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> Rules for strangling a character?, Where are they?
JongWK
post May 3 2004, 06:13 PM
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I've been asked to help design a character, whose player wants to use a wire to strangle people. The problem is that I don't remember where rules for that are. Cannon Companion?

Thanks!
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FlakJacket
post May 3 2004, 06:22 PM
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There are rules for holding your breath/oxygen deprivation in the Companion. But I'm not sure that they'd be any use to you. AFAIK, when you use a garotte or strangle someone- if you're doing it right- then it's more a case of constricting the blood vessels in the neck and depriving the brain of nutrients.

If you're using something really thin and strong then you also have the possibility of causing physical damage as it cuts through the neck but I'll ignore that since it causes a mess and then you might as well have used a knife.

You'll probably have to come up with your own rules on it. Unfortunately I have no real knowledge about it so can't really be much help I'm afarid.
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Kagetenshi
post May 3 2004, 06:24 PM
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More oxygen than nutrients, but yeah, it's more blood-related than breathing-related (though that's an added bonus).

~J
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FlakJacket
post May 3 2004, 06:27 PM
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Well I kinda classed oxygen as a nutrient but thanks for making it clear. :)
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Arethusa
post May 3 2004, 06:40 PM
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Assuming that you're referring to a garrote, which is effectively using a wire for strangulation, there are no canon rules. I'd suggest a couple strength tests followed by a body test. Ultimately, keep in mind that while garrotes are effective, if you have full access to your target (say, sneaking up behind a standing guard), an arm over his mouth, a quick twist of his neck, and a deep and long stab to his kidney in the opposite direction will put him down much more quickly with much less noise and much more reliability. Or, you know, so I hear.

Also, keep in mind that even though garrotes ultimately kill by strangulation, they definitely cut quite deeply and broadly across the neck and make a pretty big mess of things.
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DeadNeon
post May 3 2004, 06:49 PM
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Also regarding garrotes and physical damage: They tend to crush the windpipe whether they cut through the neck or not.
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Shadow
post May 3 2004, 06:59 PM
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When you stab him with the knife, like Arethusa said, do it to his lung, not his kidney. Once the knife enters the lung he won't be making any noise louder than a *gasp*.

Remember when you were a kid and your older sibling punched you in the stomach when you weren't ready? You dropped to the ground like a sack of potatoes. That is because your lungs collapsed. Same thing, except when they have a hole in them they don't re-inflate.

If you use a garrot of some kind make sure it's thin, strong, and has a not tied in the middle. Ideally the not should be placed on, or just above the adams apple.

Of course if someone has a dermal sheaf or dermal plating I am not sure how useful a garrot would be.
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kevyn668
post May 3 2004, 07:02 PM
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How about (STR+3)L. Physical. Per Phase. And then resolve it as melee combat with bonuses for "Oppent held" or something. Only maybe instead of causing damage if the defender gets more successes he gets out or something?

Just tossin' out ideas...
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booklord
post May 3 2004, 07:17 PM
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Just to be be clear.....

We're talking about using normal wire to strangle someone not mono-wire... Right? Very early in Shadowrun ( 1rst Edition ) I had a character with 2 cyber arms who tried to strangle someone with mono-wire. Got a little messy.
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kevyn668
post May 3 2004, 07:27 PM
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Sentry Elimination 101 :D

QUOTE (Shadow)
When you stab him with the knife, like Arethusa said, do it to his lung, not his kidney. Once the knife enters the lung he won't be making any noise louder than a *gasp*.

Remember when you were a kid and your older sibling punched you in the stomach when you weren't ready? You dropped to the ground like a sack of potatoes. That is because your lungs collapsed. Same thing, except when they have a hole in them they don't re-inflate.

If you use a garrot of some kind make sure it's thin, strong, and has a not tied in the middle. Ideally the not should be placed on, or just above the adams apple.

Of course if someone has a dermal sheaf or dermal plating I am not sure how useful a garrot would be.


