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> Trolls & Ware, 5th ed. Sorry.
yesferatu
post Feb 18 2014, 02:22 PM
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So I've read the core 5th ed book and the errata 100 times and I still don't know how much trolls should pay for augmentation.
I've heard arguments all over the place on either side. So can someone break down the racial costs thing once and for all?
Were there modding costs for vehicles and equipment that I didn't see?
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Stahlseele
post Feb 18 2014, 02:31 PM
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The 50% increased cost was meant to be for lifecycle and external gear that has to be handled or put on like clothing.
AS WORDED it is for ware as well, as per RAW. If that did not make it into the Errata somehow . .
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Shortstraw
post Feb 18 2014, 02:42 PM
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Original: “Trolls receive Thermographic Vision, +1 Reach, and Dermal Armor, but they also receive the disadvantage of having to pay an additional fifty percent for gear because everything—including cyberware and bioware—must be specially modified to meet their massive physical requirements.”

Errata: “Trolls receive Thermographic Vision, +1 Reach, and Dermal Armor, but they also have the disadvantage of having their Lifestyle costs doubled to reflect the costs of adapting everything they use—especially their gear, including
cyberware or bioware—to meet their massive physical requirements.”

They used to have to pay more for stuff now it is just double lifestyle.
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Stahlseele
post Feb 18 2014, 02:43 PM
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OK, no, that wording is very ambigious . .
Gear/Ware NEVER fell under Lifestyle-Cost . .
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Lobo0705
post Feb 18 2014, 02:56 PM
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From my understanding this was something that was brought up almost immediately when the book first came out, and the intention of the errata is that they simply pay double lifestyle. That's it.

None of their other items are more money. ONLY their lifestyle costs.
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Stahlseele
post Feb 18 2014, 03:00 PM
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Lifestyle is for the Fluff-Parts. Food, Gas, Rent, etc.
Nothing else.
They should have scrapped the mentioning of gear and ware completely.
SR3 had +% based on metatype for dorf and Troll, what's wrong with that?
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Shortstraw
post Feb 18 2014, 03:06 PM
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Trolls eat more, need larger residences (and furniture) etc so a lifestyle cost increase does make sense.
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sk8bcn
post Feb 18 2014, 03:32 PM
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QUOTE (Stahlseele @ Feb 18 2014, 04:00 PM) *
Lifestyle is for the Fluff-Parts. Food, Gas, Rent, etc.
Nothing else.
They should have scrapped the mentioning of gear and ware completely.
SR3 had +% based on metatype for dorf and Troll, what's wrong with that?


Better that way. Easier to keep track off (no arguings about what should cost more and what not) and makes more sense.

I mean, when you buy some XXXL clothes it's usually not the raw material that you pay additionnally but an increased price due to the size of the market.

When you buy your cyberware, it's the technology you pay, not the extra metal for the size of your cybered arm.

ps: I'll use that for SR3, it's a good move tbh.
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Grinder
post Feb 18 2014, 03:58 PM
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QUOTE (Shortstraw @ Feb 18 2014, 03:42 PM) *
Errata: “Trolls receive Thermographic Vision, +1 Reach, and Dermal Armor, but they also have the disadvantage of having their Lifestyle costs doubled to reflect the costs of adapting everything they use—especially their gear, including
cyberware or bioware—to meet their massive physical requirements.”


Wait. this is the text of the actual errata? Seriouslyß
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Shortstraw
post Feb 18 2014, 04:05 PM
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Yes.
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Sendaz
post Feb 18 2014, 04:20 PM
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Afraid so,

Makes you feel nostalgic for just 50% increase eh? (IMG:style_emoticons/default/nyahnyah.gif)

So the errata needs errata already? (IMG:style_emoticons/default/sarcastic.gif)
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Tymeaus Jalynsfe...
post Feb 18 2014, 04:22 PM
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QUOTE (Sendaz @ Feb 18 2014, 09:20 AM) *
Afraid so,

Makes you feel nostalgic for just 50% increase eh? (IMG:style_emoticons/default/nyahnyah.gif)

So the errata needs errata already? (IMG:style_emoticons/default/sarcastic.gif)


*sigh* It would seem so.
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Sponge
post Feb 18 2014, 04:24 PM
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It may be somewhat poorly written, but to me the intent is pretty clear: Trolls don't have more expensive gear directly, the costs of adapting their gear is folded into their lifestyle.
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Sendaz
post Feb 18 2014, 04:25 PM
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Could have been worse...

They could have just said NO cyberware was made in Troll or dwarf sizes, so if a troll or dwarf wanted a cyber limb he had to use a human scaled one.

So dwarves could get a height boost while trolls would look enemic. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/nyahnyah.gif)

QUOTE (Sponge @ Feb 18 2014, 12:24 PM) *
It may be somewhat poorly written, but to me the intent is pretty clear: Trolls don't have more expensive gear directly, the costs of adapting their gear is folded into their lifestyle.

