[SR5] Archetypes, Numbers not adding up Options

[BreederofPuppets]

Am I missing something? I was trying to re-build the street samurai archetype to see how they afforded the gear augmentation listed. However, I keep coming up with 5.2 essence loss, and a nuyen cost of 560,000. With priority A in resources, you get 450,000 nuyen, plus up to 20,000 more from Karma (totaling 490,000). Where did the other 70,000 come from?

Keep in mind, I have not totaled up the Street Samurai's weapons, ammunition, and gear. So he could easily have more than 100,000 Y in extra gear and augmentation. I figure I must have missed something. As the extra finacnes would seriously help out my current character, I would love to know what.

[Jack VII]

Just a quick question: Is this your first time with Shadowrun?

The only reason I am asking is because it is a time-honored tradition for the character archetypes to always be (usually hilariously) wrong. No one really knows why this happens. There have been a lot of reasons given over the years (the characters are usually built semi-early in the process apparently and don't get adjusted for later changes). But this has been the case from 1st through 5th.

In other words, don't use them as a guide for chargen. I also believe there is a threadnaught with suggested fixes over on the CGL board.

[Critias]

I'm not sure how you can say "no one really knows why this happens," and then in the very next sentence explain exactly why this consistently happens.

Yes, archetypes are screwed up. Yes, it tends to happen because they're built early in the process, before character generation has been completely nailed down. The same way that the playtest characters people used wouldn't be rules legal today, some of the archetypes don't add up. If folks knew how many changes got crammed in at the tail end of the process (in response to playtester notes, for instance), how many price changes happened at the 11th hour, how many priorities were tweaked one way or the other, etc, etc, I think the "why" of this would be very clear. It's compounded by the issue that the archetypes are made by multiple different people, some of whom are more "Johnny On The Spot" than others about making last minute revisions...and voila. You get some that are more effective than others, some that are more flavorful than others, some that match their artwork better than others, and also, yes, some that are more rules-legal than others.

[Jack VII]

@Critias, The reason I say that is simply because we do basically know the reason (rule changes), but then the problem keeps occurring, even though there is a very long history of it occurring. Sure, I think we all get that the industry is apparently much worse than others when it comes to last minute decisions (imagine if the automotive manufacturing industry worked in this way), but it is still a known flaw and the designers know that those changes are likely to jack up something. We have 20 years of history to show that Archetypes are particularly vulnerable to this last minute tinkering.

Personally, I don't use the archetypes for anything other than art and a suggested gear and skills list, so it really doesn't bother me. I'm just trying to give the OP some context. I would also add that errors in the Archetypes are actually a fun little quirk to Shadowrun. I think I would quit the game if y'all released an edition where they were all correct.

[Bigity]

I'm pretty sure I've seen Critias mention (though it could have been someone else- I'm not going back to the other forum to check) the starter box characters aren't rules legal either, each had something special added.

Basically, SR has a long standing tradition of the archetypes breaking the rules, and I would imagine it's not super high on the list of stuff to fix.

[Glyph]

I can't judge SR5, but SR4 wasn't that bad, mistake-wise. A few things like uncouth charcters not being charged double for their social skills, a spirit bane quality that gave double the points it should have, a face with a limo she couldn't afford, a covert ops specialist with a gun she wasn't proficient in, etc. It seems a lot when you list it out, but spread out over all of the archetypes, it only adds up to the odd mistake here or there.

The playability of the archetypes is a bigger issue, though. They all at least resemble their purported function, but some, such as the bounty hunter, covert ops specialist, or weapons specialist, were all but unplayable. Judging by some of the comments I have heard, SR5 might have that problem with some of its archetypes as well.

[Critias]

I'm pretty sure I've seen Critias mention (though it could have been someone else- I'm not going back to the other forum to check) the starter box characters aren't rules legal either, each had something special added.

Basically, SR has a long standing tradition of the archetypes breaking the rules, and I would imagine it's not super high on the list of stuff to fix.

Yeah, that was me. I'm the one that wrote 'em all, so, yeah, I was the one that said as much over on the forums. Each of them started rules legal (painfully so, in some cases, as they were changed four or five or six times each, while we kept changing the rules), but then a decision was made to relax about that a little bit, and worry about making sure they were playable, and forgivingly so, for the folks buying those particular boxed sets. So they got tossed a bone here and there, a little better starting gear, a few extra skill points, or what-have-you.

Also, it's important to note that the dossier characters aren't all made with the full spectrum of rules available in the SR5 core game. Some of 'em had gear lists trimmed down to account for the limited selection in the starter boxes, and that sort of thing.

[Sendaz]

And I do not see a problem with a prepackaged archetype getting a little leeway on the points, not unlike how some systems offer a package plan that grants a small discount on ability costs that correspond to the package.