:dead:
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Kagetenshi
post May 3 2004, 07:28 PM
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Yeah, 'cause it's not possible. You cannot apply enough pressure to strangle someone, even slightly, with monowire without slicing their head off.

~J
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booklord
post May 3 2004, 07:36 PM
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QUOTE
Yeah, 'cause it's not possible. You cannot apply enough pressure to strangle someone, even slightly, with monowire without slicing their head off.


Well I know that ... now. :twirl:
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Kagetenshi
post May 3 2004, 07:42 PM
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Fair enough :)

~J
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Arethusa
post May 3 2004, 07:46 PM
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QUOTE (Shadow)
When you stab him with the knife, like Arethusa said, do it to his lung, not his kidney. Once the knife enters the lung he won't be making any noise louder than a *gasp*.

Remember when you were a kid and your older sibling punched you in the stomach when you weren't ready? You dropped to the ground like a sack of potatoes. That is because your lungs collapsed. Same thing, except when they have a hole in them they don't re-inflate.

If you use a garrot of some kind make sure it's thin, strong, and has a not tied in the middle. Ideally the not should be placed on, or just above the adams apple.

Of course if someone has a dermal sheaf or dermal plating I am not sure how useful a garrot would be.

The lower abdomen long stab is debilitating, and coupling it with having your neck likely simultaneously broken is pretty significant; stabbing a lung isn't, as he's still got another lung and can still resist (not to mention that it's difficult to keep an arm over his face and stab for the lungs), even if he'll have a lot of trouble speaking. I wouldn't suggest a lung stab over anything else, really. Of course, you know, this is all theoretical. If any special warfare operators want to pop in and lay down some definitive technique, go right ahead.

And, uh, yeah. Monowire garrote = expensive loop o' decapitation.
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Lilt
post May 3 2004, 08:55 PM
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The Thugs (AKA Thugees), a religious extremist group following Kali in India, used to use a piece of cloth with a coin tied into one end for weight. The technique used was to sneak up behind a victim (often with other people nearby to distract the victim and hold them still) and swing the cloth so that the weight carried it around the victim's neck. The weighted end of the cloth was then caught, twisted with the un-weighted end, and the knuckles of the strangler were pushed into the neck vertibrae to tighten it even more.

As for damage code, IIRC you can't stay concious for that long after your blood supply is cut-off. 3, maybe 4 heart-beats?
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Arethusa
post May 3 2004, 09:02 PM
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You can actually hold out in somewhat diminishing capacity for a remarkable amount of time. (Body / 2 + 6) seconds, maybe more. Of course, without extensive training and personal awareness, these seconds are spent in abject fear and confusion, but that's something else.
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Lilt
post May 3 2004, 09:15 PM
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Hmm. What would be the TN to melee-attack someone behind you? IE: to break the hold. I'd imagine it would be hard to pull the garotte off your neck, it digging in and all, so I'm thinking stamping on toes and elbows to guts. I'd imagine there would be a small penalty for impared visibility, maybe a penalty for not being able to strike as effectively behind you (at-least on unarmed attacks) and your strangler would probably be at a penalty as he has to keep his hands in a set position (well, he could move them but then he'd no longer be strangling the target)
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Arethusa
post May 3 2004, 09:18 PM
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It is, but keep in mind that garrotes don't work very well unless they're contacting bare flesh; even a tall collar is enough to basically make them worthless, which is why they're such specific weapon and why a knife is generally a far better choice. I'd factor such things into the initial attack test. Maybe a Quickness test followed by some opposed Strength tests? Kind of a hard one to call.
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kevyn668
post May 3 2004, 09:22 PM
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QUOTE
As for damage code, IIRC you can't stay concious for that long after your blood supply is cut-off. 3, maybe 4 heart-beats?


I dunno, I'd say its longer than that. Remember, game-balance. Otherwise every munchkin and his sister would go around choking people.

I know you guys hate this, but:
In the movies it always takes at least a few seconds. Since SR seems like it uses Hollywood physics, I tend to look to movies when I need explainations.

