Character Generation - Best Bang for the Buck, 5th ed. Options

[Cain]

Again, it depends on the GM. Take the computergame Demonicon for example. I play on hard(highest difficulty I could choose) and I have spend nearly nothing in combat to now but I have pushed every other skill to medicore level, because the game allows you to farm AP and rewards this way!

Again: If both survive the run, but the guy having more "skills" gets three times the karma and twice the money, well things look differently.

But still, this would make BP worse than karma. At any rate (even with your perception) karma would be the more balanced system by far.

I'm not familiar with that game, but karma in Shadowrun doesn't work that way. Characters tend to earn the same amount of karma across the board, so there's no advantage to having a lot of small skills.

Still, I have to disagree with your supposition. BP does encourage more specialization, probably too much in fact. That's not an inherently bad thing, as specialists are required for Shadowrun. Karmagen encourages generalists, which is a bad thing in Shadowrun-- the game is about specialists working together.

But really, neither is balanced. Balanced is a relative term, but for this discussion, I use it to mean consistent: characters created should come out at about the same power level. There's always a little variation, but under a balanced system, it's not problematical. Neither BP nor karmagen guarantee balanced characters: it's still way too easy to get a hyperspecialist right alongside a gimped concept.

[Moirdryd]

Just spotted something... The generalist is likely to be able to refresh his Edge more often with Right Skill, Right Time. This means the Generalist can often afford to add Edge and get Rule of Six on several rolls!

[Cain]

Just spotted something... The generalist is likely to be able to refresh his Edge more often with Right Skill, Right Time. This means the Generalist can often afford to add Edge and get Rule of Six on several rolls!

That's really a subjective one. Also, it could be abused: the sam might argue that it applies to all combat rolls, since he has the right skill at the right time, and refresh even more often than Mr. Generalist. Not that I think any GM will allow that; it's just that Right Skill, Right Time isn't supposed to be a consistent thing.

On the other hand, Mr. Generalist will be failing a lot with his low dice pools, so he might be able to refresh more often because he's more prone to Critical Fumbles. That would work.

[toturi]

Technically, you can't default to all skills. Many are trained only. That said, if you take one level in a couple of the more common ones, you can be functional in a lot of areas without needing to go generalist.

I would say that if you do that (take 1 level in the common ones), then in a way, you are going generalist already.

Typically as long as the skill isn't one where you are likely to be rolling an Opposed Test, then you don't really need specialist primary skill (18+) levels of dice pool. In SR4, in most published adventures, you are not expected to roll more than 6+ hits. You'd need around 18+ dice for that. At a generalist level, I can live with getting 3-4 hits and you already got most of the info/data/passable amount of success.

I agree that karmagen encourages people to diversify their skill (and attribute) sets, but I noticed at least in the game I have played in, that after a certain level, karma goes towards the primary function. Once I have built my character to what I think is a competent shadowrunner, I put karma into the primary function in the most karma efficient manner, be it buying Attributes, skill specialisation, or Positive Quality, gear, etc. So I buy all the Attributes to 3, then one skill to 6, a lot of necessary skills at 1 first, go back put some more karma into the key Attributes, raise some core skills to 4, and so on. First I make sure the foundation of the character is rock solid, then I start building the character up.

[Glyph]

But really, neither is balanced. Balanced is a relative term, but for this discussion, I use it to mean consistent: characters created should come out at about the same power level. There's always a little variation, but under a balanced system, it's not problematical. Neither BP nor karmagen guarantee balanced characters: it's still way too easy to get a hyperspecialist right alongside a gimped concept.

The biggest obstacle to a "balanced" system in Shadowrun is not only that it lets you create characters of widely different power, but also that people want characters of widely different power levels. That is why you don't usually run into balance problems in cohesive groups that have played together for awhile. Either they are on the same page, power-wise, or they have learned to let themselves go their own ways without messing up each other's fun.

