Character Generation - Best Bang for the Buck, 5th ed. Options

[Cain]

IMO a Good starting character should be able to show How they survive day to day in the Sprawl. Not just how they perform on mission. Because its something that will likely come up in game. Other games vary of course. Karma gen and BPs offer greater flexibility in chargen but nothing else, the greater cost numbers, diminished returns and everything else cited is just a physchological illusion of restriction. 10xp in WoD is likely worth a lot more to that char than 10Karma is in SR and 10XP in L5R is worth alot more again, but in D&D it's basically nothing until its amassed for a level in the the warhammer RPGs it's 1/10th of the cheapest advancement. If getting an attribute to 5 costs 4stat points from your priority option, 30build Points or 70Karma in chargen... Well you get 5priority options, a couple of hundred BPs or several hundred Karma. Inflation of costs = Inflation of starting points.

It's a bit more than just a psychological limitation. Really, every system has advantages and drawbacks. What I look for in a system is consistency: making over the top characters isn't a big deal, if all characters come out about the same. But when systems allow for a huge disparity in power, and run trap options right alongside power tricks, you're in for trouble.

[Glyph]

You have alluded to both several times, Cain. What are some specific examples of what you consider trap options or power tricks? Some things, I consider features rather than bugs (specialization is encouraged, magic and augmentation give disproportionately cheap benefits).

[Cain]

You have alluded to both several times, Cain. What are some specific examples of what you consider trap options or power tricks? Some things, I consider features rather than bugs (specialization is encouraged, magic and augmentation give disproportionately cheap benefits).

Of Karmagen?

The biggest trap example is that karmagen supposedly encourages generalization. However, generalists simply aren't viable in Shadowrun.

The biggest power trick is that it doesn't actually stop power creep; but it does allow you to squeeze points out of more areas. Instead of a simple trade, one pool for another, you can shave points off lots of areas and combine them to get one higher attribute. For example, in BP, specializations are a good deal; but common advice is to wait until you've earned karma, because that ratio is even better. Since karmagen works on the same system, instead of raising your base skill, it's easier to get low skills and specialize them in the most common areas. Net result is that you end up about the same, or maybe even slightly ahead, on dice. And because the ratio is different, you end up saving a lot across the board, which enables you to pump one or two tricks sky high.

Now, BP isn't any better when it comes to powergaming. But since it is more straightforward, karmagen actually rewards system mastery even more than BP does! BP is easy to powergame, karmagen takes effort. However, I'm sure you know how hard powergamers will work to break a system.

[Shortstraw]

As you can see, I am not making that up... It is Canon... It is The Standard that the game sets.
The fact that you like to flaunt the standard does not invalidate that Standard.

It is the level that mall cops have in pistols. Acceptable for most jobs.

Rating 7 or veteran is what a rifleman with a combat tour has with automatics (although it could be 5(7) specialized in assault rifles).

[FuelDrop]

The fact is that 8-10 dice means that you can hit an average person (dodge 6) with semi-automatic fire more often than you miss. 12 dice and an automatic weapon is easily enough to deal with average threats in average circumstances. Most security guards are going to go through most of their careers without having to fire their guns, and 7 dice (3 skill 3 attribute 1 laser sight) is not an unreasonable estimate of their skill level if they dutifully follow the corp-mandated training to the bare minimum they're required to.

Higher dicepools due to augmentation and training are required for adverse conditions and against elite opponents, neither of which are going to be a factor for the vast majority of armed individuals in the shadowrun world. So yes, average guards with 3-4 skill ranks in a job skill is about right. Most shadowrunners end up going against far more elite opposition in conditions that would make it impossible for lesser marksmen to reliably hit anything at all and so the bar for Shadowrunner skills is higher. Ditto any individual who's lives depend on their skills and have done for some time.

[thorya]

The fact is that 8-10 dice means that you can hit an average person (dodge 6) with semi-automatic fire more often than you miss. 12 dice and an automatic weapon is easily enough to deal with average threats in average circumstances. Most security guards are going to go through most of their careers without having to fire their guns, and 7 dice (3 skill 3 attribute 1 laser sight) is not an unreasonable estimate of their skill level if they dutifully follow the corp-mandated training to the bare minimum they're required to.