QUOTE
Lilt Posted on May 3 2004, 09:15 PM
  Hmm. What would be the TN to melee-attack someone behind you? IE: to break the hold. I'd imagine it would be hard to pull the garotte off your neck, it digging in and all, so I'm thinking stamping on toes and elbows to guts. I'd imagine there would be a small penalty for impared visibility, maybe a penalty for not being able to strike as effectively behind you (at-least on unarmed attacks) and your strangler would probably be at a penalty as he has to keep his hands in a set position (well, he could move them but then he'd no longer be strangling the target)


TN: 6 to 8. (depends on my mood)

I'm sorry everybody. I'm in rapid fire GM mode. I just pick an answer and run with it. I'm actually quite open to debate. :)
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A Clockwork Lime
post May 3 2004, 09:44 PM
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The Manriki-Gusari handles it through Stun damage while you have an opponent ensnared. That's pretty much exactly what strangling should entail, especially since once unconscious killing them doesn't take much effort.

Just use the rules for grappling and have the target resist your Damage Code of your weapon, such as (STR)M Stun if using your barehands.

With that out of the way, you just need to come up with a stat block for a garotte.

Garotte: (STR+1)S Stun damage, but only inflicts damage if a grappling attempt first succeeds (making Stealth and Surprise Tests your friend). Weight is neglible, and price is pretty cheap (20 nuyen, most of which accounts for the handles). Monowire Garrotes increase their damage as if dikoted and shifts it to physical damage, thus boosting it to (STR+2)D. Weight remains the same but price increases to 2,000 nuyen plus the cost of whatever you're going to use for handles that can retract the line (500 nuyen?). Improvised Garottes (chain, optical cable, etc.) does only (STR+1)M Stun but costs absolutely nothing. Concealability is pretty much on the 12-15 level. Availability should be around 8/1 week, 14/2 weeks, and Always respectively.

How's that for a base to work off of?
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Arethusa
post May 3 2004, 10:00 PM
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I'd add a physical damage component of (Str+1)L to that (Str+1)S Stun. Slicing through your neck is decidedly messy and unpleasant.

Other than that, though, pretty solid, I think, though I'd make normal garrotes far easier to get ahold of than 8/1 week, and definitely 16 concealability; they are quite tiny.
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hobgoblin
post May 3 2004, 10:38 PM
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and can be made by a usefull length of wire and some handles (to lengths of pipe, wood or similar).

the nasty thing about a garotte is that when your trapped in one its allmost imposible to get out unless you get into contact with the user, and as the garotte allows him to keep you at allmost an arms length compared to face or body grip where your in direct contact with him and may well send a elbow into his side or similar if you dont panic.

still my idea of a clean takedown would be cloroform soked cloth or similar over someones face and when they pass out your free to do whatever you feel like.

just make sure that your target cant kick anything noisy over or similar...
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Arethusa
post May 3 2004, 11:17 PM
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Uh, I don't know what you think a garrote is, but you have to be in direct contact with your victim to you use it. You are absolutely not at arm's length. This thing's not a lasso.
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kevyn668
post May 3 2004, 11:28 PM
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QUOTE (Arethusa)
Uh, I don't know what you think a garrote is, but you have to be in direct contact with your victim to you use it. You are absolutely not at arm's length. This thing's not a lasso.

Not so. There are manuvers that allow you to place the target in an almost completely helpless posistion.

Its hard to discribe, I'll try:

You sneak up behind some bloke and loop the garrot around his neck, you then want to cross one wrist over the other and pivot your body while bending forward to aprox a 45 degree angle. The target's shoulder blades should be touching yours and he will be strangled by his own body weight.

Not very effective against Trolls or if the attacker is a dwarf...but there you have it.
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Swing Kid
post May 3 2004, 11:28 PM
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QUOTE (JongWK)
I've been asked to help design a character, whose player wants to use a wire to strangle people.

Just going out on a limb here, but does your friend there work in customer service?
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