The only way to really "balance" Shadowrun would be to give character creation a lot less variables and moving parts. Like making Attributes the same flat amount of points for everybody, more PACKs-like sets for skills and gear, and removing the problematic qualities and options (Uncouth, In Debt, SURGE, infected characters, etc). Personally, I prefer the more wide-open system they have now, where you can optimize in multiple ways or be a quirky, slightly less optimized character in even more ways. The glut of options is a big part of what I enjoy about Shadowrun.

[Cain]

The biggest obstacle to a "balanced" system in Shadowrun is not only that it lets you create characters of widely different power, but also that people want characters of widely different power levels. That is why you don't usually run into balance problems in cohesive groups that have played together for awhile. Either they are on the same page, power-wise, or they have learned to let themselves go their own ways without messing up each other's fun.

The only way to really "balance" Shadowrun would be to give character creation a lot less variables and moving parts. Like making Attributes the same flat amount of points for everybody, more PACKs-like sets for skills and gear, and removing the problematic qualities and options (Uncouth, In Debt, SURGE, infected characters, etc). Personally, I prefer the more wide-open system they have now, where you can optimize in multiple ways or be a quirky, slightly less optimized character in even more ways. The glut of options is a big part of what I enjoy about Shadowrun.

That's exactly why I prefer Priority, at least in theory. I'm still deciding on how well SR5's works in practice, so I'll use SR3 as an example.

Under SR3 Priority, you had a lot of options. I never saw two people come up with identical character: there were lots of ways to optimize, but fewer ways to powergame. Trap options were minimized, and more powerful options tended to be balanced out. Edges and Flaws existed if you wanted them, but they weren't a necessity, and you couldn't simply load up on them for bonus points. Best of all, characters tended to come out at consistent power levels: they might be powerful, but they tended to not be overpowered in relation to one another.

[Irion]

I'm not familiar with that game, but karma in Shadowrun doesn't work that way. Characters tend to earn the same amount of karma across the board, so there's no advantage to having a lot of small skills.

Depends on the GM. The karma table hints in the other direction! You get Karma for accomplished goals.

Still, I have to disagree with your supposition. BP does encourage more specialization, probably too much in fact. That's not an inherently bad thing, as specialists are required for Shadowrun. Karmagen encourages generalists, which is a bad thing in Shadowrun-- the game is about specialists working together.

And again: If a specialist is at the advantage anyhow, why encourage it further. Thats just plain stupid design!

It is like you are playing a game where attack boni are superior to defance boni. Now you make the attack boni also cheaper. Yeah, fail.

[Cain]

Depends on the GM. The karma table hints in the other direction! You get Karma for accomplished goals.

Not three times as much. Really good roleplay and being really useful might net you one additional karma. However, the high-powered characters might get a bonus for heroic action, so even then it might not work out.

And again: If a specialist is at the advantage anyhow, why encourage it further. Thats just plain stupid design!

It is like you are playing a game where attack boni are superior to defance boni. Now you make the attack boni also cheaper. Yeah, fail.

Well, the specialist is part of the genre conventions. You should be rewarding concepts that fit into the setting, and discouraging the ones that don't fit in.

Besides which, karmagen doesn't prevent specialization. It encourages generalists, which is a trap option; but really ridiculous hyperspecialists are still possible.

[Irion]

@Cain

Not three times as much. Really good roleplay and being really useful might net you one additional karma. However, the high-powered characters might get a bonus for heroic action, so even then it might not work out.

Again: It depends on the GM and how things are run. Sure, not for one skill test. But you can easy run a "free" game, where you are not railroaded through. And yeah, taking different roads will get you different rewards. And beeing unable to use some roads will prevent you from getting those rewards.

[Cain]

@Cain

Again: It depends on the GM and how things are run. Sure, not for one skill test. But you can easy run a "free" game, where you are not railroaded through. And yeah, taking different roads will get you different rewards. And beeing unable to use some roads will prevent you from getting those rewards.

