So yeah, they're doing the whole Preview thing again leading up to Run and Gun's release.

Preview #1 here.

Is specifically an excerpt from the Armor chapter. And yay for confirmation that it's going to be in full color!

*ducks down from inevitable shit storm*

Why?

FFBA still pretty, it's just regular armor now so just doesn't stack like the old days.

Was wondering if they were gonna somehow stuff it into the '+' category but so many people had such a love/hate relationship with FFBA, probably better they let it go this way.

I'm guessing there was supposed to be a "not" in that sentence.

Otherwise the mohawk/mirrorshades debate has been decided once and for all.

Oh yay wireless bonuses on clothing. Also 23 hardened armour seems pretty damn good.

Considering DS's propensity to find the most minor of things to complain about things and to somehow turn it around to how Shadowrun has been ruined forever, I think my wariness is warranted.

...and yeah, the +1 to Social Skills as a wireless bonus is pretty weird even for the other Wireless Bonuses.

On the other hand, yay for the return of extensive Shadowtalk.

Oh, and Plan 9 is back...ish. And apparently, despite being infected by the Sybil virus, JackPoint is totally ok with him still posting...to the point that it's even acknowledged in the ST. Right...

The difference between 'Jack and Plan 9 (or Riser) in that regard: FastJack could hurt Jackpoint seriously, necessitating his choice to bow out and for the system to be rebuilt. Others, however, don't pose the same threat to the group and are easier to monitor if they're not cut out.

So here is a question.

CUSTOM FIT (STACK)
This characteristic employs all the Custom Fit rules, but in
addition these items can stack with the clothing they are Custom
Fit to be worn over (meaning Custom Fit clothing from the same
maker). The character has to select a specific set of Armored
Clothing to have the piece Custom Fit over. The Custom Fit
combination then allows the character to use either the base
armor or add on the stack bonus for that set of gear.

Ok, so pretty simple - if I have a Mortimer of London Greatcoat Coat (which is a little redundant, but no big deal), and I have that custom fit to me, and to fit over my Mortimer of London Berwick Suit, then my armor rating is 9 for the suit +3 for Greatcoat coat. (obviously I am currently employed as Mr. Manager Manager, for those Arrested Development fans out there). At any rate, as stated in the rule, item that has the Custom Fit (Stack) ability (the Greatcoat) is designed to be worn OVER Custom Fit clothing from the same maker (the Berwick Suit).

Now - Second Skin. It ALSO has the Custom Fit (Stack) ability.

Except - what the heck is this meant to be worn over? It is skin tight, right?

Orthoskin.

Aye, I can see that.

I did mean the Why in a more 'Moi? ' way, but forgot to include the smirky smiley. *sigh* too tired last night.


Now watch and the errata changes the FFBA to Custom Fit (Stack) just to yank the chain.

Yeah they discuss this in Storm Front, Plan 9 is an unusual case of the infection and as such so as to not tip their hand so much they are allowing P9 to still roam about.

I suspect in the long run, all of Plan 9 various psychosis may well turn the tables on the Sybil (In Russia P9 Infects YOU!) or at least some sort of hybridization that neither side can expect.

Yes he/she is crazy, but they are our kind of crazy sort of thing....hell may even serve as a bridge between the two sides, the middle-entity so to speak.

double post

Why? :-/

SYL

One of the most annoying things about the Wireless bonuses in SR5 is that they don't get the tad of explanation/justification that might make half of them more palatable, and instead we're left trying to guess why the internet is "magically" providing bonus X.

So here are my guesses:


Easiest to explain as Augmented Reality overlays that make the clothing look better, or at least more appropriate for he second one. AR overlays will only work if you broadcast them, so they actually make a nice Wireless Bonus, although if that is explanation, they would need to be viewed by someone with an Imagelink to get the bonus.


It's been established that the Matrix of 2075 includes a bit of wireless power technology, which is a science fiction extrapolation of existing technologies. I guess this clothing uses that wireless power for various forms of lighting with whatever has replaced LEDs in 2075. Why it can't just use battery power? Fashion? I don't know. This one is silly to me too.


I find this one a bit tough to justify too. Built in GPS functions would be helpful in the wilderness, but wouldn't be limited to just a single environment. I guess wireless powered heating or cooling elements? Again, why not just battery power, especially for a wilderness item that may frequently be in Static zones that will prevent it from getting connected to the matrix?