Higher dicepools due to augmentation and training are required for adverse conditions and against elite opponents, neither of which are going to be a factor for the vast majority of armed individuals in the shadowrun world. So yes, average guards with 3-4 skill ranks in a job skill is about right. Most shadowrunners end up going against far more elite opposition in conditions that would make it impossible for lesser marksmen to reliably hit anything at all and so the bar for Shadowrunner skills is higher. Ditto any individual who's lives depend on their skills and have done for some time.

I disagree with the premise that most guards don't have to fire their guns. Given how prevalent gangers and trolls with pink mohawks firing rocket launchers are at stuffer shacks and how trigger happy everyone seems to be on the freeway, I would say that the average mall cop in the shadowrun world fires their gun on a weekly basis. I mean, there are people willing to take on the future equivalent of the Coca-Cola and Microsoft combined with the U.S. army and Hogwarts, for slightly more than a month's rent. There have to be people willing to launch armed raids on a mall to save a few nuyen on a pair of pants.

[Cain]

I disagree with the premise that most guards don't have to fire their guns. Given how prevalent gangers and trolls with pink mohawks firing rocket launchers are at stuffer shacks and how trigger happy everyone seems to be on the freeway, I would say that the average mall cop in the shadowrun world fires their gun on a weekly basis. I mean, there are people willing to take on the future equivalent of the Coca-Cola and Microsoft combined with the U.S. army and Hogwarts, for slightly more than a month's rent. There have to be people willing to launch armed raids on a mall to save a few nuyen on a pair of pants.

I don't know about that. A security guard's job isn't to stop armed opposition single handedly. Instead, their job is to delay them long enough for high powered backup to arrive. Nowadys that's the cops, but in Shadowrun, that could be a corporate SWAT team, like the Red Samurai. They don't need to be expert marksmen to pin down a runner team.

[toturi]

The biggest trap example is that karmagen supposedly encourages generalization. However, generalists simply aren't viable in Shadowrun.

I would like to know precisely what you mean by a generalist. I am unsure of what your are refering to and we may end up talking about 2 different animals.

Karmagen encourages you to buy more skills at lower levels. An extreme example would be to buy 1 in every Active skill possible before taking 2 in anything else. If this is what you are refering to in the supposition that karmagen encourages generalisation, I would agree.

[Cain]

I would like to know precisely what you mean by a generalist. I am unsure of what your are refering to and we may end up talking about 2 different animals.

Karmagen encourages you to buy more skills at lower levels. An extreme example would be to buy 1 in every Active skill possible before taking 2 in anything else. If this is what you are refering to in the supposition that karmagen encourages generalisation, I would agree.

That's basically it. A character with a lot of low dice pools in a lot of skills, especially if it comes at the expense of a specialization.

[Tymeaus Jalynsfe...]

No, what's railroading is deliberately setting the challenges to favor the generalist. By offering a lot of challenges designed to leave the specialist in the cold, you're showing favoritism.

Conversely, by offering challenges that only a Specialist with 20+ Dice can succeed at, then you have just favored the Specialist over the generalist and therefore are jusf showing favoritism to a different group. If you actually present a worls that makes snese, the Specialist will succeed right alongside the Generalist. He will just succeed with a few more hits is all. As such, EITHER is capable of succeeding at their tasks. After all... the world is not designed so that only the best of the best can succeed. After all, Joe Average Day Worker still has to be capable of succeeding at his job.

[Tymeaus Jalynsfe...]

The biggest trap example is that karmagen supposedly encourages generalization. However, generalists simply aren't viable in Shadowrun.

Seeing as how MOST of my Characters are More generalist than Specialist, I can say that you are completely and totally wrong on that opinion. *shrug*
It all comes down to how you see the system, and where you set the World's Challenge Level. If you cannot ever succeed without having 20+ Dice, then you argument would hold some water. Since that is not the expected play style (just look at SR4A and you will see that) then you are arguing form the stand point of your own personal preferences and not what the game world establishes as the baseline.