Railroading has nothing to do with it. Shadowrun's advancement system is based on getting 4-6 Kama a run. While roleplay awards and cleverness might earn you a bit more, there's no way anyone can consistently earn 10-12 more karma than anyone else.

[Irion]

Character had the right skills at the right place and time 1
Per mission objective group fulfi lled 1

Well, I guess you are wrong in that. So if you run a free game, you normally have a lot of optional mission objectives and a lot of times where you may have the right skill at the right time. Using that, you can easy get several the "base" Karma for the run. (Well, on Top of that you get all your good roleplaying stuff for additional 1-2 Karma...)
Again, we are comparing different groups here. We are not talking about one player getting twice the karma of another one. Still, I am not saying, that this would be impossible to pull off, given the rules in 4th edition)


So please, do not assume your playstyle is everything, thank you.

(Yeah, I know the new table gets you around 4 Karma a run and works differently. Well, I say we wait untill that has been revisited. Or I try to play one round of chess with lowyfer in every game. Yeah, I lost but I went up against a dicepool about 60 giving me 10 Karma (which would be more than +7 to regular dicepools in the opposition you will probably face). Talking about using non essential skills to grind karma...)

[toturi]

Well, I guess you are wrong in that. So if you run a free game, you normally have a lot of optional mission objectives and a lot of times where you may have the right skill at the right time. Using that, you can easy get several the "base" Karma for the run. (Well, on Top of that you get all your good roleplaying stuff for additional 1-2 Karma...)
Again, we are comparing different groups here. We are not talking about one player getting twice the karma of another one. Still, I am not saying, that this would be impossible to pull off, given the rules in 4th edition)

I am not sure about this.

The character having the right skills at the right place and time implies to me you only get this once per mission (otherwise it would "per time" like the mission objective one) and he has to have the right skills, plural and not singular. He cannot simply have 1 skill that saved the day, he has got to have to at least done so twice. Not easy, even for a skill monkey.

I am not so sure about the group having multiple optional mission objectives either. Sure, as a group you can have your own objectives in addition to the ones the J has, but the crux here is the group, it is not one guy's optional mission, it is the group's optional objective.

[Irion]

@toturi
And again: My point was, that it is up to the group or the GM. That the rules are at best ambiguous.
So to say, for example that Tymeaus Jalynsfein charachters are not viable is an simplification which can not be made for groups in general.
Sure, you can play like that, but you do not have to.

And additional rewards are only one option. Another option are shortcuts...

[Tymeaus Jalynsfe...]

@toturi
And again: My point was, that it is up to the group or the GM. That the rules are at best ambiguous.
So to say, for example that Tymeaus Jalynsfein charachters are not viable is an simplification which can not be made for groups in general.
Sure, you can play like that, but you do not have to.

And additional rewards are only one option. Another option are shortcuts...

Hey !!! (IMG:style_emoticons/default/eek.gif)

I think my characters are VERY Viable. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)
I have only lost one or two over the years (though some do tend to get really messed up from time to time). (IMG:style_emoticons/default/cool.gif)

[Irion]

Hey !!! (IMG:style_emoticons/default/eek.gif)

I think my characters are VERY Viable. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)
I have only lost one or two over the years (though some do tend to get really messed up from time to time). (IMG:style_emoticons/default/cool.gif)

Sorry, for the double negative. I am the guy agreeing with you. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)

[tjn]

@toturi
And again: My point was, that it is up to the group or the GM. That the rules are at best ambiguous.

And again: The table can do anything everyone agrees to, so the only valid discussion with a shared basis of understanding is what the game actually says. When I GM, I know I don't follow the book for run rewards, but I'm also not going to use my altered rewards as any sort of basis for discussion with people who will never sit at my table.

Look, you can bring up Demonicon, That Other Game, or even Hop Scotch, but it doesn't matter because we're talking about Shadowrun, and not those other games. And in Shadowrun, there is no farming or grinding of karma unless the table decides to institute a new houserule. Again, go wild with whatever houserules that will make you happy, but making an argument that the rules depend on the GM is just using a variation of the Rule Zero Fallacy.

