Character Generation - Best Bang for the Buck, 5th ed. Options

[yesferatu]

So I am making a 5th ed. shaman and I'm trying to figure which priorities are the most efficient.
For example, the Attribute priority provides 24 points. Buying up attributes later will cost new rating X5, so getting those as high as possible first saves a ton of karma.
Magic as a B priority is only 2 Magic points below priority A as well as 2 skill points and 3 spells. I think you could make most of that up with other skills or build karma.
Is it more expensive to buy skills up later - since there are a lot of them - or is it more efficient to take them as a higher priority?

So, what do you think? Are certain priorities worth more than others?
Has anyone done the math?

[tjn]

As a straight shaman, you only need (in an optimization sense) two normal attributes at a high level. If you make sure to keep yourself behind hard cover (or the team's troll), you don't need to have a bunch of physical attributes for combat (but of course, every bit helps). On the other hand, there are a ton of magical skills and you'd have to pick and choose at almost any priority, so skills should never be pushed too far down the priority table.

Personally, I'd probably focus on the magic aspects and go CDABE: go with elf, grab exceptional attribute (magic) and focused concentration, focus on Wil/Cha while leaving the rest at 2's, and using whatever extra skills were left to flesh out a face subrole since it synergizes well with the heavy charisma. The one problem is a disturbing lack of cash, and a resulting lack of foci. My usual solution is to steal anything not nailed down once the game starts, but you could switch meta and resources and play a human. Less drain dice, less Edge, more karma spent getting all the other attributes to 2, and a diminished face subrole, but more toys. Either way, my goal with that character would be to never get into combat situations, but if they do, find a dark corner and let the spirits do the heavy lifting.

But that's the thing: everything turns on what are you intending to accomplish with this character. If you're going to go with a mage mixing it up in the midst of combat, yeah, you're going to need a higher attribute priority, but you're likely going to have to skimp in overall magical capability and focus on one area of magic. If your focus is to be adept at all the branches of magic, then the character, by itself, will probably have to down rate the attribute priority in favor of skills, which means the character isn't long for this world if s/he makes a habit of running into gun battles. Because of that, what your focus, or role, for the character and what you want to accomplish with the character is going to dictate which priorities are worth more than others.

[yesferatu]

I'm not sure I agree with that.
Everyone needs Reaction & Intuition these days. At the very least, I'm going to want high Willpower and Charisma. That's 4 stats I'm eventually going to want to boost.
The only skills I need at the core are magical, so Spellcasting & Summoning, maybe some others. I can get 5 in those two like 2 or 3 different ways.
I'm mainly trying to figure out what order to put Attributes, Skills & Magic and which priority will save the most karma in the long run.

[tjn]

By the "everyone needs" argument, that means you "need" body as well, because every character will take damage at some point, and then it becomes a slippery slope argument, because every attribute is "needed" within the scope of shadowrunning. However you're not going to have enough points to cover every contingency, and the game is designed around the conceit that you will have areas where you are deficient, but your teammates should be there to cover that weakness. Have a clear idea of what the character's role is, and focus your character creation resources on that role.

To me, getting the best bang for your buck requires more than just a karma evaluation, it has to take into consideration how you're going to play the character. If the character never has to roll a certain stat, devoting resources to that stat is a waste, even if that character has, mathmatically, more karma than a different distribution.

As for magical skills, yes the two main ones are spellcasting and summoning, but every mage should grab counterspelling and binding as well. Now take into account you need some skills at the basics of shadowrunning, because not having to default on running when you have to gfto or etiquette when you try not be noticed as out of place is important. Which means that if you're thinking of doing any sort of serious attempts at enchanting, you're going to quickly run out of skill points unless you went with skills at A. Which, speaking of, is the best thing you can do if you are primarily concerned about karma efficiency.

