Character Generation - Best Bang for the Buck, 5th ed. Options

[Irion]

@Sendaz
Well, one has to be fair. Streamlining the rules gets you also a lot of heat from everywhere.... So how well a shadowrun with better more consistant ruleset would be taken is hard to tell, but I think badly, simply because everybody thinks that his character loses.

A few examples:
First: I would use a Point system, Karma to be precise.
Second: The "cash" problem. Chars who do not need cash won't simple use it and for that matter have more Karma. It also leads to the kind of characer who starts off with the cloth on his back and maybe a focus. (Because why buy more?) So maybe let everybody start with 50k (street 10k prime 75k) and you may buy additional cash with Karma up to five times your starting cash.
Third: Attributes. Like said in this thread they should be at least new value*10
Magic/essence and racial boni: These are applyed as modifiers to the attribute and they are not taken into account if raising the attribute but count as natural.
(One might argue, that essenceloss for a mage might be a bit to hard now, but I guess it won't be that bad unless you have about 8+ Magic. And at this point magic is kind of breaking the game anyway)
Augmentations: I do not see a real fix here but I think the +4 do not make it too bad anyway.
Introducing a limit for magic outside of force and the lower determins your max. hits.
Fixiing adepts: Do not know jet....

An other idea would be that magical and cybernetic/bioware augmentations do not stack with each other. Like bioware and cyberware sometimes do not stack...

[Falconer]

TJ:
Actually... the line dev is clueless then and now. The writer who wrote karmagen.. wrote it using the 5x attribute costs that were being actively playtested at the same time prior to SR4a's release.

Jason just wandered out and with his normal clueless dear in the headlights said... well it is 750 with 3x attributes... so make it 1000 with 5x without even bothering to ask or realize that it was already setup for for the 5x costs that were coming out in SR4a. (none of that... ever made it into errata IIRC though).

Then for a real laugh riot... look for some of All4Bigguns example characters of why he 'needs' 1000 karma to make a balanced character! 750 karma at 5x costs still produces slightly better and more powerful characters than 400BP does. There were some silly 'math' exerciess in which ways were found to 'maximize' BP to karma value... but none of them reflected real playable characters... technos generally have the worst of it because complex forms are really cheap under BP but get very expensive with karma.

Yes, I will shed no tears when Mr. Hardy steps down eventually. He's like a magic 8 ball when hit with Q&A.


Mikado:
Here's the problem with the karmagen system as published in SR4(A).

Initially it was published in Runner's Companion just ahead of the publication of SR4a's release. So there was an attribute cost change in the works... SR4a increased karma awards by 50% with more generous guidelines... then increased attribute costs by roughly the same amount. The lowest 'cost' in karma is set by knowledge skills and languages at 1x rating in karma. Active skills at 2x new rating... so all costs above that need to be relative to those minimums which can't go any lower. (short of resorting to fractions... and wierd 2 karma for 3... or 1 karma for 2 ranks in a knowledge/language).

Here's the rub though... karmagen eliminates the single biggest problem with BP & priority... linear vs scaling cost discrepancy. The single biggest problem... BP & priority are great for making specialists because they reward you for dumping all your points into your specialty and ignoring everything else... maxing out as muchas possible to avoid 'getting taxed' later for poor chargen min/maxing.

Is it right that a character is docked 10karma for putting 1 rank in 'pilot ground' for his motorcycle... instead of the 6th rank in his specialty? I say no. That's why I laugh at any assertion that karmagen in theory is a poor system for keeping 'balance'.

The problem with it as published though... is they took all the most objectionable fluffy things... and implemented them.


First: Karma costs are out of line... and not balanced properly. As prima facie evidence of this I submit that karmagen specifically limits you to spending half your karma on attributes. Why? Because if you could you'd spend almost all of it on attributes and avoid the bum deal that are skills!

Second: Penalized attributes aren't really penalized... only capped! Who cares... I got a troll tank with 3 logic for only 25karma... he's same as average human... and under karmagen it cost me exactly as much as a normal basic human to buy logic 3! The argument presented that humans 'saved' karma... was a joke... because everyone else did as well... just humans started with lower stats in everything except edge.

Third: Metatype for free... there should be no cost to play anything special... even if it's quite objectively better than a baseline human. (which they all are).