Course a note should be left in the GM section alerting them that the premades will have a few variances so they don't drive themselves crazy trying to make new builds which don't quite match up to the premades or have players bugging them over same. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/nyahnyah.gif)

[Bigity]

Yeah, that was me. I'm the one that wrote 'em all, so, yeah, I was the one that said as much over on the forums. Each of them started rules legal (painfully so, in some cases, as they were changed four or five or six times each, while we kept changing the rules), but then a decision was made to relax about that a little bit, and worry about making sure they were playable, and forgivingly so, for the folks buying those particular boxed sets. So they got tossed a bone here and there, a little better starting gear, a few extra skill points, or what-have-you.

Also, it's important to note that the dossier characters aren't all made with the full spectrum of rules available in the SR5 core game. Some of 'em had gear lists trimmed down to account for the limited selection in the starter boxes, and that sort of thing.

Yea it wasn't a complaint mind, just information. Especially in starter boxes, it's more important they work to explain the game/setting.

Though I'm curious if they would be allowed for Missions play. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)

[Chrome Head]

I haven't read the whole thread, but I had created pretty much the same thing before. Here's what I had found:

[ Spoiler ]

Street Samurai p. 112
- Physical Limit is listed as 8 (9), it should be 8

Covert Ops p. 113
- Physical Condition Monitor should be 11, not 10
- Contact with connection 3, Loyalty 5, which is over the limit of 7 total
- Missing a "Notes" for dwarven racial abilities

Occult Investigator p. 114
- Magician listed as a quality

Street Magician p.115
- Social limit should be 8, not 7
- Prejudice (Mild) should be Prejudiced (Biased)

Combat Mage p. 116
- Physical limit should be 5, not 6
- Magician listed as a quality

Brawling Adept p. 117
- Too much karma spent: Skills are at category B (36/5) (attributes are definitely A, with 24 attribute points spent) but actually we see that there are 43 active skill points spent and 5 skill groups, the minimum karma to spend to get to that number in this case is 16 karma (5 skills 1, 1 skill at 2), 10 net karma are spent on qualities, and 5 more karma spent on contacts, I haven’t checked the gear but we already reach 31 karma spent when the limit is 25 at chargen.

Weapons Specialist p. 118
- Social limit should be 5, not 4

Face p. 119
- Physical limit listed as 3, should be 4
- Mental limit listed as 5, should be 6

Tank p. 120
- Physical Condition Monitor should be 14 not 13, taking augmentations into account
- Physical limit listed as 10, his stats would give a 9, his augmented stats would give an 11

Decker p. 121
- Mental limit listed as 6(7), it's actually always 7
- Listed augmentations add up to 0.8E, but essence listed as 5.0
- Missing a "Notes" for dwarven racial abilities

Technomancer p. 122
- Social limit should be 7, not 6
- Init listed as 8+1D6, should be 9+1D6
- Insomnia quality: should mention severity
- Prejudice (vocal) should be Prejudiced (outspoken)

Gunslinger adept p. 123
- Fake SIN rating 5, fake licence rating 5, this goes above availability limit of 12
- Missing a "Notes Natural low light vision" which appears for ex. for the Face p. 119

Drone Rigger p. 124
- Init is listed as 7+1D6, but her augmentations (reaction enhancers) brings that up to 7(9)+1D6
- Mental limit should be 6, not 5
- Missing a "Notes Natural low light vision" which appears for ex. for the Face p. 119

Smuggler p. 125
- Two attributes are hard-maxed: intuition 5 and charisma 4
- Essence is 4.9, yet he's got a control rig rating 2 which costs 2E, not to mention the other augmentations
- 12 points of knowledge and language skills, attributes allow for 14
- He's got 29 skills and no skill group, that's less than C priority (28/2) allows. We know that we have Resources A, Race B for Troll (0), he's got no magic (E) and 15 points of attributes (priority D is 14), so it clearly seems that skills are at C.

Sprawl Ganger p. 126
- Init listed as 8+1D6, but it should be 7+1D6
- All 3 limits should be 1 more than what's written (rounding error?)

Bounty Hunter p. 127
- Physical limit should be 9, not 7
- Social limit should be 5, not 4

Recurring presentation inconsistency: limits and init are sometimes like this 10 + 3D6, and sometimes like 8(10) + 1(3)D6.

And here's a link.

[Redjack]

Yeah, that was me. I'm the one that wrote 'em all, so, yeah, I was the one that said as much over on the forums.

No one (at least no one using their brain) is holding you responsible for the final errors just for creating the initial character. If you proofed them and blessed them as compliant to the final rules, that is a different story.

The customer complaints about fitness of product due to the poor state of proofing/editing is a valid gripe. We understand it is a process. We simply are frustrated that it is not a priority for Catalyst.

[Smash]

I've always taken them to just be example characters not necessarily example starting characters, albeit more useful if perhaps they were.

Is the Combat Mage supposed to be a changeling? He doesn't look particularly human (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)