It's easy enough to plug in the karma numbers and see:

[ Spoiler ]

CODE

Total Karma per Priority for Humans
Priority     Metatype    Attributes   Magic      Skills      Resources
A            200         425          215        469         225
B            165         355          125        327         137.5
C            110         285           55        203          70
D             75         250          N/A        146          25
E             20         215          N/A        126           3

Assumptions: Extra special attribute points were spent to increase the magic attribute to 6 first, assuming the magic priority is the lowest possible. Attributes and skills have placed all points in maximizing karma return per point (spending all points to the highest value in a stat before moving to a new stat). Resources are measured in 2k per karma as in character creation, however I don't think that is an accurate exchange, but it's what we have.

Under a strict what gets the most karma at each step, while being a shaman, a DBCAE set up wins, with a result of a total karma of 957. There might be an alternate path to get more, but skills A is just a monster and since magic has to at least be a C to keep being a mage, I kinda doubt it. The fact you can pump your magic back up to 6 with the special attributes makes this array a keeper, despite it being desperately short on nuyen, spells and edge. You could drop attributes a priority or so to recover spells or edge at the cost of overall karma, but nuyen's kinda stuck.

Now if you want any other race, your options are going to be highly limited if you want to keep a magic rating of 6. Skills A just so completely dominates the karma equivalency that it eliminates Troll mages as a viable choice if karma efficiency is one of your main concerns. Similarly, because dwarves are better at being a mage than orks, and dwarves and orks have the same priority costs, orks are out of the running as well, under this metric. If you go Elf or Dwarf, you have to raise race to keep a magic of 6, which would force attributes down to D. Without going thoroughly going through the options, I think elves and dwarves would come close and have some unique advantages (most notabily more drain dice and natural vision mods), but humans would both have more attributes overall (and thus more karma equivalency), and would be able to place those extra attributes wherever, giving them a flexibility elves and dwarves would lack.

EDIT: Math is hard before coffee.

[yesferatu]

That's exactly what I was looking for, thanks tjn.

[Irion]

If we are allready in the "the most for my karma and fuck how my character does in the beginning":
Leaving the magic low to reduce the costs buying it up again with Karma after you installed ware is another thing. Since you already have priority C on magic and Priority D is only enough Points for a human to get edge up to 7 (which is under the cost-merrit calculation a know brainer since the higher the better)...

[Sengir]

By the "everyone needs" argument, that means you "need" body as well, because every character will take damage at some point

With the newly upped weapon damage, those few soaking dice from your BOD score don't really matter anymore...

Apart from that you're obviously right, skills A simply wins, for any concept.

[FuelDrop]

With the newly upped weapon damage, those few soaking dice from your BOD score don't really matter anymore...

Apart from that you're obviously right, skills A simply wins, for any concept.

A mediocre body is doable if you can get the extra physical boxes through cyberlimbs or the like, but as a general rule having a decent body really pays for itself when a run goes bad and you're in overflow. Odds on that point of body that saves your life will be cheaper than using hand of god, and the extra dice for soak and healing tests are just icing on the cake. A high body really is the gift that keeps on giving if you're in a game with a focus on combat as it means you survive more rounds before being stabilized.

That's my two nuyen.

[yesferatu]

"A simply wins, for any concept. "
See, I thought that too, but Attributes set the limits.

[Sengir]

"A simply wins, for any concept. "
See, I thought that too, but Attributes set the limits.

But without enough skill points, you won't notice the hit caps. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/wink.gif)

The only real disadvantage of Skills A is that you really have to think about what to do with all those points. You get one group at 6 and one at 4, which should cover all your primary needs, and then you have to assign 7 other skills at 6, and another one at 4...did I mention the priority system needs to die a horrible death?

[Tymeaus Jalynsfe...]

But without enough skill points, you won't notice the hit caps. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/wink.gif)

The only real disadvantage of Skills A is that you really have to think about what to do with all those points. You get one group at 6 and one at 4, which should cover all your primary needs, and then you have to assign 7 other skills at 6, and another one at 4...did I mention the priority system needs to die a horrible death?

Why would you assign the maximum possible rating to your skills? That makes no sense at all...

[Sengir]

Maximum possible chargen rating...

[yesferatu]

"Why would you assign the maximum possible rating to your skills? That makes no sense at all... "
Because it's cheaper to get them to 6 off character creation than it is to buy them up later.

Also, yes. Horrible death. It's on my list of 489 hated things.
I wait anxiously for the return of a point-buy or all-karma option.