Fourth: on top of meta for free.... metas get free attribute points... AND they're given a higher cap to spend on attributes to boot! The reason is because... attributes are bought on top of the racial bonuses... so a troll ends up breaking the system yet again because a troll must be able to buy strength 10 without just like he could in BP.... This is why so many of us put forth that base attributes should all be 1-6... with a racial modifier slapped on top as a bonus or penalty to the stat.

Fifth: it's not explicitly spelled out, but you're not supposed to be able to initiate/submerge in chargen even with karma.

How does 4 play out... how do you 'abuse' the system as published... Lets make an intuition mage... what's the single best racial pick... hint it's not human or even elf... dwarf possibly... but orc! Why... you get 4 bod for free.. and 3 strength... and you don't care about the minor 1 point cap reduction in cha & log. 4bod is almost perfect it's better than 90% of the other characters except your orc and troll tank types... 3 strength same deal... unless you're utterly focused on melee it's ideal. That's two attributes down. Now we have 375 karma to spend on attributes... but wait... I'm an orc I get 40 bonus karma to spend on attributes ... so 415 karma! (which is easily an extra 2-3 points in attributes).

So you save tons of karma by simply 'playing against type'... instead of using the massive karma allowance to buy expensive junk they raised the cap to allow you to do. You simply become 'more human than human'. and go hog wild on all the cheap/bargain stuff which you need anyhow (really... as that orc... buy the 'human looking' quality... now you have slightly better than human avg stats... and most people won't know the difference... and you end up with tons of 'free karma' from your race). (for an intuition mage... intution, willpower... the other mental stats for astral attributes... and then the other physical stats are just gravy... high reaction... now I can default on drive tests... high agility boosts a huge number of skills).


Hope that helps Midori...

[Mikado]

Mikado:
Here's the problem with the karmagen system as published in SR4(A).

Initially it was published in Runner's Companion just ahead of the publication of SR4a's release. So there was an attribute cost change in the works... SR4a increased karma awards by 50% with more generous guidelines... then increased attribute costs by roughly the same amount. The lowest 'cost' in karma is set by knowledge skills and languages at 1x rating in karma. Active skills at 2x new rating... so all costs above that need to be relative to those minimums which can't go any lower. (short of resorting to fractions... and wierd 2 karma for 3... or 1 karma for 2 ranks in a knowledge/language).

Look... Everyone's main problem with karmagen is it being overpowered in SR4A. I never said otherwise. I said to ignore the book and come up with a number that was balanced. Would that number be a house rule, yes. However, if you do lower the karma for karmagen down 100 or so karma (and pay for race) you should wind up with characters at around the same level as the BP system.

I agree that the book does not make sense and that the dev's do not know how to balance a checkbook let alone a character creation system.

First: Karma costs are out of line... and not balanced properly. As prima facie evidence of this I submit that karmagen specifically limits you to spending half your karma on attributes. Why? Because if you could you'd spend almost all of it on attributes and avoid the bum deal that are skills!

Yes... I agree. But much the same way that you can only use a percentage of points per troop choice in Warhammer Fantasy and 40k I do not see why limiting spending on attributes is an issue. You where given a similar limit in the BP system and by its very nature you have the same limit in the priority system as well.

Second: Penalized attributes aren't really penalized... only capped! Who cares... I got a troll tank with 3 logic for only 25karma... he's same as average human... and under karmagen it cost me exactly as much as a normal basic human to buy logic 3! The argument presented that humans 'saved' karma... was a joke... because everyone else did as well... just humans started with lower stats in everything except edge.

The group I played in for years then left because the GM decided to jump to 5th without talking it out with the group have been playing with the house rule that racial bonus attributes "modify" the base bought attribute since 2nd edition. We modified the costs of the races to compensate for having to buy low attributes up to one (for a troll that would be an attribute of 3 in logic) which made trolls the cheapest metatype and elves the most expensive.

Third: Metatype for free... there should be no cost to play anything special... even if it's quite objectively better than a baseline human. (which they all are).

Where did I say that you should not pay for race? Stop going on 4th edition rules! Everyone knows they are shit! I am talking about character creation systems... independent of editions... 1st through 5th... Karmagen is the only one that is balanced within creation and advancement for all characters. It is the only one that does not punish players for subpar choices. Getting a skill to 8 instead of getting a secondary skill up to 3 because it is the better metagame choice is exactly the same as using metagame knowledge ("Don't worry guys, I read the book and as written these Tir Ghosts are pushovers.") and that is reduced in a karmagen system.

