Alchemy Options

[Machiavelli]

Did anyone find really useful applications for this skill? If we asume, that you don´t want to burn your karma quicker that you get it and therefore you don´t spend it on preparations, i only see very limited uses. I strongly dislike:

a) You need to prepare it right before the run starts. This means possible drain even before the trouble starts. So casting the spell on demand makes more sense.
b) if you use it, you leave physical evidence behind (in addition to your signature you leave anyway).
c) the effects are commonly lower than the one at regular casting.

Makes no sense to me. But maybe i am too stubborn. Maybe i don´t see creative applications. Sure, you could give a chummer a spell along, but this a quite limited use.

[Tymeaus Jalynsfe...]

I agree that the implementation of Alchemy left a lot to be desired. Not to mention the ignorant requirement to have the spell paid for twice if you wanted spellcasting and alchemical applications of the same spell. Ludicrous.

I far preferred its application in SR4A. Even if there was not a LOT of intrinsic uses. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)

[Machiavelli]

I remember the good old days, when alchemy "was there". ^^

Besides: did any of my german comrades notice, that they call the preparations "Alchemisch"? If they didn´t change the german vocabulary again (and nobody informed me), stuff like that was called "Alchemistisch" in the past...like, several hundred years?

[Jack VII]

I'm not a fan of the implementation, personally. The learning of two different versions of spells sucks, the higher drain for limited application, the resistance test nearly guaranteeing that you won't actually get the force/potency you want, and the fading potency over time. It really is quite sub-par, IMO.

[Machiavelli]

I thought so too, so i spent the skill-group-points on "Biotech" instead. ^^

[Shinobi Killfist]

I'm liking it actually. Potency 3-4 isn't hard to pull off if you focus on it and that means 6-8 hours which has given me time to prepare and reocuperate before the run. Simple action to activate, no sustaining penalty, though yes less hits of effect due to the dice being potency+force instead of your full skill pool. Take a force 6+potency 4 increase attribute willpower for example, simple action to activate, simple action cast a quick spell and the bonus dice you got from the extra will power almost compensate for the quick spell and every pass after wards you are eating 1-2 less drain. Add in reaction boosts, improved invisibility, physical mask etc and its pretty cool. I use it a lot for clairvoyance so I'm virtually at no penalty with magic fingers, especially since I specialized my automatics to use with magic fingers.

[RHat]

Main use I see for it would be sustained spells, so you can avoid the penalty without use of a focus. And I don't get why you'd EVER learn it twice - learn it as the preparation or the spell, not both.

[Jack VII]

I think they generally work okay for spells that aren't resisted, but resisted spells come off a bit worse due to the preparation resistance phase reducing the potency of the spell, which directly factors into the opposed test to determine how the spell affects a target.

With that said, would wound modifiers have an impact on the successful application of a spell through a preparation? I would think not, which could be helpful.

[RHat]

I think they generally work okay for spells that aren't resisted, but resisted spells come off a bit worse due to the preparation resistance phase reducing the potency of the spell, which directly factors into the opposed test to determine how the spell affects a target.

With that said, would wound modifiers have an impact on the successful application of a spell through a preparation? I would think not, which could be helpful.

It would have an impact on making the preparation, but not using it (because it is the preparation that rolls, rather than you). Makes it ideal for a self-heal, actually.

[RHat]

I think they generally work okay for spells that aren't resisted, but resisted spells come off a bit worse due to the preparation resistance phase reducing the potency of the spell, which directly factors into the opposed test to determine how the spell affects a target.

With that said, would wound modifiers have an impact on the successful application of a spell through a preparation? I would think not, which could be helpful.

It would have an impact on making the preparation, but not using it (because it is the preparation that rolls, rather than you). Makes it ideal for a self-heal, actually.