Maybe, but how does that reflect when you have the characters on the lower end of the lifestyle scale and the budget for this type of lifestyle wouldn't even cover the added costs associated with the cyber/bio that the lifestyle is supposed to cover?

Or maybe they want dwarves and trolls staying to the lower end lifestyles. Again the IE conspiracy tries to keep 'em down!
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Lobo0705
post Feb 18 2014, 04:55 PM
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I'm not really seeing the a) confusion or b) problem.

In 5e, trolls pay the normal costs for all gear. For lifestyle, they pay:

Streets - Free
Squatter - 1,000
Low - 4,000
Middle - 10,000
High - 20,000
Luxury - 200,000

In 3e, it was a 25% increase in costs to all gear. That makes it, if you enforce it to the letter of the law, prohibitively expensive for many types of gear - especially cyber and bioware.

In 5e, it makes it less of a burden on a PC - especially up to and including Middle Lifestyle, while more of a burden on those in High and Luxury.

Remember that in 3e, it was not uncommon to start with several hundred thousand nuyen worth of cyber/bioware. A troll who purchased 300,000 worth of gear would have to pay an additional 75,000. (for those with Tech A - they have 1 million to spend, and for trolls that would mean basically a 250,000 penalty.)

What they basically did was go away from having extra calculations on every bit of gear, and lump it all into the lifestyle. Is it good move? That's debatable. It certainly is a simpler move - which is what I am assuming they were going for.

For those who believe that trolls are nerfed in 5e, it certainly makes them have a lot more money to be able to spend, unless they are living Luxury Lifestyles - and let's be honest, I've been playing Shadowrun for 25 years, and I can count on one hand the number of characters who have maintained a Luxury Lifestyle for any real period of time - it isn't something that comes up too much.
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Grinder
post Feb 18 2014, 05:38 PM
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QUOTE (Sponge @ Feb 18 2014, 05:24 PM) *
It may be somewhat poorly written, but to me the intent is pretty clear: Trolls don't have more expensive gear directly, the costs of adapting their gear is folded into their lifestyle.


It is extremely poor written. Either cyber and bioware should have increased costs for trolls, then say so directly and don't try to add that to lifestyle costs. But it fits the subpar quality of SR5....
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Stahlseele
post Feb 18 2014, 06:40 PM
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QUOTE (sk8bcn @ Feb 18 2014, 04:32 PM) *
Better that way. Easier to keep track off (no arguings about what should cost more and what not) and makes more sense.

I mean, when you buy some XXXL clothes it's usually not the raw material that you pay additionnally but an increased price due to the size of the market.

When you buy your cyberware, it's the technology you pay, not the extra metal for the size of your cybered arm.

ps: I'll use that for SR3, it's a good move tbh.

Trolls in SR3 pay 20% more for clothing and Gear and Lifestyle, but not Cyber/Bio-Ware.
Dorfs in SR3 pay 10% more for clothing and Gear and Lifestyle, but not Cyber/Bio-Ware.
Or something like that, i don't remember the actual numbers but it was something like that.
And, most importantly:
THIS DOES NOT APPLY TO STUFF BOUGHT IN CHARACTER GENERATION!
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Daier Mune
post Feb 18 2014, 06:51 PM
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Not to muddy the waters, here, but I'd actually think that Trolls wouldn't have to spend extra for high end living. Most High-end and Luxury services are customized for the user, anyway, so having to accomodate a Troll or a Dwarf client wouldn't be that big of a deal (10% markup at most). I imagine that the lower lifestyles would suffer the most, as housing, clothing and food for those markes are produced on assembly lines and targeted at the average human.
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Sengir
post Feb 18 2014, 06:56 PM
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QUOTE (Lobo0705 @ Feb 18 2014, 05:55 PM) *
I'm not really seeing the a) confusion or b) problem.

Me neither. Trolls pay double the normal lifestyle cost, which subsumes any costs they'd have to pay due to being bigger, heavier, hungrier, et cetera. What is ambiguous about that?
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Jack VII
post Feb 18 2014, 06:56 PM
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QUOTE
Errata: “Trolls receive Thermographic Vision, +1 Reach, and Dermal Armor, but they also have the disadvantage of having their Lifestyle costs doubled to reflect the costs of adapting everything they use—especially their gear, including cyberware or bioware—to meet their massive physical requirements.”

Come on, this isn't hard. The above has been slightly adjusted to note what the lifestyle increase represents. Their gear and cyber do cost more, but for ease of use, it is simply absorbed into their increased lifestyle.