Fourth: on top of meta for free.... metas get free attribute points... AND they're given a higher cap to spend on attributes to boot! The reason is because... attributes are bought on top of the racial bonuses... so a troll ends up breaking the system yet again because a troll must be able to buy strength 10 without just like he could in BP.... This is why so many of us put forth that base attributes should all be 1-6... with a racial modifier slapped on top as a bonus or penalty to the stat.

I am not sure if you are talking to me with this one or just pointing out a flaw that needs to be addressed.

Fifth: it's not explicitly spelled out, but you're not supposed to be able to initiate/submerge in chargen even with karma.

I am an advocate of not allowing initiation at character creation without direct GM permission and a good reason why your character should have it. By the book the GM has to approve of all characters so broken characters should be stopped before they ever see a run... Unless the entire group wants to play that way and the GM gives his ok for a high powered game. The only time it is allowed in the group I was in was when you had "roll over karma" when you retired a character and made a new one so the new one was not completely green in the team and only the roll over karma had no restrictions on it's use.

How does 4 play out... how do you 'abuse' the system as published... Lets make an intuition mage... what's the single best racial pick... hint it's not human or even elf... dwarf possibly... but orc! Why... you get 4 bod for free.. and 3 strength... and you don't care about the minor 1 point cap reduction in cha & log. 4bod is almost perfect it's better than 90% of the other characters except your orc and troll tank types... 3 strength same deal... unless you're utterly focused on melee it's ideal. That's two attributes down. Now we have 375 karma to spend on attributes... but wait... I'm an orc I get 40 bonus karma to spend on attributes ... so 415 karma! (which is easily an extra 2-3 points in attributes).

So you save tons of karma by simply 'playing against type'... instead of using the massive karma allowance to buy expensive junk they raised the cap to allow you to do. You simply become 'more human than human'. and go hog wild on all the cheap/bargain stuff which you need anyhow (really... as that orc... buy the 'human looking' quality... now you have slightly better than human avg stats... and most people won't know the difference... and you end up with tons of 'free karma' from your race). (for an intuition mage... intution, willpower... the other mental stats for astral attributes... and then the other physical stats are just gravy... high reaction... now I can default on drive tests... high agility boosts a huge number of skills).


Hope that helps Midori...

You will never eliminate power gaming, min/maxing or anything else when designing a system. Someone will always find a way. That is why the GM overlooks all characters. As long as the base system is balanced so a player is not punished for making a subpar choice by accident or by character background I accept the min/maxing, power gaming "problem" in karmagen since the GM has final say in character creation. Also, that min/maxing, powergaming problem is not actually a problem since all character creation methods have that same flaw, karmagen is the only one that does not punish players with it.

[Irion]

@Mikado

The group I played in for years then left because the GM decided to jump to 5th without talking it out with the group have been playing with the house rule that racial bonus attributes "modify" the base bought attribute since 2nd edition. We modified the costs of the races to compensate for having to buy low attributes up to one (for a troll that would be an attribute of 3 in logic) which made trolls the cheapest metatype and elves the most expensive.

You were aware of the fact, that you would have made metatyps more expensive in general, espacially trolls, because of your ruling (raising strength and body became dirt cheap for them!).

[Cain]

Look... Everyone's main problem with karmagen is it being overpowered in SR4A. I never said otherwise. I said to ignore the book and come up with a number that was balanced. Would that number be a house rule, yes. However, if you do lower the karma for karmagen down 100 or so karma (and pay for race) you should wind up with characters at around the same level as the BP system.

Two problems here. First is, what number would that be? Short of building characters under every possible total and destruction-testing them, you're never going to know what the optimal amount really is.

Second, the optimal number is going to very from table to table. You're never going to find agreement as to exactly how much karma to give; and given the work required to find the right one for your table, it simple isn't worth it.

Where did I say that you should not pay for race? Stop going on 4th edition rules! Everyone knows they are shit! I am talking about character creation systems... independent of editions... 1st through 5th... Karmagen is the only one that is balanced within creation and advancement for all characters. It is the only one that does not punish players for subpar choices. Getting a skill to 8 instead of getting a secondary skill up to 3 because it is the better metagame choice is exactly the same as using metagame knowledge ("Don't worry guys, I read the book and as written these Tir Ghosts are pushovers.") and that is reduced in a karmagen system.

