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Machiavelli
Did anyone find really useful applications for this skill? If we asume, that you donīt want to burn your karma quicker that you get it and therefore you donīt spend it on preparations, i only see very limited uses. I strongly dislike:

a) You need to prepare it right before the run starts. This means possible drain even before the trouble starts. So casting the spell on demand makes more sense.
b) if you use it, you leave physical evidence behind (in addition to your signature you leave anyway).
c) the effects are commonly lower than the one at regular casting.

Makes no sense to me. But maybe i am too stubborn. Maybe i donīt see creative applications. Sure, you could give a chummer a spell along, but this a quite limited use.
Tymeaus Jalynsfein
I agree that the implementation of Alchemy left a lot to be desired. Not to mention the ignorant requirement to have the spell paid for twice if you wanted spellcasting and alchemical applications of the same spell. Ludicrous.

I far preferred its application in SR4A. Even if there was not a LOT of intrinsic uses. smile.gif
Machiavelli
I remember the good old days, when alchemy "was there". ^^

Besides: did any of my german comrades notice, that they call the preparations "Alchemisch"? If they didnīt change the german vocabulary again (and nobody informed me), stuff like that was called "Alchemistisch" in the past...like, several hundred years?
Jack VII
I'm not a fan of the implementation, personally. The learning of two different versions of spells sucks, the higher drain for limited application, the resistance test nearly guaranteeing that you won't actually get the force/potency you want, and the fading potency over time. It really is quite sub-par, IMO.
Machiavelli
I thought so too, so i spent the skill-group-points on "Biotech" instead. ^^
Shinobi Killfist
I'm liking it actually. Potency 3-4 isn't hard to pull off if you focus on it and that means 6-8 hours which has given me time to prepare and reocuperate before the run. Simple action to activate, no sustaining penalty, though yes less hits of effect due to the dice being potency+force instead of your full skill pool. Take a force 6+potency 4 increase attribute willpower for example, simple action to activate, simple action cast a quick spell and the bonus dice you got from the extra will power almost compensate for the quick spell and every pass after wards you are eating 1-2 less drain. Add in reaction boosts, improved invisibility, physical mask etc and its pretty cool. I use it a lot for clairvoyance so I'm virtually at no penalty with magic fingers, especially since I specialized my automatics to use with magic fingers.
RHat
Main use I see for it would be sustained spells, so you can avoid the penalty without use of a focus. And I don't get why you'd EVER learn it twice - learn it as the preparation or the spell, not both.
Jack VII
I think they generally work okay for spells that aren't resisted, but resisted spells come off a bit worse due to the preparation resistance phase reducing the potency of the spell, which directly factors into the opposed test to determine how the spell affects a target.

With that said, would wound modifiers have an impact on the successful application of a spell through a preparation? I would think not, which could be helpful.
RHat
QUOTE (Jack VII @ Jan 28 2014, 03:49 PM) *
I think they generally work okay for spells that aren't resisted, but resisted spells come off a bit worse due to the preparation resistance phase reducing the potency of the spell, which directly factors into the opposed test to determine how the spell affects a target.

With that said, would wound modifiers have an impact on the successful application of a spell through a preparation? I would think not, which could be helpful.


It would have an impact on making the preparation, but not using it (because it is the preparation that rolls, rather than you). Makes it ideal for a self-heal, actually.
RHat
QUOTE (Jack VII @ Jan 28 2014, 03:49 PM) *
I think they generally work okay for spells that aren't resisted, but resisted spells come off a bit worse due to the preparation resistance phase reducing the potency of the spell, which directly factors into the opposed test to determine how the spell affects a target.

With that said, would wound modifiers have an impact on the successful application of a spell through a preparation? I would think not, which could be helpful.


It would have an impact on making the preparation, but not using it (because it is the preparation that rolls, rather than you). Makes it ideal for a self-heal, actually.
Jaid
there are also some very cheesy stunts you can pull with a combination of preparations and reagents. but talking about those usually just makes people angry nyahnyah.gif
Machiavelli
Not me. Give me ammunition to annoy my GM. ^^
Sendaz
funny you should mention ammunition.. nyahnyah.gif
Jaid
QUOTE (Machiavelli @ Jan 29 2014, 02:57 AM) *
Not me. Give me ammunition to annoy my GM. ^^


suit yourself. the two basic forms of cheese are as follows:

1) use reagents on a preparation with a low force. this is idea for spells that benefit mostly from limits. it benefits by allowing you to generate increased potency. for example, suppose you wanted to make a preparation of increased reflexes. a force 2 preparation of control thoughts would have a drain of 3 or 4 (depending on trigger), will last for 2 or 4 hours if successful, and has a terrible chance of doing anything due to low dice pool. lackluster at best. but suppose you spend 6 reagents on it. you're now still only rolling 2 dice against your alchemy + magic to determine potency, and still only take 3-4 drain when creating it (which you can probably resist easily, leaving you fresh for the shadowrun), but now you have a pretty decent chance of pulling off a potency of 5-6, which means it lasts 10 or 12 hours (plenty of time to rest off any remaining stun damage if you rolled badly on your drain resistance), and have a bigger dice pool when you trigger the preparation. and a limit of 2 still gives you a good chance to control some mooks (obviously, don't use this on a mage or similar). if you feel the need, you can probably even bump the force a tiny bit higher to allow a better limit on your use of the preparation, although that loses some of the benefit of reduced drain and reduced resistance pool for the preparation. this is the lesser form of cheese, for the most part.

2) use a small amount of reagents on a preparation with a high force. for example, AOE indirect combat spells benefit from this form of cheese. a force 12 ball lightning has a drain of 12, and normally you risk physical drain. use, say, 6 reagents, and suddenly the risk of physical drain (provided you have magic 6 or better) is gone. now, the drain on this spell is still no joke; but you probably have several hours of rest between making the focus, and going on the run. this is vastly better than eating 9+ drain in the middle of a shadowrun, physical or not. furthermore, realistically speaking a force 12 ball lightning is normally completely impractical; with a 12 meter radius, it will often be much too big and will risk frying yourself and your allies. but for preparations, the area is potency meters in radius, which is likely a much more manageable 2-4 meter radius. note that force 12 is not necessarily the ideal amount, as it gives the preparation 12 dice to resist your dice pool when generating potency, and if it gets the average 4 hits your preparation has a maximum force of 2 assuming 6 reagents (which means your ball lightning can't hit that threshold of 3 hits that places it exactly on target). so you may prefer "settling" for a force of 10 or so (which is still going to be dealing 10P damage with a -10 AP and no chance to dodge once it hits, so not exactly weak). unless of course you have a magic of 7+, in which case you just use more reagents wink.gif

there will be variations on these, of course, based on what spells you want to use. but those are the two basic tricks.
attilatheyeon
Something that confuses me. It says in the magic section under alchemy that you have to know the spell first. What about aspected enchanters, do they need to know the spell first? Is that a typo, or do enchanters get a pass on the rule? I'm hoping it's a typo and i can learn a preparation without needing to know the spell.
RHat
You have to know the "alchemical spell", AKA preparation.
FuelDrop
I always thought the biggest advantage (and possibly cheese) with it was to completely destroy the action economy by having a whole bunch of beneficial effects about your person, all keyed to the same word of power. Casting Improved Reflexes, Increase (All eight attributes), Armour, Combat sense, Improved Invisibility and Heal all in a single action is pretty good if you've been ambushed and need to get your defenses up in a hurry while recovering from any damage you took before your turn.

Alternatively, a pocket full of marbles keyed to go off if touched works just as well as long as you can slip your hand into your pocket. And that's not even getting into the possibilities offered by alchemically enhanced arrows, wands that spam a dozen direct damage spells at the target in a single action, sticky note land mines, and all the other fun tricks you can pull off if you put your mind to it.

Huh, maybe stunts like this are why my GM won't let me go a mage...
Tanegar
QUOTE (FuelDrop @ Feb 3 2014, 03:10 AM) *
I always thought the biggest advantage (and possibly cheese) with it was to completely destroy the action economy by having a whole bunch of beneficial effects about your person, all keyed to the same word of power. Casting Improved Reflexes, Increase (All eight attributes), Armour, Combat sense, Improved Invisibility and Heal all in a single action is pretty good if you've been ambushed and need to get your defenses up in a hurry while recovering from any damage you took before your turn.

Alternatively, a pocket full of marbles keyed to go off if touched works just as well as long as you can slip your hand into your pocket. And that's not even getting into the possibilities offered by alchemically enhanced arrows, wands that spam a dozen direct damage spells at the target in a single action, sticky note land mines, and all the other fun tricks you can pull off if you put your mind to it.

Huh, maybe stunts like this are why my GM won't let me go a mage...

Holy poorly-thought-out rules, Batman!
FuelDrop
QUOTE (Tanegar @ Feb 3 2014, 04:30 PM) *
Holy poorly-thought-out rules, Batman!

