Run and Gun "Preview" #1 Options

[Draco18s]

So why can't the wired reflexes have some component that still transmits at normal neural speed when it loses power? I mean it would kind of suck if your cyberware was faulty and you were walking down the street and just died because you have no central nervous system. That seems kind of dumb to me. I'd think redundancy would be built into something so critical wouldn't you?

This is where I come back to consistency of the rules and their implementation.

That said, not all
devices are completely useless when bricked. A vibrosword
is still sharp, a roto-drone glides to the ground
on auto-gyro, a lock stays locked. The firing pin on an
assault rifle might not work, but its bayonet works just
fine for stabbing smug hackers. And you can’t exactly
brick a katana, ne?

A vibrosword is still sharp ("you can't brick a katana") and a roto-drone still glides to the ground on auto-gyro,* and firing pins on an assault rifle is jammed.

This is where the problem comes in.

The firing pin gets jammed. This is not something that should occur based on the rules for electronic devices and bricking because last I checked this was a mechanical operation. I don't see how bricking the smartgun system would produce this effect unless it uses electronic firing in which case there is no firing pin to jam.

Now we've opened up a whole can of worms. According to this one example we have a failed computer locking up the physical operation of the device, ruining its base functionality.

Unfortunately they offered no examples involving cyberware. If your arm is bricked, can you bend the elbow? If your leg is bricked, will it support your weight? If your eyes are bricked, can you still see?

None of these questions are answered and if the answer is "no" then what happens when you ask "if my cybernetic spinal chord is bricked, can I still move?"

The answer is "no."

The problem is that the answer probably is no based on the examples provided. Firing pins jam, electronics shut off, doors stay locked. Your cyberarm cannot process the electronic signals from your brain, it won't move. It's functionally a broken collar bone (or elbow in the case of a lower limb replacement). Your leg? Well that depends on if the joins lock up or swing free when the device is bricked. Could go either way.

But your spine?

Processing electrical signals is what it does. If it can't do that any more (all the electronic parts have failed) then I guess you're paralyzed.

The source of the problem is that the rules are silent on what happens to cyberware and the general rules (and fluff) that are all we have to determine what happens does not look like this:

The device that is bricked loses its wireless bonus, as well as any other wireless features, but otherwise continues to function.

We don't have that. Instead we have

Catches fire, emits smoke, causes sparks, stays locked, jammed firing pin, and floats to the ground

There is NO interpretation of this which can be applied to cyberware and non-cyberware consistently that does not either:

a) results in bricked reaction enhancers leaving you paralyzed (because all electronic functions cease, and so do some mechanical ones)
b) results in bricked assault rifles still being guns (because the mechanical failures are non-sense)

*Questionable, as when I've seen demonstrations of this it still involves some degree of control over the aircraft. That is, the controls still work, but the engine isn't revving. In real helis the controls are all manual run on muscle power (in the most extreme of cases). For model aircraft the electronics are still functional and receiving input from the remote control device. But if the computer itself fails and is no longer running on autopilot..?

[binarywraith]

^^ Nail on the head right there. If the rules said 'a bricked device loses all of its wireless bonuses and becomes equivalent to a throwback' then we'd be in business with the interpretation people want to spin to avoid characters getting hosed. Sadly, that isn't what the rules say.

[Nath]

In real helis the controls are all manual run on muscle power (in the most extreme of cases).

Just as a side note, this is about to change. The NH90 was the first military helicopter with electrical commands the Comanche was also supposed to before it was cancelled) , and the Bell 525 ought to be the first civilian one in 2015.

[Draco18s]

Just as a side note, this is about to change. The NH90 was the first military helicopter with electrical commands the Comanche was also supposed to before it was cancelled) , and the Bell 525 ought to be the first civilian one in 2015.

Now I know!
And knowledge is power!

[Sengir]

On the subject of the Wireless (and even nonWireless, surprising no one has mentioned that) +Social thing. It does mention that it only applies if the clothing is full visible

...although amazingly, it does not demand any AR capabilities...

[Smash]

Because then what is the point of it being brickable? We've already established that it has no honest reason to have wireless access in the first place, being solely a synaptic/nervous/muscular system acceleration system.

If you can build a redundant system that isn't susceptible to outside interference, then what is the in-game logic for not having built the whole damn thing that way in the first place, to save the money of having to have a doubled system?

Because to operate optimally it needs that outside connection. They have already built the protection into the devices, 'it's called 'wireless off'. If you don't want to be vulnerable, just don't turn it on, just don't complain that you can't have the bonus AND be invulnerable to attack. Sometimes I think that a lot of people forget how things work in reality. A lot of things get designed in ways that they are vulnerable. Look at the internet. According to your logic it would have never been built....... except that it was.

[Smash]

This is where I come back to consistency of the rules and their implementation.