Don't take this the wrong way, but I honestly have no idea what you're referring to. We're talking about 4.5, because it's published and written, so we can critique it. You're discussing a theoretical variant that only exists in your head, so we can't examine it for flaws and exploits. If you want to write up a full karmagen system for SR5. and submit it for critique, then we'll have something solid to discuss. Until then, we're shooting in the dark.

Furthermore, karmagen does punish players for making subpar choices. It does it differently than BP does, but if you don't optimize, you're still screwing yourself over. Buying a bunch of skills at rating 3 isn't effective, no matter how much karma you spent getting them.

You will never eliminate power gaming, min/maxing or anything else when designing a system. Someone will always find a way. That is why the GM overlooks all characters. As long as the base system is balanced so a player is not punished for making a subpar choice by accident or by character background I accept the min/maxing, power gaming "problem" in karmagen since the GM has final say in character creation. Also, that min/maxing, powergaming problem is not actually a problem since all character creation methods have that same flaw, karmagen is the only one that does not punish players with it.

First of all, if you're relying solely on the GM to balance characters, karmagen is actually worse at preventing cheating than BP. BP is easier to audit, so you can easily see if someone overspent or used creative mathematics. Karmagen, not so much. Second, karmagen most definitely does punish bad choices, and still leaves open the issue of gimping your character by accident. Finally, even if you catch an accident in karmagen, it's harder to fix than BP, because it's not just as simple as shoving a point from one skill to another. You have to figure the differences, and add and subtract that.

[Irion]

Furthermore, karmagen does punish players for making subpar choices. It does it differently than BP does, but if you don't optimize, you're still screwing yourself over. Buying a bunch of skills at rating 3 isn't effective, no matter how much karma you spent getting them.

Depends on the skills and depends very much on the game.

If you let people use skills in your game, they become important. For example, if you can rescue a guy, because you got medicine and that grants you additional Karma and additonal Money, yeah thats important.

Sure, if you just play: Shoot some guys in the face, than most skills won't be important. But this depends on the group.

The other extreme is GMs who have no problem to let your character die, because you do miss a skill you would have needed (and you can't roll attribute for it).

You might want to argue that this is not happening very often. And Again I tell you, think again, it only depends on the GM.

[Sengir]

If the only argument why karmagen is overpowered is because the designers gave it to many points then I do not know what to tell you except that the designers should accept that the player base may know what they are talking about and should reduce it. So far, from what I have seen, that is the main (only?) complaint of karmagen.

The designers gave it an appropriate amount. Enter the guy who passes for line dev and is keen to reintroduce the effects of the faulty "Attributex3" printing. Being well-versed in the art of de-errataing, he does not simply restore the faulty original wording, but instead tackles the opposite end and increases the available karma.

[Cain]

Depends on the skills and depends very much on the game.

If you let people use skills in your game, they become important. For example, if you can rescue a guy, because you got medicine and that grants you additional Karma and additonal Money, yeah thats important.

Sure, if you just play: Shoot some guys in the face, than most skills won't be important. But this depends on the group.

The other extreme is GMs who have no problem to let your character die, because you do miss a skill you would have needed (and you can't roll attribute for it).

You might want to argue that this is not happening very often. And Again I tell you, think again, it only depends on the GM.

Actually, I mean that trying to be a generalist only leads to being mediocre in more areas.

First of all, modern Shadowrun is a heist game. It's about teams of specialists, working together. If you're not good enough to bring something to the table, you don't deserve to be on a shadowrunning team.

Second, SR4.5 and Sr5 are about big dice pools. If you don't have a lot of dice to roll for a task, you're not going to be good at it. Even if you have a few dice in lots and lots of skills, you're still not much better than someone without any skill at all.

I don't have the time to calculate this, but let's say someone using karmagen gets 4 in all the attributes, and 3 in every skill. The rest of the karma goes into whatever: knowledge skills (none above 3) random gear, and so on. Despite the fact that he's skilled in everything, he's still useless to a shadowrunning team. None of his skills are good enough to overcome serious opposition, which means he might even be a liability in the right circumstances. Karmagen won't save you from this-- in fact, it encourages it, because of the scaling costs involved.

Basically, even though he knows lots and lots of skills, that doesn't mean he's good at them. So, no matter how often a random skill from the list gets used, that character will still be useless.