Anyone who says Alchemy isn't as good as spellcasting obviously hasn't spent a few hours casually working out how to break the system so bad it makes everyone else give up and go home. What's better is that the spell combo I mentioned above? If you give a sack of touch-activated Marbles with all of those on them (Except the health spells, which need to be voice activated) to a street sammie then he can activate them all in one go too. A buff mage can have a bunch of stuff like that all ready and turn the team into virtual gods if he has time to get prepped. Use the Reagent cheese above to avoid having nasty drain issues too.

Here's another thought for you: Fireball BBs and a slingshot. Have fun.

EDIT: In answer to the OP's original question: Yes, yes I have.
Machiavelli
I think the main reason whay Alchemy is not THAT game-breaking, is that you need to prepare these spells first. And because of the quite low duration they exist, you would need to prepare them all toghether before the run. And you have drain for all of them. And you need to know the spells all in the alchemical-version. A LOT of "ands". But IF you manage to deal with all of this, man you HAVE earned to do all your mentioned tricks. ^^
RHat
At very least, though, the "same command word" ones don't work; that's not how Command preparations work.
Jaid
yeah, i'm having some doubts about actually being able to prepare even just the 8 attribute spread at a useful force before a run for a single person. you can sleep off stun damage pretty quick, but there are limits...

i suppose maybe if you were an initiate with a high grade of initiation and centering, but you can only make so many high-force tests before those small packets of stun damage start adding up to be something rather significant...

or, alternately, if you removed the karma cost from fixation. 'cause, i mean, i don't even think there are very many aspected enchanters that would want that metamagic as it stands.
Tymeaus Jalynsfein
QUOTE (FuelDrop @ Feb 3 2014, 01:42 AM) *
Anyone who says Alchemy isn't as good as spellcasting obviously hasn't spent a few hours casually working out how to break the system so bad it makes everyone else give up and go home. What's better is that the spell combo I mentioned above? If you give a sack of touch-activated Marbles with all of those on them (Except the health spells, which need to be voice activated) to a street sammie then he can activate them all in one go too. A buff mage can have a bunch of stuff like that all ready and turn the team into virtual gods if he has time to get prepped. Use the Reagent cheese above to avoid having nasty drain issues too.

Here's another thought for you: Fireball BBs and a slingshot. Have fun.

EDIT: In answer to the OP's original question: Yes, yes I have.


Which is why Alchemy, as represented in SR5's ruleset, is ignorant and ludicrous. Get rid of it.
Machiavelli
We all hope for an errata OR a the upcoming magic book. It will be VERY interesting if they agree that mistakes were made OR if the follow the road the started, no matter what the people say.
Shinobi Killfist
QUOTE (Tymeaus Jalynsfein @ Feb 3 2014, 11:04 AM) *
Which is why Alchemy, as represented in SR5's ruleset, is ignorant and ludicrous. Get rid of it.


Because someone can break it? If that were the guideline nothing in the game would exist.

The touch rules are pretty harsh so it actually is pretty hard to break, can someone work around it in an awkward I'm trying to break the game fashion? sure, but its not nearly as simple as making a bunch of touch marbles and putting them in your pocket. The act of putting it in your pocket would activate the touch spell. You have to really game it to break it, and at that point if it wewnr't SR5 would you care? There are plenty of things just as breakable in SR4 which you seem fine with because you just wont break them.
Smash
QUOTE (FuelDrop @ Feb 3 2014, 07:42 PM) *
Anyone who says Alchemy isn't as good as spellcasting obviously hasn't spent a few hours casually working out how to break the system so bad it makes everyone else give up and go home. What's better is that the spell combo I mentioned above? If you give a sack of touch-activated Marbles with all of those on them (Except the health spells, which need to be voice activated) to a street sammie then he can activate them all in one go too. A buff mage can have a bunch of stuff like that all ready and turn the team into virtual gods if he has time to get prepped. Use the Reagent cheese above to avoid having nasty drain issues too.

Here's another thought for you: Fireball BBs and a slingshot. Have fun.

EDIT: In answer to the OP's original question: Yes, yes I have.


This of course is all under the assumption that alchemical effects don't have to be sustained. If it doesn't then it breaks the game, if it does it's useless.

I think the problem with Alchemy stems from the fact that they're trying to jam a square peg into a round hole. D&D lends itself well to the concept of potions and scrolls because of the Vancian spell system while Shadowrun's cast on demand system does not.
Tymeaus Jalynsfein
QUOTE (Shinobi Killfist @ Feb 3 2014, 07:30 PM) *
Because someone can break it? If that were the guideline nothing in the game would exist.