A vibrosword is still sharp ("you can't brick a katana") and a roto-drone still glides to the ground on auto-gyro,* and firing pins on an assault rifle is jammed.

This is where the problem comes in.

The firing pin gets jammed. This is not something that should occur based on the rules for electronic devices and bricking because last I checked this was a mechanical operation. I don't see how bricking the smartgun system would produce this effect unless it uses electronic firing in which case there is no firing pin to jam.

Now we've opened up a whole can of worms. According to this one example we have a failed computer locking up the physical operation of the device, ruining its base functionality.

Unfortunately they offered no examples involving cyberware. If your arm is bricked, can you bend the elbow? If your leg is bricked, will it support your weight? If your eyes are bricked, can you still see?

None of these questions are answered and if the answer is "no" then what happens when you ask "if my cybernetic spinal chord is bricked, can I still move?"

The answer is "no."

The problem is that the answer probably is no based on the examples provided. Firing pins jam, electronics shut off, doors stay locked. Your cyberarm cannot process the electronic signals from your brain, it won't move. It's functionally a broken collar bone (or elbow in the case of a lower limb replacement). Your leg? Well that depends on if the joins lock up or swing free when the device is bricked. Could go either way.

But your spine?

Processing electrical signals is what it does. If it can't do that any more (all the electronic parts have failed) then I guess you're paralyzed.

The source of the problem is that the rules are silent on what happens to cyberware and the general rules (and fluff) that are all we have to determine what happens does not look like this:

We don't have that. Instead we have

There is NO interpretation of this which can be applied to cyberware and non-cyberware consistently that does not either:

a) results in bricked reaction enhancers leaving you paralyzed (because all electronic functions cease, and so do some mechanical ones)
b) results in bricked assault rifles still being guns (because the mechanical failures are non-sense)

*Questionable, as when I've seen demonstrations of this it still involves some degree of control over the aircraft. That is, the controls still work, but the engine isn't revving. In real helis the controls are all manual run on muscle power (in the most extreme of cases). For model aircraft the electronics are still functional and receiving input from the remote control device. But if the computer itself fails and is no longer running on autopilot..?

That's all well and good, but why don't we all then assume that the interpretation that doesn't make everyone irrationally fear wireless and by extension, 5th edition is the one we should probably use? By your own admission you say there are no definitive rules. Why assume the one that renders the game unplayable in your own opinion is the one we should be using?

[apple]

Because we like to build upon well designed and thought out rules, not rules which are considered shit by the very same authors who wrote them. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)

SYL

[Draco18s]

That's all well and good, but why don't we all then assume that the interpretation that doesn't make everyone irrationally fear wireless and by extension, 5th edition is the one we should probably use? By your own admission you say there are no definitive rules. Why assume the one that renders the game unplayable in your own opinion is the one we should be using?

One interpretation makes the game unplayable.
The other makes the entire system pointless and superfluous.

Which system makes more sense? One that no one would play or the one that no one would use?

[Smash]

One interpretation makes the game unplayable.
The other makes the entire system pointless and superfluous.

Which system makes more sense? One that no one would play or the one that no one would use?

Well there's clearly as 3rd option which is that the system is completely playable, best of the lot so far, and is played by many.

[Shinobi Killfist]

Well there's clearly as 3rd option which is that the system is completely playable, best of the lot so far, and is played by many.

Is that what I do almost every saturday and sunday?

[RHat]

Sure, your spinal cord would still work. Except of course that the GM has to account for a camp fire with sparks *in your spinal cord*.

No, the GM has to have it be bricked in a way that doesn't involve that; it's indisputable that the list of bricking consequences is inclusive, not exclusive.

[Jaid]

Because to operate optimally it needs that outside connection. They have already built the protection into the devices, 'it's called 'wireless off'. If you don't want to be vulnerable, just don't turn it on, just don't complain that you can't have the bonus AND be invulnerable to attack. Sometimes I think that a lot of people forget how things work in reality. A lot of things get designed in ways that they are vulnerable. Look at the internet. According to your logic it would have never been built....... except that it was.

ummm... no.

the internet is the way it is because it's designed to allow communication between millions of users across the world (initially, it's purpose was to allow communication between a somewhat smaller group, but it's function was still communication with others), and is routinely used for that purpose.

when we have a system where we want two devices to communicate with each other, and we want it to be reliable and secure, we generally use some form of cable. heck, even if it's only reliability we're after, we generally use cable; even when we have two devices that are physically separated from each other we won't necessarily use wireless; for example, most TV remotes use an infrared beam of light. probably because it's more energy-efficient than broadcasting in every single direction and more reliable than opening up your device to every random electronic signal that might pass through the area.