[Tymeaus Jalynsfe...]

Actually, I mean that trying to be a generalist only leads to being mediocre in more areas.

First of all, modern Shadowrun is a heist game. It's about teams of specialists, working together. If you're not good enough to bring something to the table, you don't deserve to be on a shadowrunning team.

Second, SR4.5 and Sr5 are about big dice pools. If you don't have a lot of dice to roll for a task, you're not going to be good at it. Even if you have a few dice in lots and lots of skills, you're still not much better than someone without any skill at all.

I don't have the time to calculate this, but let's say someone using karmagen gets 4 in all the attributes, and 3 in every skill. The rest of the karma goes into whatever: knowledge skills (none above 3) random gear, and so on. Despite the fact that he's skilled in everything, he's still useless to a shadowrunning team. None of his skills are good enough to overcome serious opposition, which means he might even be a liability in the right circumstances. Karmagen won't save you from this-- in fact, it encourages it, because of the scaling costs involved.

Basically, even though he knows lots and lots of skills, that doesn't mean he's good at them. So, no matter how often a random skill from the list gets used, that character will still be useless.

I disagree with this. FOR YOU Shadowrun is modern Heist Game with Highly Trained Specialists. That does not apply for everyone.

Many, Many skills are viable with 9-12 dice. Especially since most published antagonists (SR4A, anyways - the scale slides up in SR5) have DP's in that range. Only when you start seeing opposition in the 15+ DP range will that start to change, and then, there are only a FEW antagonists that have DP's in THAT range. Creating a character with 18+ DPs in skills only forces your GM to compensate to provide a sense of challenge, which then leads to the players building even more optimized characters. You get the picture. If you LIEK that race... then you are free ti run it, but not everyone LIKES that particular style of play.

Your Experiences DO NOT line up with Mine, at least. Your Opinions are merely a snapshot of your own experiences. Not everyone has the same experiences.

MOST of the characters I play are in the 10-14 for Primary DP's, with Secondary DPS in the 9-11 range. And they work just fine. Even in Campaigns that are considered to be High End (Artifact series for example). So, I think that your reasoning is a bit off on that. Not once have I seen a character with a Primary DP of 12 as a Liability. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)

[Irion]

@Cain

First of all, modern Shadowrun is a heist game. It's about teams of specialists, working together. If you're not good enough to bring something to the table, you don't deserve to be on a shadowrunning team.

Again, it depends on the GM. Surely having every skill at low levels is most of the time not really usefull. But it is the same with having only one skill at a very high level.
(What is exactly the best, well it depends. If the difficulty is low but there are a lot of side objectives for which you need certain skills and you can't leave it to a team mate... And all of a sudden this influence group 1 is not a waste of points, but gets you 60.000 additional cash reward and additional Karma.

But all your claims are more or less pro KarmaGen if you think about it. Thats the part about your argument I totally do not get.
Every single thing is a reason for deminishing returns while generation and in game.

[Chimera]

I disagree with this. FOR YOU Shadowrun is modern Heist Game with Highly Trained Specialists. That does not apply for everyone.

This. I think that applies for GM's and players. Whenever I GM I tell the players to make whatever kind of character that they want and I'll build the game around them; designed to challenge and complement their skill set. Not everyone wants to be a Face; so sometimes there is less social interaction. Sometimes there's no desire to play a Hacker-type; so the matrix gets downplayed a bit. A character's "usefulness' is playing the game period. Showing up and rolling some dice. Maybe some people can find players easier than I can but its hard for me to keep a game going if I'm alienating players. I can't tell people not to power game and I can't tell people that you need to stop maxing out Archery and Unarmed combat if your troll doesn't have any arms. I CAN give advice, but ultimately, I believe choice rests with the player and that the GM will just have to accept that (unless the group has agreed to run a specific type of game).

Usually how it ends up is there are a one or two power gamers; one out to exploit any advantage and the other who wants to destroy everything she sees. We have a player that knows the rules well but gets absent-minded and role plays his character a little too well, followed by a wild card player who will alternate between all three playing styles. Mostly; the conflict comes from the characters clashing on how to proceed.