But to actually use the rulebook, which establishes the shared basis for our understanding of SR:

In SR4, yes there were individual rewards, but the 'Right Skills, Right Time' award requires that the use of the skill to get the team out of a jam be unplanned. Which means, by it's very nature, you cannot count on this award every play session. Yes a generalist will usually have a good chance of having the required skill when a chance to earn this award would pop up, but going from that to an argument that a generalist will then use this award enough to provide three times as much karma as someone else, and to use that as a defense against the idea that the generalist in karmagen is a trap, is absurd.

Coincidentally, SR5 does not have individual awards, and for most standard runs, everyone will get 5-7 karma. So there isn't even an argument to be made. It just doesn't exist.

However, if as a generalist, the character grabs all the skills that don't have opposed tests, they will probably do fine in a support role to the group. Just the group can really only handle one of these characters as there isn't that many skills that aren't opposed, so I'm not entirely sold on the idea that a generalist is a complete trap, only that it violates one of my personal tenets of Shadowrun (a group of specialists coming together to accomplish something no single one of them could accomplish alone).

That said, you want to break the system with a generalist? Combine with Mr. Lucky, and walk over the toes of every other player. All those ideas from SR4's individual karma rewards got ported over to SR5's refreshing of Edge, and a literal interpretation would allow a generalist Mr. Lucky to get into a jam, use an Edge on the right skill, at the right time, and then get the point of Edge back in a feedback loop. Yeah, I'd houserule that no one can refresh Edge on a roll that they used Edge on... but there's nothing in the book that says otherwise.

[Irion]

@tjn
And again, I tell you that I quoted the table out of SR4 and this table is open to give additional points for secondary goals. If you go through it, there is a lot of things you can get additional points for and for a lot of those it can be assumed that it is easier to get if you have some low level skills, which fit the situation. Rollplaying is a big one at that.
If a player with no points in the influence group gives a speech I would not avard anything, because he left character. If he got one or two points in the appropriate skills, I would give rewards.

Coincidentally, SR5 does not have individual awards, and for most standard runs, everyone will get 5-7 karma. So there isn't even an argument to be made. It just doesn't exist.

Yeah, and the karma rewards were fucked up in the first printing of SR 4, too. Like I said, play chess with lowyfer for a big bonus to karma gain for the whole group.

That said, you want to break the system with a generalist? Combine with Mr. Lucky, and walk over the toes of every other player. All those ideas from SR4's individual karma rewards got ported over to SR5's refreshing of Edge, and a literal interpretation would allow a generalist Mr. Lucky to get into a jam, use an Edge on the right skill, at the right time, and then get the point of Edge back in a feedback loop. Yeah, I'd houserule that no one can refresh Edge on a roll that they used Edge on... but there's nothing in the book that says otherwise.

Edge is another can of worms at that, I agree.

My whole point is, the idea to have skills outside of your main field is neither good nor bad a priori. The question is how your group goes about it. What do you put focus on?
Generally, if you put a lot of focus on rollplaying and non-linear gameplay, than it is a very good idea to have the influence group at least at 1. If you play Shadowrun like you play the might and magic series, than it is pointless to even invest a single point in social skills, given you are not the face.

[Sengir]

The problem is that potential future karma earnings and other gameplay events are not exactly quantifiable. The karma equivalent of Resources A is a clear-cut affair, how much leeway the GM gives a magician with Resources A and a ton of reagents is a clear depends (IMG:style_emoticons/default/wink.gif)

[Glyph]

Overgeneralization is one of the biggest pitfalls in character creation, especially for mundanes with little or no augmentations. I like karmagen because it makes it a slightly less disastrous choice. Character imbalance is not as big of a problem when a player deliberately makes a weak character to chew the scenery and be good at a few niches. The problem is when people are trying to make an effective character and don't realize that their concept goes against the grain of the system.

