the viewers, hence the opposed to to notice, which applies to invisibility, stealth and silence. They don't actually make you invisible or deadly quiet. You cast stealth and sneak up on two goons, one may hear you as normal and one may not. Traceless walk doesn't leave tracks, period. There is no way to "pierce" the "illusion", therefore it doesn't affect the minds of the viewers, therefore it's real, therefore it's manipulation and not illusion. Which means you really DON'T touch the floor because otherwise you'd leave tracks and/or sink in snow like all normal people. Simply, being able to walk ON TOP of snow and not sink into it, is not an illusion. The adept doesn't get cold feet/legs so it can't be. - Baatorian |
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May 3 2004, 04:29 PM
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#12
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Great Dragon Group: Members Posts: 6,748 Joined: 5-July 02 Member No.: 2,935 |
If you're stupid enough to step on a hot coal, or a caltrop, or a strand of wire, you deserve to suffer injury, Traceless Walk or not.
Let us go over BASICS children: Traceless Walk gives the recipient a degree of stealth. That is it's purpose. It muffles noise, prevents footprints, and negates pressure on nightingale floors or pressure pads. This doesn't mean you can step on a caltrop and be hunky-frickin' dory, but it might let you hobble away without leaving bloody footprints. When in doubt, assume the least stupid, munchkinny interpretation of the power is correct. |
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May 3 2004, 04:42 PM
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#13
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Target Group: Dumpshocked Posts: 91 Joined: 29-November 02 From: London Member No.: 3,657 |
Cut the patronising attitude. If somethings annoying you, don't bring it here. Yes, traceless walk is an ability to make an adept more stealthy on certain levels, but look at the facts here. It actually mentions that the adept can walk on snow without sinking into it, which means they don't put pressure onto whatever surface they choose to stand on and the fact that they can walk on pressure sensors means that their foot falls don't cause vibrations. Now, if you can walk on (almost solid) ground without pressure or leaving a mark, then you can step onto a piece of snow that is shaped like a caltrop, right? You're not leaving a mark here, which means it doesn't crush, which means it supports your weight. Now apply that to a normal caltrop on a tarmac road. Alright, how about the glass part. Glass makes noise and cracks, the adept can walk on these surfaces without making any noise. Now, if the adept puts enough pressure on the glass (like any at all), it's going to hurt him, yup! But wait, if he's putting pressure on the glass, it's going to make noise. So, to make the glass make no noise, he can't put any pressure on it so that it doesn't break and such, if there's no pressure, it's not going to stick into his feet. - Baatorian |
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May 3 2004, 04:45 PM
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#14
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Shooting Target Group: Members Posts: 1,965 Joined: 26-February 02 From: Edinburgh, Scotland Member No.: 2,032 |
My reading is pretty similar to HoV's. The problem with taking it all the way to a tactile illusion, however, is that it opens a whole new can of illusion-worms. IE: Can you make an illusionary flight of stares and run up them? What about an illusionary bike to drive away on?
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May 3 2004, 04:47 PM
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#15
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Shooting Target Group: Members Posts: 1,965 Joined: 26-February 02 From: Edinburgh, Scotland Member No.: 2,032 |
The caltrop may support your weight, but your boot and foot skin might not. IE: Snow caltrops are as dangerous as real ones to people with traceless walk. :) |
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May 3 2004, 04:53 PM
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#16
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Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 203 Joined: 3-April 03 Member No.: 4,370 |
I'd say when his foot reaches a reasonable amount of surface to support his weight (say half the surface of his foot) then the power works as normal but if you try to step on a caltrop shaped piece of snow while the rest is flat or bumpy then the piece sticking out gets pushed down until it's of a reasonable level with the rest of the snow. same with glass, if a piece is sticking up and the rest is flat then the pointed piece will pierce the skin until it's pushed down to level with the rest of the glass. i'd say you'd then leave a blood-drop trail but not bloody footprints.
off topic, AH how many forums do you post your essays on man?! i counted at least 3 (this one, earthdawn classic, and one other forum that i forgot the name to)! |
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May 3 2004, 04:55 PM
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#17
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Target Group: Dumpshocked Posts: 91 Joined: 29-November 02 From: London Member No.: 3,657 |
Yeah, I mean, it's a tough one and I see what people are saying. But if you have a pointed piece of snow, which isn't frozen solid (no ice here) and you can step on that without crushing any of it down, then you can't really be touching it at all. Something has to stop that little pile of snow from flattening. If it was illusion, then it would flatten, but appear unflattened, but that isn't what traceless walk does. Also note, that ground based-motion sensors (no just pressure pads) do not detect an adept with traceless walk. If you were touching the floor, illusion or not, you'd surely trip them. With the above paragraph taken into account, yes, it's easy to assume that it's a quasi-illusion ability, but not sinking into snow is not. - Baatorian |
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May 3 2004, 04:56 PM
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#18
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Great Dragon Group: Members Posts: 6,748 Joined: 5-July 02 Member No.: 2,935 |
Raptor1033: Several. People tell me I should get out more.