Just my experiences (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)

[Cain]

@Cain

Again, it depends on the GM. Surely having every skill at low levels is most of the time not really usefull. But it is the same with having only one skill at a very high level.
(What is exactly the best, well it depends. If the difficulty is low but there are a lot of side objectives for which you need certain skills and you can't leave it to a team mate... And all of a sudden this influence group 1 is not a waste of points, but gets you 60.000 additional cash reward and additional Karma.

But all your claims are more or less pro KarmaGen if you think about it. Thats the part about your argument I totally do not get.
Every single thing is a reason for deminishing returns while generation and in game.

Karmagen supposedly encourages a balanced spread of stats. So, it'd favor a character with 4's in all the attributes and 3 in all the skills; your points would go further. Of course, since said character would have a DP of 7 in most areas, he'd be pretty useless against any trained opposition. So, despite Mikado's claim, there are trap options in karmagen.

I disagree with this. FOR YOU Shadowrun is modern Heist Game with Highly Trained Specialists. That does not apply for everyone.

Many, Many skills are viable with 9-12 dice. Especially since most published antagonists (SR4A, anyways - the scale slides up in SR5) have DP's in that range. Only when you start seeing opposition in the 15+ DP range will that start to change, and then, there are only a FEW antagonists that have DP's in THAT range. Creating a character with 18+ DPs in skills only forces your GM to compensate to provide a sense of challenge, which then leads to the players building even more optimized characters. You get the picture. If you LIEK that race... then you are free ti run it, but not everyone LIKES that particular style of play.

Your Experiences DO NOT line up with Mine, at least. Your Opinions are merely a snapshot of your own experiences. Not everyone has the same experiences.

Games always rely on the GM. The setting fluff, from the very beginning of the game, has always been about specialists working together.

Who was the first shadowrunning team we ever encountered? Dodger, a decker; Sally Tsung, a mage; and Ghost, a street sam. No single one of them could have completed the run, they needed each other. They were professional (street punk look, maybe, but a professional attitude), they each knew their job and how to do it. So, from the start. shadowrunning has been about people covering for each other, not one-man-shadowrunning teams.

It doesn't matter that the size of my dice pool is bigger than yours, or that I know how to use it. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/nyahnyah.gif) The point is, Shadowrun has always been about teams of specialists. What that means might vary a bit from game to game, but if you don't bring something special, you don't belong on a shadowrunning team. This has been my experience ever since the game first came out, and has held true for about twenty-five years with the game. You specialize, or your're dead weight.

[Tymeaus Jalynsfe...]

It doesn't matter that the size of my dice pool is bigger than yours, or that I know how to use it. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/nyahnyah.gif) The point is, Shadowrun has always been about teams of specialists. What that means might vary a bit from game to game, but if you don't bring something special, you don't belong on a shadowrunning team. This has been my experience ever since the game first came out, and has held true for about twenty-five years with the game. You specialize, or your're dead weight.

I think the disconnect is where you draw the line at Specialty. I consider 12-14 Dice to be perfectly fine for a Specialist Function (and that will rise as the character obtains greater competence in his areas of expertise, of course - but for start that is MORE than adequate in my experience). I have never had any issues with that standard (SR4A Obviously, as previous editions had different targets). And I think that is where we disagree. To each his own, I guess. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/nyahnyah.gif)

[FuelDrop]

I think the disconnect is where you draw the line at Specialty. I consider 12-14 Dice to be perfectly fine for a Specialist Function (and that will rise as the character obtains greater competence in his areas of expertise, of course - but for start that is MORE than adequate in my experience). I have never had any issues with that standard (SR4A Obviously, as previous editions had different targets). And I think that is where we disagree. To each his own, I guess. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/nyahnyah.gif)

In adverse conditions the extra dice are really nice as those penalties can stack up fast, and I personally would hesitate to call a Professional Shadowrunner a specialist without 15 dice in their specialty after gear and specialization (at least with physical skills. Mental stuff is harder to get high and has more tolerance) with some secondary skills related skills in the 12-14 range.
That said, on street level games 12 dice is badass, while in an ultra-high-end game 18 dice might be considered amateurish.
It all depends on context.

[Cain]

I think the disconnect is where you draw the line at Specialty. I consider 12-14 Dice to be perfectly fine for a Specialist Function (and that will rise as the character obtains greater competence in his areas of expertise, of course - but for start that is MORE than adequate in my experience). I have never had any issues with that standard (SR4A Obviously, as previous editions had different targets). And I think that is where we disagree. To each his own, I guess. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/nyahnyah.gif)

While I agree that the definition of a specialist will vary, the sample character I provided (7's in every skill) isn't a specialist by any stretch of the word. Generalists (characters with a lot of range but no specialty) are a trap option in Shadowrun, and karmagen encourages them.