The Shadowrun archetypes themselves have some trap options. The bounty hunter has the Uncouth quality and no social skills, a lot of points wasted on low-rated but redundant combat skills, and dice pools mostly in the single digits. The covert ops specialist is an archetype rolling 5-9 dice for athletic, stealth, social, and hardware related skills. Also armor that encumbers her, and an Ingram Smartgun X that she isn't even proficient in. The weapons specialist wastes even more points on redundant combat skills than the bounty hunter, has similar low dice pools, and has low durability in combat with no ameliorating skills at stealth or extra initiative passes. I don't have SR5, but I imagine it has similar near-useless archetypes.

[Cain]

Well, I guess you are wrong in that. So if you run a free game, you normally have a lot of optional mission objectives and a lot of times where you may have the right skill at the right time. Using that, you can easy get several the "base" Karma for the run. (Well, on Top of that you get all your good roleplaying stuff for additional 1-2 Karma...)
Again, we are comparing different groups here. We are not talking about one player getting twice the karma of another one. Still, I am not saying, that this would be impossible to pull off, given the rules in 4th edition)

First of all, if you're offering 10 mission objectives per run, you're running some awfully complex runs. Second, even if you're spamming "good roleplay" karma, there's no guarantee the generalist's player will be getting it. Character build has no relation to roleplay ability.

(Yeah, I know the new table gets you around 4 Karma a run and works differently. Well, I say we wait untill that has been revisited. Or I try to play one round of chess with lowyfer in every game. Yeah, I lost but I went up against a dicepool about 60 giving me 10 Karma (which would be more than +7 to regular dicepools in the opposition you will probably face). Talking about using non essential skills to grind karma...)

If you're playing chess with Lowfyr every game, you're probably already running a high-powered game, which means everyone will be earning a lot of karma. Grinding for karma still isn't a viable tactic.

And again, I tell you that I quoted the table out of SR4 and this table is open to give additional points for secondary goals. If you go through it, there is a lot of things you can get additional points for and for a lot of those it can be assumed that it is easier to get if you have some low level skills, which fit the situation. Rollplaying is a big one at that.
If a player with no points in the influence group gives a speech I would not avard anything, because he left character. If he got one or two points in the appropriate skills, I would give rewards.

Unless you're deliberately tailoring the run for Mr. Generalist, there's no guarantee that any of his minor skills will come up, and certainly not often enough to earn three times the karma. And again, assuming you're being a fair GM, that means you're handing out karma like candy to everyone, so Mr. Generalist still won't be earning karma faster than everyone else.

Yeah, and the karma rewards were fucked up in the first printing of SR 4, too. Like I said, play chess with lowyfer for a big bonus to karma gain for the whole group.

By the book, that's only good for one karma (if that, because while difficulty is a factor in earning karma, so is risk). Besides which, if your players know Lowfyr well enough to have weekly chess games with him, you're well outside the normal bounds of Shadowrun.

My whole point is, the idea to have skills outside of your main field is neither good nor bad a priori. The question is how your group goes about it. What do you put focus on?
Generally, if you put a lot of focus on rollplaying and non-linear gameplay, than it is a very good idea to have the influence group at least at 1. If you play Shadowrun like you play the might and magic series, than it is pointless to even invest a single point in social skills, given you are not the face.

Rollplay vs Roleplay has nothing to do with it. Even if you're into heavy min/maxing, investing a little in social skills is a good idea. The goal of min/maxing is to minimize your weaknesses, not leave huge gaping ones; hence why, in SR4.5, you never saw a well-optimized character with Uncouth. And while having skills outside your specialty is never a bad idea, having a lot of them at the expense of your specialty is a really bad move. In fact, having a lot of low dice pools is sometimes worse than not having any skill ranks at all; if you don't have any skill in something, you're less likely to try it, and thus become more likely to critically fumble. It's certainly not going to net you a ton of karma by grinding, although you might get it for repeated critical fumbles.