Moving on, some interesting bits from the book that caught my attention:

Sleeping Tiger is an Armor 13 suit available at character creation that is 1 better than a Chameleon Suit at hiding... and is almost x10 the price. I'm guessing infiltration expert characters may be happy to have this option, despite the price tag.

Executive Suite is Armor 12 buisnessware that's only twice as expensive as the Armor Jacket and enhances social limits. Faces and any character that wears a suit instead of an armor jacket for style reasons should be happy to see this. I have a "professional" Decker that will be happy to have a better option than Actioneer Business Clothes for only slightly more.

Big Game Hunter is Armor 14 available at character creation for $5,000, although it makes you look like a hick in hunting camo. I'm guessing if "Urban" is a legal camo option, it might still work for a lot of Shadowrunners.

Second Skin may be intended to stack with any other armor, providing a +2, but it's also now Availability 14, and $12,000.... and of course the Custom Fit (Stack) rules don't exactly back that anyway.

For style reasons I'm tempted to take an Aces High coat the armor for my T-Bird Rigger character, but they are more expensive and less protective than an armor coat, and their special features aren't very useful for a rigger. I might sill do so anyways if I can find the cash for it in the build.

Just playing devils advocate here, have some issues with the wireless rules and am working on some house rules for my upcoming campaign

Wireless Bonus: Increase Social Limit by 2
-The outfit is broadcasting it brand name and being certified by the manufacturers server indicating its real and not a knock off, also it's adding exclusive Versace themed accents to your augmented reality profile.

Wireless Bonus: +1 dice pool bonus to Survival Tests (when in terrain addressed with Custom Protection)
-it downloads real time weather info and exclusive subscriber only Bear Grylls™ survival tips.

Wireless Bonus: Illuminating
-The lights are powered by the same wireless inductive power charging technology that stun batons have, so a battery pack won't ruin the fine tailored lines of the gown.

Wireless Bonus: +1 dice pool bonus to Social Tests when worn within the appropriate corp.
-Same as the other social limit boosts but with corp loyalty themes instead of high fashion .

*points up*
This, totally this. It makes the wireless bits make sense.

Oops, they did it again...

I would rather have the Les Stroud version... He gives better survival tips and does not have to drink his own urine every episode...

I dont need wireless data for AR, since the data is stored on my 800 000¥ Cyberdeck. And the limits are increased, even if i am talking about the matrix cell phone with an matrix icon. And they are increased even when the other have no wireless and no AR.



So I would get the bonus with every form of GPS enhancement, survival kit, heat generator? Ah, sorry, I don´t, because I am not wireless.

SYL

So why wireless (I cant send it via holograms to the people around me?) and why does it increase my limit when I am talking to another matrix icon on the other side of the globe? Or do you really want to play the devils advocate and say, that for every cloth the people see they contact the server of the manufacturer?



Ah, yes, because it is not possible with any other piece of equipment.



This means I would get the same bonus if I use a .. battery? Ah, no I won´t

SYL

*cough* need SpiderWire™ *cough*

So either this has also been written by Devon Oraz, or CGL just have no idea what to do with WiFi Boni that isn't totally ridiculous.

Going down the rabbit hole a bit more,

1. because it proves its the real deal. In a world with nanofabrication knock offs must be really close to the real deal and people who are really in to wearing high end fashion would want a way to tell the world how much they spent (in classy low key way). As for talking on the matrix the rules state you only get the limit boost if people can see the outfit.

2. There probably should be a more expensive version of the survival kit that has the same wireless bonus, I would't be surprised to see that in the full book.

3. Yup, you can get the same bonus by using a battery, or a flashlight or a candle, all it does it produce light.

Careful, someone might brick your suit and cause it to explode doing 16P damage in a twelve block radius.

Shh.... I likes the pretty fireworks

Gone.



No, you can´t. There are only rules for wireless. Because, if you don´t need a wireless connection for making light then you need no wirelss bonuses for other items as well (because you have just proven that you can replace the wireless system by something as easy as a battery) - for smartlink, medkits, stealth suites, online silencers for example. The entire "choices" system would fall apart. Because then any sane men would argue with "I have my own weather sensor, or my own medical data on my link, or my own sensors to check out the area" - the usual reasons given by the devs why wireless bonuses are so hot.