[Tymeaus Jalynsfe...]

"Why would you assign the maximum possible rating to your skills? That makes no sense at all... "
Because it's cheaper to get them to 6 off character creation than it is to buy them up later.

Also, yes. Horrible death. It's on my list of 489 hated things.
I wait anxiously for the return of a point-buy or all-karma option.

Horrible, Horrible Reason, and completely unrealistic. *sigh*

[yesferatu]

What part of the spirit summoning/fireball slinging/titanium skeleton/Virtual Reality future dystopian game system do you find unrealistic?
Karma awards can vary from game to game. If you don't take advantage of the priority system as written, you'll end up shorting yourself and under-performing.
I'm not going to buy everything at 3s in a system that practically forces players to min/max. I'm sorry if you don't think character optimization is legitimate.

[Tymeaus Jalynsfe...]

What part of the spirit summoning/fireball slinging/titanium skeleton/Virtual Reality future dystopian game system do you find unrealistic?
Karma awards can vary from game to game. If you don't take advantage of the priority system as written, you'll end up shorting yourself and under-performing.
I'm not going to buy everything at 3s in a system that practically forces players to min/max. I'm sorry if you don't think character optimization is legitimate.

I call BS on that line of reasoning. Characters become so ludicrously stupid when you take that route that it breaks the verisimilitude of the game. *shrug*

[yesferatu]

Don't give people 46/10 points in skills or 24 in attributes if you don't expect them to max them.
If I take Magic as my primary, I HAVE to take 6 in magic and 2 skills at 5. I don't have a choice in this edition.
Not to mention that skills max out at 12 now, which means a 6 in something has become AVERAGE.

[Tymeaus Jalynsfe...]

Don't give people 46/10 points in skills or 24 in attributes if you don't expect them to max them.
If I take Magic as my primary, I HAVE to take 6 in magic and 2 skills at 5. I don't have a choice in this edition.
Not to mention that skills max out at 12 now, which means a 6 in something has become AVERAGE.

46/10 is awesome, but with the characters I have put together, I have YET to MAX THEM to your specifications. That is completely unrealistic in the world as described.
And your 6 in Magic and 2 Skills of 5 do not bother me, that is your focus. It is the other 6 skills you said you would take at 6 (because to do otherwise is stupid according to you) that I have issues with.

And NO.... a SKILL OF 6 IS NOT AVERAGE...
THAT IS A PROFESSIONAL LEVEL OF SKILL FAR ABOVE THE "AVERAGE" LEVEL OF SKILL 3/4 PROFESSIONALISM.
READ THE BOOK.

[yesferatu]

Actually, I think it was Sengir who said that.
I'm just trying to figure which of the top three priorities I should choose if I want to get the most out of the priority system.
Personally, I think maxing a skill at 12 is idiotic. The fact that they even exist at 12 is idiotic. I would much rather have a balanced character with a few advanced core skills and a bunch of secondary skills. If you have 46 points to spend, and no penalty for taking a 6 in something (unlike other editions), I don't see why you wouldn't take advantage of it. If you know you're going to want to be over 6 in something eventually, why wouldn't you take it at character creation?

5th ed. watered down skills. "Professional" had been been 3, 6 was considered "Elite".
I guess there's a subtle difference between "Apex" and "Elite". To me, it reads like you're half as good as you used to be.

[toturi]

I call BS on that line of reasoning. Characters become so ludicrously stupid when you take that route that it breaks the verisimilitude of the game. *shrug*

And I call BS on your calling BS. Characters within the versimilitude of the game should be taking that route.

[tjn]

"A simply wins, for any concept. "
See, I thought that too, but Attributes set the limits.

Well you did ask for what strictly gets the most karma, but once you start throwing in caveats, the whole thing becomes a balancing act. Take melee specialists: with Str now equal to DV, Trolls become rather desirable as they can do more damage with their fists than a gun. Yes, it's possible to get both Skills A and Troll, but then Attributes and Nuyen or Magic to mod said attributes, suffer. Karma efficiency should just be one element to be taken into consideration, along with limits and the capabilities that cyber or magic can offer, but I still think everything should be focused through what is the character's role in the team and how you are going to best accomplish that role.