[yesferatu]

I'm going to vote for the generalists too. I usually try to get as many skills at 3 or so as possible.
It really depends on your GM though. If all your GM has you do is shoot people soak damage, it would be stupid to put points anywhere else.
If you never need to talk your way into something or fix anything or drive anything or climb anything, those points are basically wasted.
I'm squeezing more karma out of the build system so I have "extra" points to spend in non-core areas.

[Cain]

Seeing as how MOST of my Characters are More generalist than Specialist, I can say that you are completely and totally wrong on that opinion. *shrug*
It all comes down to how you see the system, and where you set the World's Challenge Level. If you cannot ever succeed without having 20+ Dice, then you argument would hold some water. Since that is not the expected play style (just look at SR4A and you will see that) then you are arguing form the stand point of your own personal preferences and not what the game world establishes as the baseline.

Actually, from what I've seen of your characters, i'd classify them as specialists. We may differ on how many dice is required, but even you favor some skills and abilities over others. What's more, based on what you consider adequate, your character go for decent select midrange dice pools, rather than lots of low ones.

The generalist is a character who trades a specialty for lots of low level skills. That's not viable in Shadowrun, thematically and mechanically. If your character can't bring something useful to the team, they're not going to fit in.

[Cain]

Seeing as how MOST of my Characters are More generalist than Specialist, I can say that you are completely and totally wrong on that opinion. *shrug*
It all comes down to how you see the system, and where you set the World's Challenge Level. If you cannot ever succeed without having 20+ Dice, then you argument would hold some water. Since that is not the expected play style (just look at SR4A and you will see that) then you are arguing form the stand point of your own personal preferences and not what the game world establishes as the baseline.

Actually, from what I've seen of your characters, i'd classify them as specialists. We may differ on how many dice is required, but even you favor some skills and abilities over others. What's more, based on what you consider adequate, your character go for decent select midrange dice pools, rather than lots of low ones.

The generalist is a character who trades a specialty for lots of low level skills. That's not viable in Shadowrun, thematically and mechanically. If your character can't bring something useful to the team, they're not going to fit in.

[Cain]

Conversely, by offering challenges that only a Specialist with 20+ Dice can succeed at, then you have just favored the Specialist over the generalist and therefore are jusf showing favoritism to a different group. If you actually present a worls that makes snese, the Specialist will succeed right alongside the Generalist. He will just succeed with a few more hits is all. As such, EITHER is capable of succeeding at their tasks. After all... the world is not designed so that only the best of the best can succeed. After all, Joe Average Day Worker still has to be capable of succeeding at his job.

"Right alongside" is fine. A good GM should design things so everyone progresses evenly. However, Irion is suggesting that a generalist can grind to earn *three times* the karma! That isn't possible without blatant GM favoritism!

[Tymeaus Jalynsfe...]

"Right alongside" is fine. A good GM should design things so everyone progresses evenly. However, Irion is suggesting that a generalist can grind to earn *three times* the karma! That isn't possible without blatant GM favoritism!

Gotcha... Wires apparently crossed on my reading comprehension. Apologies. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)

[Tymeaus Jalynsfe...]

Actually, from what I've seen of your characters, i'd classify them as specialists. We may differ on how many dice is required, but even you favor some skills and abilities over others. What's more, based on what you consider adequate, your character go for decent select midrange dice pools, rather than lots of low ones.

The generalist is a character who trades a specialty for lots of low level skills. That's not viable in Shadowrun, thematically and mechanically. If your character can't bring something useful to the team, they're not going to fit in.

Hmmm.... Okay - so the difference is in the classification of Specialist. I truly do consider most of my characters to be Generalists, but I do tend to pursue midrange DP's in the vast majority of skills, with a few slightly higher skills to differentiate Primary from Secondary/Tertiary. I can live with that. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)

[Irion]

"Right alongside" is fine. A good GM should design things so everyone progresses evenly. However, Irion is suggesting that a generalist can grind to earn *three times* the karma! That isn't possible without blatant GM favoritism!

That was not Irions point. The point Irion was making was a comparism with a group of specialists with an other group of generalists. Irion just added the notion, that even within the same group there is (by the rules of the 4th edition) the possibility to give a lot of extra karma. And again, even if you do it for the whole group, it will influence the way characters are build.