[Jaid]

there are also some very cheesy stunts you can pull with a combination of preparations and reagents. but talking about those usually just makes people angry (IMG:style_emoticons/default/nyahnyah.gif)

[Machiavelli]

Not me. Give me ammunition to annoy my GM. ^^

[Sendaz]

funny you should mention ammunition.. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/nyahnyah.gif)

[Jaid]

Not me. Give me ammunition to annoy my GM. ^^

suit yourself. the two basic forms of cheese are as follows:

1) use reagents on a preparation with a low force. this is idea for spells that benefit mostly from limits. it benefits by allowing you to generate increased potency. for example, suppose you wanted to make a preparation of increased reflexes. a force 2 preparation of control thoughts would have a drain of 3 or 4 (depending on trigger), will last for 2 or 4 hours if successful, and has a terrible chance of doing anything due to low dice pool. lackluster at best. but suppose you spend 6 reagents on it. you're now still only rolling 2 dice against your alchemy + magic to determine potency, and still only take 3-4 drain when creating it (which you can probably resist easily, leaving you fresh for the shadowrun), but now you have a pretty decent chance of pulling off a potency of 5-6, which means it lasts 10 or 12 hours (plenty of time to rest off any remaining stun damage if you rolled badly on your drain resistance), and have a bigger dice pool when you trigger the preparation. and a limit of 2 still gives you a good chance to control some mooks (obviously, don't use this on a mage or similar). if you feel the need, you can probably even bump the force a tiny bit higher to allow a better limit on your use of the preparation, although that loses some of the benefit of reduced drain and reduced resistance pool for the preparation. this is the lesser form of cheese, for the most part.

2) use a small amount of reagents on a preparation with a high force. for example, AOE indirect combat spells benefit from this form of cheese. a force 12 ball lightning has a drain of 12, and normally you risk physical drain. use, say, 6 reagents, and suddenly the risk of physical drain (provided you have magic 6 or better) is gone. now, the drain on this spell is still no joke; but you probably have several hours of rest between making the focus, and going on the run. this is vastly better than eating 9+ drain in the middle of a shadowrun, physical or not. furthermore, realistically speaking a force 12 ball lightning is normally completely impractical; with a 12 meter radius, it will often be much too big and will risk frying yourself and your allies. but for preparations, the area is potency meters in radius, which is likely a much more manageable 2-4 meter radius. note that force 12 is not necessarily the ideal amount, as it gives the preparation 12 dice to resist your dice pool when generating potency, and if it gets the average 4 hits your preparation has a maximum force of 2 assuming 6 reagents (which means your ball lightning can't hit that threshold of 3 hits that places it exactly on target). so you may prefer "settling" for a force of 10 or so (which is still going to be dealing 10P damage with a -10 AP and no chance to dodge once it hits, so not exactly weak). unless of course you have a magic of 7+, in which case you just use more reagents (IMG:style_emoticons/default/wink.gif)

there will be variations on these, of course, based on what spells you want to use. but those are the two basic tricks.

[attilatheyeon]

Something that confuses me. It says in the magic section under alchemy that you have to know the spell first. What about aspected enchanters, do they need to know the spell first? Is that a typo, or do enchanters get a pass on the rule? I'm hoping it's a typo and i can learn a preparation without needing to know the spell.

[RHat]

You have to know the "alchemical spell", AKA preparation.

[FuelDrop]

I always thought the biggest advantage (and possibly cheese) with it was to completely destroy the action economy by having a whole bunch of beneficial effects about your person, all keyed to the same word of power. Casting Improved Reflexes, Increase (All eight attributes), Armour, Combat sense, Improved Invisibility and Heal all in a single action is pretty good if you've been ambushed and need to get your defenses up in a hurry while recovering from any damage you took before your turn.

Alternatively, a pocket full of marbles keyed to go off if touched works just as well as long as you can slip your hand into your pocket. And that's not even getting into the possibilities offered by alchemically enhanced arrows, wands that spam a dozen direct damage spells at the target in a single action, sticky note land mines, and all the other fun tricks you can pull off if you put your mind to it.

Huh, maybe stunts like this are why my GM won't let me go a mage...