SYL

The "choices system" (if we can dignify something so moronic by calling it a system) falls apart anyway under the weight of its own idiocy. As many, many people have demonstrated, most if not all of the wireless bonuses vanish in a puff of logic the moment you think critically about them. While "It breaks the system" is a good argument in some cases, this is not one of those cases.

And without nanofabrication we can't have knock off clothing? Knock of clothing is a big industry in even the modern world, and it's all legal because there aren't any intellectual protection laws that cover clothing. It's why so many clothing styles include logos, because those you can trademark.

Honestly, I think the Social Limit bonuses on clothing work well (one of the few bonuses that do) because clothing in the 6th world has had Augmented Reality overlays since 4th edition. Animated graphics, subtle visual enhancements, etc. Try transmitting AR without a matrix connection. There were expensive holo-ware clothes in 4th edition, but AR details that could be transmitted from something like an RFID tag are cheap and easy by comparison.

I personally like the idea of wifi bonuses on gear, but it feels poorly executed, which is sadly a vibe I get from a lot of 5th ed SR. Most of the wifi bonuses are poorly explained, if at all, and at least half of them seem silly or immersion breaking if you think about them too long. They seem to be adding them to all sorts of gear that don't really need them. If the idea was to make a reason to have gear online so it could be vulnerable to hacking, then why do we need to add wireless functions to gear that weren't already electronics? Oh no, they bricked my rain coat isn't the same as a guns or glasses.

EDITED X2: Clarified because I hit post too soon, then added a tad more.

Thats quite easy: its called bluethooth/NFC and similar other short range transmitting systems.

SYL

It does point out that the Social limit bonus only applies when the Target can see clearly the Suit the bonus is coming from, not just an Armante cuff sticking out of a battered armoured long coat sleeve. Also the Social limit bonuses are not WiFi but come just from wearing the suit, because people do (this is a fact most of you are already aware of) react differently to the way people are dressed.

The Social WiFi bonus is a little more weird but any explanation of AR overlay (which you have to be Matrix connected to do, which makes sense to me) etc. It may sound weird to us because we live in a world where such things are still only ideas but in a world where AR is a fairly constant day to day interface with the world around you via glasses, contacts and so forth I can totally see an AR broadcast overlay, designer tags and so forth being something that helps make the Cool Kids Cool.

Which are:
A) Either outdated or absorbed into Matrix network protocols in Shadowrun 2075. The Matrix, for ease of play, seems to be a unified set of networking protocols with mesh-network capabilities. Got a wireless connection of any kind? Cool, you're basically online because the 2075 version of bluetooth on your shirt can talk to the short range systems in your commlink, gun, toaster, fridge, car, etc and that thing is on wifi/cell/sat/whatever.
B) Short range wireless is still an avenue for being hacked, which is my point: AR projections are actually a good thing to model with a Wireless bonuses... a hell of a lot better than having a Microphone in a silencer that somehow detects people realizing there has been gunfire, but only when online. Now that is a stupid wireless bonus.


So they are finally releasing the gear book for 5th edition, and people are still upset about the wireless bonuses (which are largely fairly stupid.) I'd love to see some comments that go beyond "oh great more bad wireless bonuses."

Armor/Clothing
In the core 5th edition book the armor rules are no longer matched so heavily to attributes, and as a result there aren't a lot of good reasons to buy armor for your shadowruner that isn't an Armor jacket. Run & Gun adds a lot more armor options, but only a few are both better than an armor jacket and available to starting players. Most of the book is high or retro fashion types that I don't see a lot of use for in game, and could have been handled with "armored clothing." There are pages of clothing details for fashions I don't think add much to the game, and that most Shadowrunners won't be wearing. Even the things which are stylistically something a shadowrunner might wear tend to be like having several kinds of what are effectively armored jackets, but more expensive and less effective, like the entire Ace's High line. In other cases we get something like the Executive Suite, which is basically going to replace the Actioneer, for only about $500 more.