But a small addendum, I forgot specializations; it's more karma efficient to use any points unable to max a skill to 6 as specializations than to get a lower ranked skill. You squeeze out 8 more karma that way if there are 4 left over skill points, like in skills A.

I call BS on that line of reasoning. Characters become so ludicrously stupid when you take that route that it breaks the verisimilitude of the game. *shrug*

It breaks your verisimilitude, not the game's verisimilitude. Don't presume your preferences are fact for the entire playerbase. There's multiple different ways of playing Shadowrun, and there's no single "right" way for every table, there's only the right way to play at that specific table, which requires talking and compromises on all sides in order to form an agreement as to what works at that particular table.

[Tymeaus Jalynsfe...]

It breaks your verisimilitude, not the game's verisimilitude. Don't presume your preferences are fact for the entire playerbase. There's multiple different ways of playing Shadowrun, and there's no single "right" way for every table, there's only the right way to play at that specific table, which requires talking and compromises on all sides in order to form an agreement as to what works at that particular table.

So, How many Skill Sets do YOU have that would be classed at a Professional Level of 6, complete with the training, education and papers to back it up?
I would be willing to bet it is far less than the 7 that people say you should be taking as a starting PC.
Look at the rules. Skill 4 is your standard professional rating for most skills. So you are really going to have a difficult time convincing me that the average person in Shadowrun is running with 6+ when it says, in Black and White, that it is 4. THAT is the verisimilitude of the game. NOT Mine.

Rating 4: Proficient
You’re comfortable with what you do and perform well under normal pressures. Professional level for most jobs.

As you can see, I am not making that up... It is Canon... It is The Standard that the game sets.
The fact that you like to flaunt the standard does not invalidate that Standard.

[Sendaz]

While I can agree 4 is a good starting point for a key skill, (but to play devil's advocate and that's what you pay me for some days sir) I would also stress the other half of that description.

You’re comfortable with what you do and perform well under normal pressures.

I think we can agree shadowrunning is not most jobs and most of the time when we are using those infamous skills we not under normal pressures. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/nyahnyah.gif)

RATING 6: PROFESSIONAL You could easily sell your skills on the open market. This is the maximum skill level for starting player characters.

Emphasis again mine. This is probably why most players feel compelled to try and max certain skills right out of the gate, because they feel if they don't have that key skill at 6 they are not being competitive, even though in truth they are, because it also matters how you use it. ( Or so the ladies say. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/wink.gif) )
After all what is supposed to make them stand out from the other schmoes bucking for that mission from the Johnson?

But that comes more down to the style of play at the table and what the groups end up dealing with. A good Gm can fit situations around the players for an enjoyable and still challenging game without having to force them to hamstring their overall character development just to keep on the bleeding edge on a handful of skills.

[cndblank]

Personally, I think maxing a skill at 12 is idiotic. The fact that they even exist at 12 is idiotic. I would much rather have a balanced character with a few advanced core skills and a bunch of secondary skills.

Having a max skill rating of of 7 was very limiting.
Now a Fastjack is a FASTJACK!

No need for clunky special rules for legendary NPCs.
And now veteran PCs can really stand out and enjoy the extra dice their skill provides.

BTW, thanks for posting this question.
I was curious how the priority system balanced out.

[Samoth]

So, How many Skill Sets do YOU have that would be classed at a Professional Level of 6, complete with the training, education and papers to back it up?
I would be willing to bet it is far less than the 7 that people say you should be taking as a starting PC.
Look at the rules. Skill 4 is your standard professional rating for most skills. So you are really going to have a difficult time convincing me that the average person in Shadowrun is running with 6+ when it says, in Black and White, that it is 4. THAT is the verisimilitude of the game. NOT Mine.



As you can see, I am not making that up... It is Canon... It is The Standard that the game sets.
The fact that you like to flaunt the standard does not invalidate that Standard.

Some people like to get the most out of a restrictive system, just because you don't doesn't mean anyone else is wrong. Chill out, nobody cares about your super cool characters who are totally average at a ton of things.