If you do not like the karma angle, there are a lot of situations where you can kill characters for not having the right skills.
The notion, that high dicepools in your focus are everything you need is flawed, if making this statement in general. Thats pretty much all Irion is saying.

[Sendaz]

That was not Irions point. The point Irion was making was a comparism with a group of specialists with an other group of generalists. Irion just added the notion, that even within the same group there is (by the rules of the 4th edition) the possibility to give a lot of extra karma. And again, even if you do it for the whole group, it will influence the way characters are build.
<snip>
Thats pretty much all Irion is saying.

And now Irion is referring to themselves in the third person? (IMG:style_emoticons/default/question.gif)

Will the real Slim Shady please stand up? (IMG:style_emoticons/default/nyahnyah.gif)

[Cain]

That was not Irions point. The point Irion was making was a comparism with a group of specialists with an other group of generalists. Irion just added the notion, that even within the same group there is (by the rules of the 4th edition) the possibility to give a lot of extra karma. And again, even if you do it for the whole group, it will influence the way characters are build.

If you do not like the karma angle, there are a lot of situations where you can kill characters for not having the right skills.
The notion, that high dicepools in your focus are everything you need is flawed, if making this statement in general. Thats pretty much all Irion is saying.

Since when have I said high dicepools in your focus are all you need?

All shadowrunners need to be capable, or at least functional, in a lot of noncombat areas. You need to be able to get along socially, you have to be at least a little sneaky, and you have to be able to deal with 2070 technology without reading the instruction manual. Other skills aren't as essential, but nice to have-- Armorer is always useful, because everyone packs guns and armor, First Aid is never out of place, Hardware (to pick locks) often comes in handy, being able to drive a car... there's lots of things a shadowrunner should be capable of.

What isn't true is that you need a lot in those areas. Sometimes your default is enough; depending on your attributes and the skill in question, you might have a higher dice pool than someone who is trained. Other skills you can farm off to other members of the team: you only need one team Armorer, for example. Skills that are useful for multiple people don't need to be very high: it's really nice when everyone has First Aid, but you can share medkits, so no one person needs to have a lot of skill in it.

Even with essential skills, skills everyone absolutely needs, you don't have to have a lot in them. For example, if you have a team Face, you won't be needing Negotiation, and Leadership is really not useful for the most part. So, buying the Influence group isn't worth it. However, since a guard might ask you questions and you need to bluff your way out, or that Mafia don might need an explanation as to what you're doing with his sister, Con and Etiquette are worth investing in, at least a little, and specializing won't hurt you at all.

The concept of a non-social shadowrunner-- the archtypical Uncouth troll, for example-- isn't an example of min maxing, it's an example of gimping your character. When you min/max, the goal is to minimize your weaknesses.

The difference between a well-rounded specialist and a useless generalist, however, is 1) the specialist has a focus. They bring a specific skill set to the table. And 2) The difference between a good specialist and a generalist in critical ares isn't very large. For example, the generalist I mentioned earlier has 7 dice in just about everything. A charisma 1 troll, with Etiquette 3 and a specialization, will be rolling 6 dice. That's not really much of a gain.

Even in those random, off the wall skills, there might not be a difference. An Agility-maxed character might be able to default and have more than 7 dice in just about any combat skill, so spending those points on monowhip didn't do you much good. (In fact, since your dice pool is smaller, you're more likely to cut your own arm off.) Sure, the GM can contrive a situation where Pilot Aerospace might be useful, but that's a kind of favoritism and the character might not succeed anyway. And besides, if a runner has to pilot the Space Shuttle, they're already screwed.

Finally: Killing characters for not having the right skills? *Really*? Now you're going to not only design challenges solely for the benefit of our hypothetical generalist, but you'll actively punish the other players in the process? Can't you see how that's favoritism in the worst way?

[FuelDrop]

The thing is that most characters are likely to max out either Agility or Logic, whichever is their primary attribute. Since between these attributes cover about 70% of the game's skills a specialist with a massive Agility counts as a physical generalist, while one with a maxed out logic is solid at the vast majority of mental skills. A Specialist will then focus on a core set of skills and likely splash a few ranks into some secondaries to cover their bases. Their default on attribute linked skills is likely to be in the 6-8 dice range, which is often enough to scrape by. A generalist who goes the same path might have 8-10 dice in a lot more skills, but the fact is that by not focusing he doesn't excel at any of them.