The Big Game Hunter coat is actually a bit interesting. It's more armor than an armor jacket, but is distinctly not something you'd seen worn in the streets of seattle and will stand out a bit. It's also expensive enough that some people might legitimately choose the Armor Jacket instead. Similarly the Sleeping Tiger is better than a Chameleon Suit, but so much more expensive that buying it may not be something all Infiltration Experts decide to do. These are choices I like in the book.

And, honestly I was hoping that we'd get more armor add-ons (the kind limited by Strength, like shields and helmets in the core book) and maybe we will, but just not in the preview?

That'd be nice but tbh I'd rather just stop hearing it altogether.

The best approach to wireless is to either ignore it by giving all your items the wireless bonuses risk free or to just get over it and accept that the game is set in the future and so everything can't be explained with current knowledge.

Yup pretty much...lol

I'm curious where you're getting the impression that FFBA doesn't stack from, as we don't have any rules for or against it in there. The stat block doesn't have it listed as a Custom Fit(Stack) option, but as the rules say :



I mean, I know the charts and the text blatantly contradicting each other is practically traditional for SR5 by now, but really? Not even going into how dumb making the modifier for armor stacking nearly identical to an already used armor modifier instead of just calling it 'Stacking' or whatever to keep the two from being easily confused.

So many dumb decisions, so little time to actually proofread, spellcheck, or consider game design.



It's never been a question of current knowledge, but rather one of internally consistent logic that makes the wireless bonuses idiotic.

My problem with gear in SR is that the descriptions are written in a conversational tone instead of technically, so something like "does not change the protection much" is vague - does it affect your rating or not? Well, the table would say no and logic would also say no, so why bother saying anything about it? Give the stats and modifiers, throw in a fluff piece about how comfortable it is or whatever and move on.

Don't even get me started on the "internal" versus "integral" crap that a lot of the guns deal with.

I think that it is clear that it doesn't stack, as it does not say "Custom Fit(Stack)" and does not have a "+" armor rating.

1 point = "much."

You guys have worked yourselves up over SR5 so much that it's affecting your reading comprehension.

I am not sure how you can extrapolate that the FFBA would be still be stacking like the old days when:
A) it does not list the new attribute of Custom (stacking) which the preview introduced into play and is now included for armors that do stack.
B) by it's own admission it does not change your protection much. 4 pts of added armor (half the rating of the added armor) would constitute a bit more than 'not much' by most folk's definitions, if the stacking rules were still in play, which under current SR5 it does not.
.

But as I also said in my original post, I would not be surprised if they come back and errata to include the Custom (Stack) in it's description.
However if it does, do not expect the + stacking bonus to be a full 8.
If it is anything like how the great coats and other bits seen in the preview work, FFBA would probably end up as armor rating: 8 / +2 (or +3 at most), which would not be unreasonable.

So now we potentially have to wait for errata for a sourcebook not even released yet.

I need a drink.

It is also possible that they do not intend for it to stack - I think it was always an issue with FFBA that it was effectively an automatic item that you picked whether in 3e or 4e, because it was SO useful.

Perhaps they are changing it so that it does what I think the original intent was, which was to allow wear armor without anyone knowing you were wearing it, as opposed to what it was used for, which was just extra armor, worn almost regardless of other circumstances.

I'm pretty much of that opinion. With that said, they should probably errata the armor in the BBB with Concealment modifiers consistent with FFBA (Vest -4 Conceal, Clothes -2 Conceal, etc)

It is quite possible, but it is 50/50 right now to try and guess which way they want to go.

Also small edit, I was recalling a different ruling for FFBA under the old ways and it should have said the full 8 points, which makes the 'much' just that more 'much'

*pours two fingers of bourbon into a glass and sips while he sits back to contemplate the preview*

best keep the bottle close for this one....

"SR4 did it X way, SR5 doesn't do it X way, but one way of reading a single line in the fluff description doesn't explicitly and harshly in all caps disallow for X way so it's 50/50 what they mean."

Mmhmm.

It's not even the reading of the fluff that implies that X is still the way, Binary was going more on the lack of fluff saying it wasn't but that shouldn't fly in any case because new edition=new rules but that is another point entirely.

The fluff says it wont change your protection much, which we pointed out in a previous post that FFBA lacked the stacking option and any sort of stacking by FFBA would constitute 'much' and even you pointed out 1 point could be called much, so we both seem to be of a mind that it should not be stacking as written.