[Irion]

@Cain

Unless you're deliberately tailoring the run for Mr. Generalist, there's no guarantee that any of his minor skills will come up, and certainly not often enough to earn three times the karma. And again, assuming you're being a fair GM, that means you're handing out karma like candy to everyone, so Mr. Generalist still won't be earning karma faster than everyone else.
QUOTE

Sure, as there is no garantee that any of the high skills of the rest will come up.

But honestly, I do not get you. Everything you say, goes against your statement that BP is better or equally bad as Karmagen. Everything you say leads to one conclusion: Karmagen is MUCH better!

It's certainly not going to net you a ton of karma by grinding, although you might get it for repeated critical fumbles.

Again, it depends on the GM. One general approach for non railroaded games is to have multible lines.
So for example one character gets in a room. (Now I am generally speaking not specificly SR)
There are three objects (because the GM did not know which character would be in this position), one is a locked chest, one is encoded transcription on a wall and one is an injured person.
Now, every one of those would be enough to get further along with the game. (Just to get things straight the room is meant as metaphor for the state of the run you are in->see every kind of adventure can be moddled as a dungeon)
Now, every single one would net you a reward, sooner or later and one point of karma (for the group or the single player, it does not matter actually). Now, if the difficulty for each test is low, a character with a lot of low skills, will probably get every single reward. Again, if you run Might and Magic style and never split the party, well you get all of those rewards. But, and that the major issue, you won't get the rewards the other players a getting at the same time.

It is beyond me how one can argue that the significance of skills and the need for higher dicepools is not dependend on the gamestyle.
Well, there is one exception: Magic! Because magic is able to replace a lot of skills and like that enable you to use one dicepool for a lot of different stuff. (Which is again one of the reasons SR4 turned into magic run)

[Cain]

But honestly, I do not get you. Everything you say, goes against your statement that BP is better or equally bad as Karmagen. Everything you say leads to one conclusion: Karmagen is MUCH better!

Better how?

Easier math? Nope.

Faster generation? Nope?

Prevents min/maxed monstrosities? Nope.

Consistent characters? Nope.

The problem is that you can easily end up with a gimped character, running right alongside a powergamer dream. Karmagen doesn't do anything to prevent that. BP doesn't either, so don't think I'm suggesting such.

Again, it depends on the GM. One general approach for non railroaded games is to have multible lines.
So for example one character gets in a room. (Now I am generally speaking not specificly SR)
There are three objects (because the GM did not know which character would be in this position), one is a locked chest, one is encoded transcription on a wall and one is an injured person.
Now, every one of those would be enough to get further along with the game. (Just to get things straight the room is meant as metaphor for the state of the run you are in->see every kind of adventure can be moddled as a dungeon)
Now, every single one would net you a reward, sooner or later and one point of karma (for the group or the single player, it does not matter actually). Now, if the difficulty for each test is low, a character with a lot of low skills, will probably get every single reward. Again, if you run Might and Magic style and never split the party, well you get all of those rewards. But, and that the major issue, you won't get the rewards the other players a getting at the same time.

That's still railroading, and favoritism to boot. You're specifically tailoring the mission so the generalist can earn extra karma. I'm sorry, I prefer a fair game.

It is beyond me how one can argue that the significance of skills and the need for higher dicepools is not dependend on the gamestyle.
Well, there is one exception: Magic! Because magic is able to replace a lot of skills and like that enable you to use one dicepool for a lot of different stuff. (Which is again one of the reasons SR4 turned into magic run)

SR4.5 is a linear game. (So's SR5, although it's not quite as straightforward.) Regardless how you play it, the more dice you roll, the better you'll do. That's just how the system works. Generalists don't work, thematically or mechanically-- they always lose out to properly built specialists. There is absolutely no version of SR4.5, no gameplay, that can overcome that simple fact.

[Irion]

@Cain

Better how?