[RHat]

ummm... no.

the internet is the way it is because it's designed to allow communication between millions of users across the world (initially, it's purpose was to allow communication between a somewhat smaller group, but it's function was still communication with others), and is routinely used for that purpose.

when we have a system where we want two devices to communicate with each other, and we want it to be reliable and secure, we generally use some form of cable. heck, even if it's only reliability we're after, we generally use cable; even when we have two devices that are physically separated from each other we won't necessarily use wireless; for example, most TV remotes use an infrared beam of light. probably because it's more energy-efficient than broadcasting in every single direction and more reliable than opening up your device to every random electronic signal that might pass through the area.

However, in SR, we have a system designed to allow any given device to communicate seamlessly with an indeterminate number of devices - a firearm, for example, might minimally be connected to a smartgun system, a system offering DNI control, and a commlink for security. However, it may then become connected to any number of image links or similar to share the footage, switch to be connected to a different system for security (such as a deck with a stronger firewall), and on, and on. I can't really think of anything that is ONLY a point to point connection at design phase.

[Werewindlefr]

No, the GM has to have it be bricked in a way that doesn't involve that; it's indisputable that the list of bricking consequences is inclusive, not exclusive.

But that's dangerously close to the rule 0 fallacy. The problem is that the actual description of bricking either says too much or not enough. Whatever is listed there has unfortunate implications: all of the examples given in the list (the ones which could apply, because there's no firing pin on cyberware) would result in critical, possibly deadly damage for the user. In fact, there's no reason to think that cyberware is magically immune to the sparks and overheating when non-cyberware devices are not. What you are doing is invoking GM fiat - rule 0 - to justify that cyberware systematically fails in a milder fashion.

And why should being "imaginative" restrict itself to coming up with mild annoyances for cyberware? If I'm being imaginative with wired relfexes bricking, I'll say that all the unfortunate victim's limbs bend the wrong way after the electronics embedded in his spine forces them into harmful positions. That's entirely in line with the rest of the examples that were given of "spectacular failure", because the paragraph is so unclear and confusing.

My point is that if they should have thought about the implications and issues raised by what they had written, and either replaced it by some lighter rules with fewer such implications, or given a more detailed list of what happens when a device is bricked. The only guidelines that were given point to severe or deadly consequences for reflex-ware or headware failures. It doesn't have to be that way, but everything in the book indicates that it should be in a significant number of cases.

[Draco18s]

However, it may then become connected to any number of image links or similar to share the footage, switch to be connected to a different system for security (such as a deck with a stronger firewall), and on, and on. I can't really think of anything that is ONLY a point to point connection at design phase.

And what purpose does it serve? Why? Why was it designed that way? There's literally no god damn reason why wired reflexes and reaction enhancers need to open up to the world at large just to bloody talk to each other.

Not to mention that that "connected to a comlink for security" even makes any sense. None. Zip. Zero. Nada.

Why?

1) Because the device doesn't need the internet
2) If it does, it doesn't need a wireless connection
3) Even if it does, being 'behind' a comlink actually does Jack and Shit to protect it. Hackers can't still attack it directly through other means.

[Epicedion]

So is every topic from now on just going to turn into bitching about wireless? Can you guys just make a thread for it, or some sequestered part of the forum?

[Medicineman]

So is every topic from now on just going to turn into bitching about wireless? Can you guys just make a thread for it, or some sequestered part of the forum?

if You've got a thorn in your Paw it hurts as long as it stays in the Paw
and only the Devs can remove the thorn officially
(At my table I will be playing without any thorns (IMG:style_emoticons/default/wink.gif) )

He who won't dance with a thorn in his Paw
Medicineman

[Epicedion]

if You've got a thorn in your Paw it hurts as long as it stays in the Paw
and only the Devs can remove the thorn officially
(At my table I will be playing without any thorns (IMG:style_emoticons/default/wink.gif) )

He who won't dance with a thorn in his Paw
Medicineman

That's great, but since every thread around here seems to turn into a giant clusterfuck of complaining about one thing it's turning what could be a place for useful discussion into you same eight people saying the same thing over and over again. It's getting old.

[Medicineman]

It's getting old

There's so many weird WiFi Boni , its never going to get old (IMG:style_emoticons/default/grinbig.gif)
and I really restrain myself to not beat a Dead Horse, often its someone new who discovers the weirdness
and than the thread derails.
Best example is this thread : only at the last page did I contribute by explaining why some of us are so angry. And I even added something positive to the WiFi

If You want to I could open a completely different Can of Worms
(Naaaah , I won't (IMG:style_emoticons/default/biggrin.gif) ,relax )

with a dance on Cans
Medicineman

[Tymeaus Jalynsfe...]

Well there's clearly as 3rd option which is that the system is completely playable, best of the lot so far, and is played by many.