The 50/50 remark is more about we do not know what the devs are actually doing with this.

Is the preview actually the way they want FFBA to play or will there be errata to have FFBA be a + type?

Who can say.

I kind of wish they had more development blogs along the way, so we can see what they are trying to aim for when they do these things.

But I suppose that would spin off their own circles of doom and gloom as well by someone.

I don't know - I think in this particular case (and don't get me wrong, SR5 has some issues) - I think a little bit more is being made of it than should be. It is a new edition, there are new rules, and for me personally (YMMV) if the item doesn't have EITHER the "Custom Stack" OR a "+" rating, then I'm not going to assume that somehow they forgot to put in BOTH of those things , because in a previous edition it did stack. Especially when the fluff says "Doesn't change your protection much...primary purpose is concealment" - which really supports the fact that it doesn't stack.

Again, it's not exactly clear writing if they bring up a point that otherwise would need no comment at all.

It's hard to accept things at face value so far in SR5 as well.

We come back to the problem of why you would even use FFBA in the first place since it doesn't stack and has less armor value than the Armor Vest, which by fluff isn't detectable either so the conceal modifier doesn't really mean anything.

At the moment, the primary reason to stack armors on a character is for the capacity. Your FFBA is a base layer, which makes it a good one for non-conductivity. Outer layers, like coats, are where you put protection from fire or chemicals.

That said, I really expected FFBA to be an armor add-on object like a helmet or shield: something that combines with anything but is limited by character Strength. I suspect if the Piecemeal armor bits are still around, that's what they will be.

Because armor can be seen and detected - just because there is no modifier listed on page 420 of the main SR5 rules doesn't mean that all armor is invisible.

If you were playing a game before Run and Gun came out, what would you do if someone was wearing armor, and someone else wanted to see if they were wearing armor? There would be a Perception check to spot it.

Now, since there is no Concealability modifier on page 420, you have to assume that either:

a) All armor has no modifier (the same as a Heavy Pistol, for instance)
b) They should have modifiers, and they haven't included them yet.

If you want my guess - and we'll have to wait and see if I'm right, then Run and Gun will have an expanded table showing what the modifiers for armor are - and FFBA has a -6 modifier.

Even if I'm wrong, and they don't further flesh out that chart, it means that when someone is trying to spot whether or not a target is wearing armor, and the target is wearing FFBA, the spotter has a -6 dice pool modifier.

Currently, it is up to your GM what kind of modifier an Armor Vest has to be spotted - but I'm guessing it is going to be less than -6.

I doubt they are going to go back and adjust all the armors in the main book so as it stands Armor Vest is undetectable. Even the fluff says it's not obtrusive or visible, so unless you have NPCs lifting up your character's shirt (in which case they would also see the FFBA) there's no difference.

They don't have to go back and adjust anything. The table on page 420 is not all-inclusive. It has a generic sampling of equipment. All they have to do is have another chart in the Run and Gun book that includes concealability modifiers for categories of armor (the same way that the chart on page 420 lists categories of guns, and doesn't list each and every individual weapon).

In the meantime, the idea that because the fluff text on an Armor Vest says it is designed to be "worn without displaying any bulk" means it is invisible is silly.

Armor can be spotted. There has to be a Perception test to do this. There has to be a modifier for that test. Currently, there are none in the main book - so either that means the modifier is zero, or it means the GM has to determine one. Just because there is no modifier there, it doesn't mean fluff text is a substitute. Again, it means that you should probably assign an Armor Vest a better concealability modifier than, say, an armor jacket - it doesn't make it invisible.

Given that high quality business suites and regular streetwear (lined coats, armoured clothing) all have armour and significant levels of it, not to mention style wear like Mortimer of london, why does anyone give a shit whether you're wearing anything short of milspec armour anyway?

Yes you might get same strange looks walking into stuffer shack wearing an armoured jacket, but not because it is armour, but rather it simply looks out of place. Is any corporation or government office going to ask someone wearing a line of armoured suit that they have to take it off when the very best brands sport armour and everybody knows it?

I don't really see why you need rules for this when in the campaign you're probably going to draw more attention for NOT wearing armour because it's a wacky thing to do.

SR5 citation please?