Frankly, Baatorian, it's a silly arguement. Being able to walk without footprints on snow does not automatically equal being able to tip-toe over sharp-sharp pointy things. |
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May 3 2004, 04:58 PM
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#19
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Shooting Target Group: Members Posts: 1,965 Joined: 26-February 02 From: Edinburgh, Scotland Member No.: 2,032 |
I would allow the adept to voluntarily ignore his traceless walk for the purposes of not being skewered by a snow caltrop. If an adept was wearing caltrop-proof boots (that can support his weight on a very small surface area) then I would allow him to balance on a caltrop. If he was wearing monowire-proof boots (or whatever) then he could also balance on monowire. |
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May 3 2004, 05:00 PM
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#20
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Shooting Target Group: Members Posts: 1,616 Joined: 15-March 04 Member No.: 6,158 |
Like most things dealing with magic, it's about suspension of disbelief. Traceless Walk does exactly what it says it does, and that's about the extent of it. There isn't any rationalize way to explain it; it simply is because it's magic. If it made perfect sense, it likely wouldn't be.
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May 3 2004, 05:02 PM
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#21
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Runner Group: Members Posts: 3,066 Joined: 5-February 03 Member No.: 4,017 |
A nice pair of mono-weave socks will keep your feet safe from almost any sharp terrain (caltrops, monowire tightrope, etc.). Anyone know the actual volume of the fabric for a typical sock so we can get an approximate price?
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May 3 2004, 05:03 PM
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#22
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Target Group: Dumpshocked Posts: 91 Joined: 29-November 02 From: London Member No.: 3,657 |
Alright, alright, look. I think the main point here is that the adept doesn't sink into snow. When I walk on snow I sink into it, an adept with traceless walk doesn't. I think that's the main point really. Now, this isn't just "leave a trace in snow" this is and I quote..
That's different, that's a lot different. If I ignore that sentence I wouldn't even have posted here about this, because I'd agree, but that is the small sentence that got me thinking about how it actually works. Edit - Couple of things Okay, as an extra. When the adept and his team and trekking through the antaric, everyone is walking around upto their knees in the snow, but the adept is standing straight on top of it. That is more than just stealth. I know the premise was stealth, but that pushes it past just not leaving tracks and opens up other possibilities. - Baatorian |
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May 3 2004, 05:04 PM
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#23
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Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 586 Joined: 22-November 02 From: Gordonsville, Virginia, U.S.A. (or C.A.S.) Member No.: 3,630 |
I'll admit that I haven't been playing SR for very long, but--if you'll pardon me for using a movie analogy-- I always pictured the "Traceless Walk" Adept power as similar to the scenes in the film REMO WILLIAMS: THE ADVENTURE BEGINS (1985), in which Remo (Fred Ward) was running along the beach (presumably oceanfront property near New York City) and not leaving any footprints in the wet sand at the water's edge.
Whether the "Traceless Walk" ability might allow an Adept PC to duplicate other feats shown in the film (walking across the surface of freshly-poured wet cement, such as Remo did when he was eluding a would-be killer at the Statue of Liberty, or walking across the surface of still water, as Chiun did at the end of the film), I would imagine is a question left to the discretion of individual GMs. Although Baatorian's post makes me think that walking across water would be impossible without using some variation of a "Levitate" spell.... --Foreigner |
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May 3 2004, 05:55 PM
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#24
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Chicago Survivor Group: Dumpshocked Posts: 5,079 Joined: 28-January 04 From: Canton, GA Member No.: 6,033 |
I agree about the application, such as hoofing it across wet cement to escape enemt, etc. except Chun ran across the lake at the end.
("You must run very fast.") |
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May 3 2004, 06:46 PM
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#25
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Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 203 Joined: 3-April 03 Member No.: 4,370 |
or how about with each step the adept takes a magical field forms around his feet effectively extending the surface area his weight is supported on. this makes it so he doesn't depress pressure plates, leave footprints, sink into snow, and combined with a limited range of silence it keeps leaves from crackling, crushed glass from crunching, etc. the extended surface area is useless vs caltrops because the caltrop itself has virtually no surtface area to spread over so the adept gets hurt like everyone else. sounds like best explanation i've heard so far, of course i made it up so i have to think that way :wobble:
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