Oh, so you are talking about SR4A, then. Well, I can get on board with that philosophy. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)

[Werewindlefr]

That's great, but since every thread around here seems to turn into a giant clusterfuck of complaining about one thing it's turning what could be a place for useful discussion into you same eight people saying the same thing over and over again. It's getting old.

Yes, but so is adding the same sort of broken and nonsensical mechanics rulebook after rulebook. The reason why it was brought back to the table in *this* thread is that we're discussing a new book, with new and original flavors of silly rules.

[Jaid]

However, in SR, we have a system designed to allow any given device to communicate seamlessly with an indeterminate number of devices - a firearm, for example, might minimally be connected to a smartgun system, a system offering DNI control, and a commlink for security. However, it may then become connected to any number of image links or similar to share the footage, switch to be connected to a different system for security (such as a deck with a stronger firewall), and on, and on. I can't really think of anything that is ONLY a point to point connection at design phase.

no, we have a system that is designed to force it to communicate seamlessly with an indeterminate number of devices no matter how stupid it would be to design something like that.

a firearm, being a device which is designed to kill people, should not be designed to communicate with an indeterminate number of devices. at *most* it should be designed to broadcast what it's camera is viewing, without being able to receive any signals from the internet whatsoever. hooking the trigger up to the internet is insane. it is hard to imagine a situation where that could go well, and very very easy to imagine situations where it could go disastrously wrong. i can somewhat understand making it wirelessly accessible, with a very short range (like the 3 meters possible in 4th edition), but putting it on the internet? that is insane.

i can even to some extent understand making it wirelessly communicate at longer ranges in certain situations... for example, when it's hooked up to a remotely controlled drone. that makes sense, because you don't really have a more secure option. it doesn't make sense when you have a person holding it in their hand who you are paying to pull the trigger. and even for a drone, it doesn't make sense to hook it up to the internet instead of requiring at least mutual signal range, unless you are actually controlling it from the other side of the world rather than having someone local control it for some unfathomable reason.

my fridge is on the internet? sure, that makes loads of sense. now i can tell my fridge what i want to keep in stock, and it can automatically order it from a delivery service, and my fridge is likely not designed to kill people. in all likelihood, if someone hacks into my fridge, the worst thing that can happen is my food will go rotten and stink up my house/apartment/whatever, and frankly the people with the skills to do that most likely don't care enough to bother anyways.

but all it takes is one hacker with an axe to grind, and suddenly if a person they hates owns cyberware, they can cripple or seriously injure or even kill that person. and we're talking about a setting where there is a small chance that *anyone* could spontaneously and largely without any means of detecting that it has happened develop the ability to hack things.

[Sendaz]

If You want to I could open a completely different Can of Worms
(Naaaah , I won't (IMG:style_emoticons/default/biggrin.gif) ,relax )

Can of Worms
Wireless Bonus: opens itself. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/biggrin.gif)

With a Pandora's Dance

Sendaz

[binarywraith]

no, we have a system that is designed to force it to communicate seamlessly with an indeterminate number of devices no matter how stupid it would be to design something like that.

a firearm, being a device which is designed to kill people, should not be designed to communicate with an indeterminate number of devices. at *most* it should be designed to broadcast what it's camera is viewing, without being able to receive any signals from the internet whatsoever. hooking the trigger up to the internet is insane. it is hard to imagine a situation where that could go well, and very very easy to imagine situations where it could go disastrously wrong. i can somewhat understand making it wirelessly accessible, with a very short range (like the 3 meters possible in 4th edition), but putting it on the internet? that is insane.

i can even to some extent understand making it wirelessly communicate at longer ranges in certain situations... for example, when it's hooked up to a remotely controlled drone. that makes sense, because you don't really have a more secure option. it doesn't make sense when you have a person holding it in their hand who you are paying to pull the trigger. and even for a drone, it doesn't make sense to hook it up to the internet instead of requiring at least mutual signal range, unless you are actually controlling it from the other side of the world rather than having someone local control it for some unfathomable reason.

my fridge is on the internet? sure, that makes loads of sense. now i can tell my fridge what i want to keep in stock, and it can automatically order it from a delivery service, and my fridge is likely not designed to kill people. in all likelihood, if someone hacks into my fridge, the worst thing that can happen is my food will go rotten and stink up my house/apartment/whatever, and frankly the people with the skills to do that most likely don't care enough to bother anyways.

but all it takes is one hacker with an axe to grind, and suddenly if a person they hates owns cyberware, they can cripple or seriously injure or even kill that person. and we're talking about a setting where there is a small chance that *anyone* could spontaneously and largely without any means of detecting that it has happened develop the ability to hack things.

From the fluff side, it's almost like literally everyone involved in-universe has forgotten why deckers have been such a security problem since the Echo Mirage days.

Or the results of both Crashes. Dear God, Crash 3.0 is going to be hilarious, as it gets to start bricking people and not just servers. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/rotfl.gif)