[Glyph]

A generalist with decent augmentations, adept abilities, or spells can still be effective. The only way someone can get those really useless 4-7 dice pools for everything is to be a mundane and lightly or non-augmented, in addition to being a generalist. And if someone does that, either the GM has completely failed to explain the very premise of the game (the collaborative specialist aspect, the dangerous work in a dangerous world aspect, and the transhumanism aspect), or the player is stubbornly ignoring all of that to create a special snowflake, in what will likely become a case of the Stormwind fallacy meeting Darwin's law.

[Cain]

A generalist with decent augmentations, adept abilities, or spells can still be effective. The only way someone can get those really useless 4-7 dice pools for everything is to be a mundane and lightly or non-augmented, in addition to being a generalist. And if someone does that, either the GM has completely failed to explain the very premise of the game (the collaborative specialist aspect, the dangerous work in a dangerous world aspect, and the transhumanism aspect), or the player is stubbornly ignoring all of that to create a special snowflake, in what will likely become a case of the Stormwind fallacy meeting Darwin's law.

Not quite.

In SR4.5, one potential trap is the mystic adept. Mystic adepts can be optimized, but if you go for an even split of magic and adept abilities, you'll easily end up useless at all of them. I had a character just like that in my games: he insisted on it, and eventually was grudgingly convinced to rewrite into a pure adept. With low magical skills, and a low effective Magic, he couldn't throw spells above force 2 without overcasting, and frequently took drain from them (he favored elemental attacks). Unfortunately, Force 2 spells were really easy to resist, so he sometimes took more damage than the targets did. His conjuring was equally laughable, since force 2 spirits are only a small step above watchers. His adept powers were only slightly better, but he was a melee adept, and so he didn't have the PP to invest in both Improved skill, Increased Reflexes, and various other powers that would enable him to close the gap without getting shot.

The only reason I even approved the character was because he was the only spellcaster at the time, and he agreed to take a reasonable amount of Counterspelling. So he actually had something useful to contribute, even if he was more fragile than the rigger, that fact made him worth protecting. Eventually, we added a full mage, so I started pushing him to rewrite into a full melee adept. After he tried Banishing a force 10 Master Shedim single-handedly (with a Banishing of 1!) and needing to burn Edge to survive, he agreed to it. So, the near-death experience burned out his spellcasting abilities, but he was able to recover.

Anyway, the point of that longwinded story is that you can be Awakened and still be a generalist/useless. While he was a bit of a special snowflake, the bigger problem was that he was entranced by too many cool shinies, and couldn't bear to give any of them up. He wanted to be good at everything, and ended up nearly good for nothing.

[Shortstraw]

A generalist with decent augmentations, adept abilities, or spells can still be effective....

I seem to remember a troll mage with skillwires posted here that was a good generalist.

[Irion]

Since when have I said high dicepools in your focus are all you need?

All shadowrunners need to be capable, or at least functional, in a lot of noncombat areas. You need to be able to get along socially, you have to be at least a little sneaky, and you have to be able to deal with 2070 technology without reading the instruction manual. Other skills aren't as essential, but nice to have-- Armorer is always useful, because everyone packs guns and armor, First Aid is never out of place, Hardware (to pick locks) often comes in handy, being able to drive a car... there's lots of things a shadowrunner should be capable of.

What isn't true is that you need a lot in those areas. Sometimes your default is enough; depending on your attributes and the skill in question, you might have a higher dice pool than someone who is trained. Other skills you can farm off to other members of the team: you only need one team Armorer, for example. Skills that are useful for multiple people don't need to be very high: it's really nice when everyone has First Aid, but you can share medkits, so no one person needs to have a lot of skill in it.

Again, it depends on the game. If you never split the party, it is correct. But if you play a more free game, which focus on roleplaying your individual character and not playing as a group, things look differently. If you do so, the group will be split most of the time, or are you always with your friends?