[Moirdryd]

While I agree with the concept, it's a game of specialists, Cain's angle has a big issue for me, it's all but saying "divide your points by X to gain the most amount of skills/atts for your class at max with specialities".

I've seen plenty of chars with middling dice pools in a variety of skills that have helped them do things they need to do. Defaulting often hurts, especially for the uber specialist because they're typically running stats of 2 or 3 outside their favoured spheres. Granted play styles differ greatly and sometimes defaulting is the only option or hoping you've got someone on hand who can handle a situation better than you. I try to encourage my players to create charaters to be good at the thing their character does, but also be able to buy a hit from DPs for skills they probably will use in their day to day shadow existences. If I look at a character and I cannot work out how they survive in the shadows of the sixth world then there is definitely a problem with that character and they certainly will struggle in my games because they will have to interact with the shadows and the world.

[Glyph]

I think the problem is that the system is so wide open that people lose their focus. They build an interesting character, but forget to make it an interesting character for a game. I kind of like the balance of karmagen. On the one hand, it encourages generalization a bit because with exponential costs, higher skills and Attributes have more of an opportunity cost when measured against how many average skills and Attributes you could get for the same cost. But on the other hand, you have enough points to get those higher skills and Attributes anyways, and high dice pools are one of the main measures of character effectiveness in the game.

Someone with 7's in every dice pool may not be a great shadowrunner at first glance, but it is only a trap option if you don't get any 'ware, adept powers, spells or gear for him. Give him muscle toner: 4, a specialization in pistols, and a smartlink, and suddenly this character is rolling 15 dice for shooting and 11 dice for infiltration. And a dice pool of 7 is not bad at all for social skills or most technical skills, or vehicle skills. In most cases it is a significant advantage over a character missing any of those skills. I think generalists get a bum rap because in a lot of cases, they are built by people making Joe Average (security guard who got fired, etc.), so they are mundane and minimally augmented - of course they will be low-powered.

[Cain]

Someone with 7's in every dice pool may not be a great shadowrunner at first glance, but it is only a trap option if you don't get any 'ware, adept powers, spells or gear for him. Give him muscle toner: 4, a specialization in pistols, and a smartlink, and suddenly this character is rolling 15 dice for shooting and 11 dice for infiltration. And a dice pool of 7 is not bad at all for social skills or most technical skills, or vehicle skills. In most cases it is a significant advantage over a character missing any of those skills. I think generalists get a bum rap because in a lot of cases, they are built by people making Joe Average (security guard who got fired, etc.), so they are mundane and minimally augmented - of course they will be low-powered.

The problem is, whatever Mr. Generalist can do, Mr. Specialist can do as well. Even under karmagen, the opportunity cost to get attribute at 6 and one skill at 6 isn't that steep. So, he goes from 15 dice for shooting to 20, which is a huge benefit; and all he loses is some skills he's not very good at anyway. And while 7 dice isn't too terrible when you're unopposed, in any opposed test (like most social tests, and many vehicle tests) it's just not enough to reliably succeed against semi-trained opposition.

My issue with generalists is that they really don't have anything special to offer. A well-rounded specialist is one thing, but a true generalist-- average dice pools in many areas-- is simply not very effective and has nothing to offer the team. Yes, a good shadowrunner should have all their bases covered; but unless they have something special on top of that, they don't belong on a shadowrunning team. My experience is that a well-built, well, rounded specialist has dice pools that are only a little behind a pure generalist in key areas, so there's really no disadvantage to specializing.

[toturi]

Creating a character with 18+ DPs in skills only forces your GM to compensate to provide a sense of challenge, which then leads to the players building even more optimized characters.

MOST of the characters I play are in the 10-14 for Primary DP's, with Secondary DPS in the 9-11 range. And they work just fine. Even in Campaigns that are considered to be High End (Artifact series for example). So, I think that your reasoning is a bit off on that. Not once have I seen a character with a Primary DP of 12 as a Liability. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)

I find that your experiences very much differs from mine. Granted, I have had good GMs. It is difficult to build a character with 18+ DP in many skills, 18+ DP in closely related skills that have much overlap in usage, sure.