Easier math? Nope.

Faster generation? Nope?

Prevents min/maxed monstrosities? Nope.

Consistent characters? Nope.

The problem is that you can easily end up with a gimped character, running right alongside a powergamer dream. Karmagen doesn't do anything to prevent that. BP doesn't either, so don't think I'm suggesting such.

You are aware of the differance between an argument and an opinion.
Argument: Specialists are superior to generalists because they can depend on their team for things they can't do and Shadowrun is a group game. Therefor BP is worse than Karma, since it further prefers specialists to generalists and therefor punishs players desicions twice.

That's still railroading, and favoritism to boot. You're specifically tailoring the mission so the generalist can earn extra karma. I'm sorry, I prefer a fair game.

No, it is not. It is the question of the difficulty level. If you scale the difficulty of the game down, you will be successful with lower dicepools. It is as simple as that. So the specialist will be nearly 100% certain that he will get the one objective, but the generalist will be 80% certain for every objectiv. It is as easy as that. And lowering the difficulty is NOT railroading, sorry!

SR4.5 is a linear game. (So's SR5, although it's not quite as straightforward.) Regardless how you play it, the more dice you roll, the better you'll do. That's just how the system works. Generalists don't work, thematically or mechanically-- they always lose out to properly built specialists. There is absolutely no version of SR4.5, no gameplay, that can overcome that simple fact.

Only if hits matter. It is as simple as that. If it is a success/fail question, than the differance between 10 die and 20 die for an unopposed roll, does not matter much.
On the other hand their are instances where double the dicepool is much better than a simple duplication of power. For example for summoning spirits. And as I told you (and as everybody knows) thats where the game breaks. Thats why you should always aim to get less than linear results to achiev a stable system. You can't by definition not break such a system. (But due to keeping thins simple while still offering diversity you can't stay true to it all the time. So you have to take care that in those exceptions can't break the system, for example by using hard limits.

[Cain]

You are aware of the differance between an argument and an opinion.

Yes, which is why I presented facts to you.

No, it is not. It is the question of the difficulty level. If you scale the difficulty of the game down, you will be successful with lower dicepools. It is as simple as that. So the specialist will be nearly 100% certain that he will get the one objective, but the generalist will be 80% certain for every objectiv. It is as easy as that. And lowering the difficulty is NOT railroading, sorry!

No, what's railroading is deliberately setting the challenges to favor the generalist. By offering a lot of challenges designed to leave the specialist in the cold, you're showing favoritism.

Only if hits matter. It is as simple as that. If it is a success/fail question, than the differance between 10 die and 20 die for an unopposed roll, does not matter much.

Successes always matter. Shadowrun is a degree of success system, and you can tell the difference between barely succeeding and succeeding with flair by how many successes you rolled. It's always been that way.

[Moirdryd]

Ultimately play however you want.

Arguing Generalists fail vs Specialists is purely a case by case situation. I believe in the Shadowrunner character being a specialist who gains versatility over the course of a campaign while also improving in their area of focus. However, depending entirely on how a game runs, the roleplaying element may well ake characters not meetings with contacts, friends of their contacts and even total strangers, without their team being ever present.

IMO a Good starting character should be able to show How they survive day to day in the Sprawl. Not just how they perform on mission. Because its something that will likely come up in game. Other games vary of course. Karma gen and BPs offer greater flexibility in chargen but nothing else, the greater cost numbers, diminished returns and everything else cited is just a physchological illusion of restriction. 10xp in WoD is likely worth a lot more to that char than 10Karma is in SR and 10XP in L5R is worth alot more again, but in D&D it's basically nothing until its amassed for a level in the the warhammer RPGs it's 1/10th of the cheapest advancement. If getting an attribute to 5 costs 4stat points from your priority option, 30build Points or 70Karma in chargen... Well you get 5priority options, a couple of hundred BPs or several hundred Karma. Inflation of costs = Inflation of starting points.