The touch rules are pretty harsh so it actually is pretty hard to break, can someone work around it in an awkward I'm trying to break the game fashion? sure, but its not nearly as simple as making a bunch of touch marbles and putting them in your pocket. The act of putting it in your pocket would activate the touch spell. You have to really game it to break it, and at that point if it wewnr't SR5 would you care? There are plenty of things just as breakable in SR4 which you seem fine with because you just wont break them.


No, because it is dumb. *shrug*
I far prefer the Alchemy rules for SR4A. Distinctly different from Spells...
RHat
Oh, come on TJ, you KNOW that's circular.
Tymeaus Jalynsfein
QUOTE (RHat @ Feb 4 2014, 12:39 PM) *
Oh, come on TJ, you KNOW that's circular.


Does not change the fact that I liked Alchemy in SR4A, and absolutely despise it in SR5. The idea of potions/scroll type magic in SR5 is just dumb (and to me, that is exactly what it feels like in SR5), in my opinion. Completely and utterly. That is how I feel.
RHat
QUOTE (Tymeaus Jalynsfein @ Feb 4 2014, 02:07 PM) *
Does not change the fact that I liked Alchemy in SR4A, and absolutely despise it in SR5. The idea of potions/scroll type magic in SR5 is just dumb (and to me, that is exactly what it feels like in SR5), in my opinion. Completely and utterly. That is how I feel.


And if you just want to feel that, whatever - but when it comes to actually having a discussion on the subject, that's another matter entirely.
Tymeaus Jalynsfein
QUOTE (RHat @ Feb 4 2014, 02:33 PM) *
And if you just want to feel that, whatever - but when it comes to actually having a discussion on the subject, that's another matter entirely.


I have yet to see any compelling arguments for me to think that Alchemy in its current SR5 form is anything other than crap.
Until I do, my position will likely remain unchanged. smile.gif
Shinobi Killfist
QUOTE (Tymeaus Jalynsfein @ Feb 4 2014, 05:07 PM) *
Does not change the fact that I liked Alchemy in SR4A, and absolutely despise it in SR5. The idea of potions/scroll type magic in SR5 is just dumb (and to me, that is exactly what it feels like in SR5), in my opinion. Completely and utterly. That is how I feel.


I'm serious about this, but what was to like with Alchemy in SR4A. It did pretty much nothing.
Tymeaus Jalynsfein
QUOTE (Shinobi Killfist @ Feb 5 2014, 02:18 PM) *
I'm serious about this, but what was to like with Alchemy in SR4A. It did pretty much nothing.


I disagree... Magical Compounds were a fundamental application of Alchemy. I heavily dislike the "have a spell create a potion" effect of the new Alchemy.
I doubly hate that you now have to buy a spell twice if you want to potentially cast it as well as potentially alchemize it.

Alchemy was not powerful, took time and required effort. And you received some interesting benefits from it. But it was Distinctly Different from Spellcasting. Now, Bleh... eek.gif wobble.gif frown.gif
I Loved that. It was niche, to be sure, but Alchemy is niche anyways, so that never bothered me at all.
Machiavelli
100% agree. At least alchemy in SR4 had the use, that you could create orichalcum with it and become rich.
Tymeaus Jalynsfein
Crafting of Reagents was also a fundamental application of Alchemy in SR4A.
That would have been a perfect application for it in SR5, since Reagents can alter how Spellcasting functions.
Absolutely no need for "spell in a potion effects" in SR5. Horribly implemented... eek.gif
Jack VII
TJ, you do know that Alchemy is the skill used to harvest reagents in SR5, right?
Tymeaus Jalynsfein
QUOTE (Jack VII @ Feb 8 2014, 08:02 AM) *
TJ, you do know that Alchemy is the skill used to harvest reagents in SR5, right?


Yes, and that I have no problem with that... same skill in SR4A. smile.gif
Spells in a bottle I have a problem with. And when I talk about poor implementation, that is what I am referring to, generally. *shrug*
Shinobi Killfist
QUOTE (Tymeaus Jalynsfein @ Feb 8 2014, 09:56 AM) *
Crafting of Reagents was also a fundamental application of Alchemy in SR4A.
That would have been a perfect application for it in SR5, since Reagents can alter how Spellcasting functions.
Absolutely no need for "spell in a potion effects" in SR5. Horribly implemented... eek.gif


Except it was a fairly pointless fluff ability in SR4 and if it was still like that would remain a pointless fluff ability.

The only issue I have with it, jst like 4e universal magical theory is it is a fundemental change done over ngiht in the game world. The setting easily supported the spell in the bottle idea with anchoring, this skill just a temporary anchor. It is very setting appropriate outside the sudden unexplained advance. Hopefully the magic book will give the back story on how it appeared.
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