Sure, it doesn't make much sense for a Troll with a Street lifestyle to essentially not pay a premium, but it's an abstraction, so it isn't perfect.
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X-Kalibur
post Feb 18 2014, 06:58 PM
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Wait, when did we get an actual Errata? I thought we just had the quick and dirty Missions Errata?
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Jack VII
post Feb 18 2014, 07:00 PM
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QUOTE (X-Kalibur @ Feb 18 2014, 12:58 PM) *
Wait, when did we get an actual Errata? I thought we just had the quick and dirty Missions Errata?

CGL released a 3-4 page Errata document about two weeks ago. You can get it for free from the usual suspects. It's not much (a lot fo the major issues already being covered by the Missions Errata), but it's a start.
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Lobo0705
post Feb 18 2014, 07:06 PM
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QUOTE (Stahlseele @ Feb 18 2014, 01:40 PM) *
Trolls in SR3 pay 20% more for clothing and Gear and Lifestyle, but not Cyber/Bio-Ware.
Dorfs in SR3 pay 10% more for clothing and Gear and Lifestyle, but not Cyber/Bio-Ware.
Or something like that, i don't remember the actual numbers but it was something like that.
And, most importantly:
THIS DOES NOT APPLY TO STUFF BOUGHT IN CHARACTER GENERATION!
------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------



SR3 - page 272:

RACIAL MODIFICATIONS
Some gear just isn’t built for a troll to use, or even a dwarf
or an ork, for that matter. Most gear comes in meta-friendly
variants, but it tends to be more costly and difficult to find.
When buying gear that needs modification for a dwarf-sized
person, up the price 10 percent. For troll-modified gear,
increase the price 25 percent.
These pricing adjustments also apply to vehicles described
in this section, which are also available in metahuman-adjusted
versions. Most of these reinforce the seating and/or adjust
the size of the manual controls, and are also available for
humans, orks or elves with disabilities. When driving a vehicle
not adjusted as necessary, a character receives a +3 modifier to
all Driving Tests.


This says "gear". It doesn't say "except cyberware". I agree that it seems punitive to make them pay for it, but again - a strict reading of the rules is that you pay 25% more for troll modified gear. Personally, we didn't make them pay it for cyber/bioware - but that was a house rule, and not RAW.

SR3 - page 60

ASSIGNING RESOURCES
The last category, Resources, provides your character with
the starting cash to gear up for street-level warfare. As with all
the other categories, the higher the priority assigned to
Resources, the more nuyen a character has available, from a
scant 5,000 nuyen at Priority E to a whopping 1,000,000 nuyen
for Priority A. Players use this money to purchase their characters’
starting gear, including cyberware, weapons, contacts, foci
and magical items, cyberdecks, vehicles and plenty of other
toys. Most equipment is described in the Street Gear section,
beginning on p. 270. You can purchase gear in any order you
wish. When purchasing gear during character creation, do not
apply the Street Index multiplier (see p. 273) to the cost.
Starting characters must have the money to cover the full cost
of an item (no credit for you yet, chummer—you gotta prove
yourself on the street first!). All gear is also subject to gamemaster
approval. Just because you can purchase something doesn’t
mean you should be allowed to get it at the start of the game.
Finally, no piece of gear purchased at character creation can
have a rating higher than 6 or an Availability higher than 8. (For
more information on Availability, see Street Gear, p. 272.)
As a pointer, don’t forget to buy ammo and clips for your
guns. Nothing is more embarrassing than hitting that first fire
fight with empty weapons!
Each character MUST buy a lifestyle (see Lifestyle, p. 62) at
character creation. Certain other things, such as contacts (see
Contacts, p. 61) can only be purchased at character creation.
Special rules apply when purchasing magical gear and cyberware
(see Magical Gear, below and Cyberware, p. 61).
Players need not spend starting resources down to the last
nuyen. For suggestions on what to do with leftover money, see
Finishing Touches, p. 62.

It specifically says you do not have to pay for street index. Please show me where it says you do not have to pay for racial modification in char gen.
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Sponge
post Feb 18 2014, 07:36 PM
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A piece of cyberware that's Troll-sized mostly just has more metal/plastic in it, it doesn't have 50% more of the expensive bits - circuitry, amortized manufacturing costs (labour, R&D, capital investment), and so on. It's pretty much the same for just about any piece of gear - the expensive parts are not the handle/casing. And arguably bioware as well - is the expensive part really the price per pound of the meat they're sticking into you, or is it the way it's grown and all the development costs behind it? It's certainly plausible that you'd only need a bigger vat and more raw protein to make Troll-sized muscle toner instead of Human-sized.


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yesferatu
post Feb 18 2014, 07:43 PM
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Lifestyle, Gear and Augmentation are all different things. The errata only confuses the issue further.
If they're not paying extra for it, why even mention bioware, cyberware or gear? What's so hard about saying "troll Lifestyle costs more"?
I don't think anyone has a problem with trolls paying more for pants. It's just terribly written, which is apparently a theme in this edition.
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