[Tanegar]

I always thought the biggest advantage (and possibly cheese) with it was to completely destroy the action economy by having a whole bunch of beneficial effects about your person, all keyed to the same word of power. Casting Improved Reflexes, Increase (All eight attributes), Armour, Combat sense, Improved Invisibility and Heal all in a single action is pretty good if you've been ambushed and need to get your defenses up in a hurry while recovering from any damage you took before your turn.

Alternatively, a pocket full of marbles keyed to go off if touched works just as well as long as you can slip your hand into your pocket. And that's not even getting into the possibilities offered by alchemically enhanced arrows, wands that spam a dozen direct damage spells at the target in a single action, sticky note land mines, and all the other fun tricks you can pull off if you put your mind to it.

Huh, maybe stunts like this are why my GM won't let me go a mage...

Holy poorly-thought-out rules, Batman!

[FuelDrop]

Holy poorly-thought-out rules, Batman!

Anyone who says Alchemy isn't as good as spellcasting obviously hasn't spent a few hours casually working out how to break the system so bad it makes everyone else give up and go home. What's better is that the spell combo I mentioned above? If you give a sack of touch-activated Marbles with all of those on them (Except the health spells, which need to be voice activated) to a street sammie then he can activate them all in one go too. A buff mage can have a bunch of stuff like that all ready and turn the team into virtual gods if he has time to get prepped. Use the Reagent cheese above to avoid having nasty drain issues too.

Here's another thought for you: Fireball BBs and a slingshot. Have fun.

EDIT: In answer to the OP's original question: Yes, yes I have.

[Machiavelli]

I think the main reason whay Alchemy is not THAT game-breaking, is that you need to prepare these spells first. And because of the quite low duration they exist, you would need to prepare them all toghether before the run. And you have drain for all of them. And you need to know the spells all in the alchemical-version. A LOT of "ands". But IF you manage to deal with all of this, man you HAVE earned to do all your mentioned tricks. ^^

[RHat]

At very least, though, the "same command word" ones don't work; that's not how Command preparations work.

[Jaid]

yeah, i'm having some doubts about actually being able to prepare even just the 8 attribute spread at a useful force before a run for a single person. you can sleep off stun damage pretty quick, but there are limits...

i suppose maybe if you were an initiate with a high grade of initiation and centering, but you can only make so many high-force tests before those small packets of stun damage start adding up to be something rather significant...

or, alternately, if you removed the karma cost from fixation. 'cause, i mean, i don't even think there are very many aspected enchanters that would want that metamagic as it stands.

[Tymeaus Jalynsfe...]

Anyone who says Alchemy isn't as good as spellcasting obviously hasn't spent a few hours casually working out how to break the system so bad it makes everyone else give up and go home. What's better is that the spell combo I mentioned above? If you give a sack of touch-activated Marbles with all of those on them (Except the health spells, which need to be voice activated) to a street sammie then he can activate them all in one go too. A buff mage can have a bunch of stuff like that all ready and turn the team into virtual gods if he has time to get prepped. Use the Reagent cheese above to avoid having nasty drain issues too.

Here's another thought for you: Fireball BBs and a slingshot. Have fun.

EDIT: In answer to the OP's original question: Yes, yes I have.

Which is why Alchemy, as represented in SR5's ruleset, is ignorant and ludicrous. Get rid of it.

[Machiavelli]

We all hope for an errata OR a the upcoming magic book. It will be VERY interesting if they agree that mistakes were made OR if the follow the road the started, no matter what the people say.

[Shinobi Killfist]

Which is why Alchemy, as represented in SR5's ruleset, is ignorant and ludicrous. Get rid of it.

Because someone can break it? If that were the guideline nothing in the game would exist.

The touch rules are pretty harsh so it actually is pretty hard to break, can someone work around it in an awkward I'm trying to break the game fashion? sure, but its not nearly as simple as making a bunch of touch marbles and putting them in your pocket. The act of putting it in your pocket would activate the touch spell. You have to really game it to break it, and at that point if it wewnr't SR5 would you care? There are plenty of things just as breakable in SR4 which you seem fine with because you just wont break them.