Most of the characters I play are in the 18+ DP for primary with secondaries in the 8-9 range. There is a guy in my group with characters in dice range, and every time we play, we are worried about the hacker. Not the scout (mine, 18+), not the mage (14+), not the face (18+), not the sniper (18+). We try to minimise the areas that we need the hacker, we have certainty with most of the characters in their primary functions, but not as much with the hacker. The hacker isn't a liability, he is an asset, but he could have been a much better asset.

[toturi]

The problem is, whatever Mr. Generalist can do, Mr. Specialist can do as well. Even under karmagen, the opportunity cost to get attribute at 6 and one skill at 6 isn't that steep. So, he goes from 15 dice for shooting to 20, which is a huge benefit; and all he loses is some skills he's not very good at anyway. And while 7 dice isn't too terrible when you're unopposed, in any opposed test (like most social tests, and many vehicle tests) it's just not enough to reliably succeed against semi-trained opposition.

My issue with generalists is that they really don't have anything special to offer. A well-rounded specialist is one thing, but a true generalist-- average dice pools in many areas-- is simply not very effective and has nothing to offer the team. Yes, a good shadowrunner should have all their bases covered; but unless they have something special on top of that, they don't belong on a shadowrunning team. My experience is that a well-built, well, rounded specialist has dice pools that are only a little behind a pure generalist in key areas, so there's really no disadvantage to specializing.

Mr Well-rounded Specialist can do almost as well as the Generalist. That said, a really good Generalist (8-9 DP) covers not only the usual bases, but the more obscure ones as well. Fly a plane? He can do it. Navigate a submarine? He can do it too. Fix a bus? Sure. Shoot someone? OK. Climb a wall? But of course. Need to know who is the VP of the EVO Russian business unit when it was Yamatetsu? He does.

[Cain]

Mr Well-rounded Specialist can do almost as well as the Generalist. That said, a really good Generalist (8-9 DP) covers not only the usual bases, but the more obscure ones as well. Fly a plane? He can do it. Navigate a submarine? He can do it too. Fix a bus? Sure. Shoot someone? OK. Climb a wall? But of course. Need to know who is the VP of the EVO Russian business unit when it was Yamatetsu? He does.

Generally, for that sort of thing, defaulting works as well. There might be a more significant difference, but since the obscure skills come up so much less often, it's less of a big deal. In fact, depending on the attribute, sometimes the defaulter might have more dice. For example, if the generalist has a pool of 6, and the defaulter has an attribute of 9, the defaulter will actually be better off.

[FuelDrop]

Our gm doesn't let us default for all skills. For example: flying a helicopter needs training.

[Cain]

Our gm doesn't let us default for all skills. For example: flying a helicopter needs training.

Technically, you can't default to all skills. Many are trained only. That said, if you take one level in a couple of the more common ones, you can be functional in a lot of areas without needing to go generalist.

[Glyph]

The problem is, whatever Mr. Generalist can do, Mr. Specialist can do as well. Even under karmagen, the opportunity cost to get attribute at 6 and one skill at 6 isn't that steep. So, he goes from 15 dice for shooting to 20, which is a huge benefit; and all he loses is some skills he's not very good at anyway. And while 7 dice isn't too terrible when you're unopposed, in any opposed test (like most social tests, and many vehicle tests) it's just not enough to reliably succeed against semi-trained opposition.

I'll admit, that's pretty much what I do in karmagen; soft max some key Attributes, and get that one skill at 6, even for otherwise skill-intensive builds such as covert ops specialists. I was just pointing out that a generalist isn't useless, merely suboptimal (in most cases).

[Irion]

Karmagen supposedly encourages a balanced spread of stats. So, it'd favor a character with 4's in all the attributes and 3 in all the skills; your points would go further. Of course, since said character would have a DP of 7 in most areas, he'd be pretty useless against any trained opposition. So, despite Mikado's claim, there are trap options in karmagen.

Again, it depends on the GM. Take the computergame Demonicon for example. I play on hard(highest difficulty I could choose) and I have spend nearly nothing in combat to now but I have pushed every other skill to medicore level, because the game allows you to farm AP and rewards this way!

Again: If both survive the run, but the guy having more "skills" gets three times the karma and twice the money, well things look differently.

But still, this would make BP worse than karma. At any rate (even with your perception) karma would be the more balanced system by far.