And that is exactly what I do...

These are the rules, they are stupid, so I will never run with Wireless active. Done.
Not like you need an Active Wireless anyways (especially Cyberware). *shrug*

Would have been nice, though, to have wireless bonuses that actually made sense, and were actually useful, instead of the mess we ended up with.

It's actually not relevant.

The rules state that "the device stops working." And in the case of something that replaces your god damn spine I'm pretty sure "stops working" renders you paralyzed just as a gun that "stops working" will no longer fling lead downrange.

Yeah, but your comment is still based on the fluff which as I said is nonsense. By that same fluff description the reaction enhancers replace chunks of bone with other material, presumably lead or something. How does a chunk of lead stop working? It has no moving parts. How could it possibly gain any bonus from being wireless? Note I'm not defending the book description. It's clearly silly. I just think your rage at it is also somewhat silly.

It went off-topic over the fluff descriptions of the Armor Vest & Armor Clothing. Run & Gun introduced the explicit mechanic of Form Fitting Body Armor having a concealability modifier of -6 while no other armor in the R&G Preview or in the BBB (even those being described as nearly impossible to detect as armor) had an explicit concealability modifier.

Then for some reason someone brought up the bricking text as an example of why fluff can/could be perilous to follow.

Then it went to shit.

Really, the issue is that the writer, by his own admission, chose rule of cool (his interpretation, not mine) over common sense for wireless bonuses. And this results in some pretty nonsensical bonuses. Not even sure why he considered some of those things cool, since most of his choices seem pretty lame to me. Did not help that he was working from a different understanding than the book had on what Matrix Access meant. *shrug*

Par for the Course, yes?

The odds that a thread derails approaches 1 as the thread grows longer.

I'm fairly certain that the odds of a post derailing are 1 as soon as the parent is posted.

The issue is the particular bonuses, really, not wireless itself. With bonuses that were better, more interesting, and better supported by/supporting of aspects of the setting the system would be a lot better accepted. The main problem is the bonuses restoring old mechanical function.

it isn't a foundational mechanic . if you removed all mentions of wireless bonuses, we wouldn't even notice it was gone, except to notice that various things lack the functionality they should have.

by definition, if it is foundational, other things must be built on it. and yet, if i remove wireless bonuses from the game entirely, nothing else suffers. it all works just fine.

Actually not really. It's dumb crap like "+2 social dice."

How the hell does this even work?

The wired reflexes one is just because it's a matter of "what the f*k does it even need the internet for?" It's not so much "oh, it used to work without the internet" but rather "needing the internet makes no frakking sense."

Eh. There's ways to make that work - especially when the basic bonus is already about high fashion; AR style is a thing in Shadowrun, after all.

And the WR/RE thing could be able needing extra data to make adcvance predictions to coordinate the responses of both pieces of 'ware.

"Fail spectacularly" does not HAVE to mean "catches on fire".

I mean it CAN, it's one of the listed examples, but a GM who actually doing that particular example is pretty much just being a dick.

For cyberware, I can think of number of ways they might fail spectacularly that do NOT involve fatal results for the user. Seizures, electronic hallucinations and visual glitches, 80s death metal suddenly blaring in your auditory centers, etc.

I mean, I detest the new wireless bonus rules. I hates them with the fury of a white hot sun. But there's SO many other reasons and arguments on why they are, as executed, stupid and nonsensical. Can we stop harping on the one argument that requires rabid hyperbole to work?



-k

I disagree though in that the +social limit is too broad. Maybe if it was +1 Social limit in High Society, or more specific which social tests it can effect, but in some parts of town, looking too upscale can actually be unhealthy unless you are going to say that fancy outfit grunges itself up a bit, AR wise or physically.

Hmmm.... GangerWear™ with resealable cuts and rips, to reveal a new tat or cover old ones, maybe even allowing from dramatic ripping for macho events, sporting the gangs floating AR logo to match....

And you can forgive TJ for bringing the ON FIRE bit up again and again as he is just setting the stage for our summer rollout of 'CyberFire™' implanted mini-extinquishers.

That's right, now even if you do suffer an unfortunate hack and experience an internal meltdown, CyberFire™ responds quickly to extinquish the flames with a soothing non-conductive firefighting gel to the traumatized region.

We will also be offering 'Burn Bullets, Not Barrels™' attachable extinquishers for a wide range of firearms while the 'Dressed to Grill™' line for armors will be expected sometime next year.

Actually, a GM having a device fail in the manner described in the rules is running the system as written and intended by the writers. We can argue all day over just how dumb their intent was, but what they published is right there on the page.

The bricking results that keep getting quoted are talking about general devices, not specifically cyberware.

They are also presented as examples of spectacular failures, not a restrictive list. GMs are free to come up with their own stuff.

And frankly, a GM who cannot come up with alternative failure results tailored to the situation is exhibiting a distinct lack of imagination.

As I said, there's tons of reasons why the wireless rules suck. Why continue to keep harping on one of the weaker reasons?


-k

Indeed. Why anyone reads fluff and derives mechanics from it is mind boggling. It stops working, you lose your bonuses which is mechanically what the cyberware does. And considering that it ADDS to your initiative rather than replacing it, this implies that there is something to add to does it not?

The same players will then have no problem with other issues that are equally baffling like Standard ware removing more flesh/essence that deltaware but you can still upgrade to deltaware after installing the cheap shit and removing it again! "What happened to the extra stuff that was removed? Does it just grow back?

Who cares? My character just got cooler! Where's some more awesome stuff to do?

By your logic I can look at the picture of the combat mage on page 116 and conclude that humans can have horns and pronounced Canines without any qualities or spells that can achieve this? Because it's in the book? And everything within the book is a rule?

And is a very good point.

Like for myself I treat a crashed gun in the simplest manner, the safety is engaged if the system crashes or loses power and remains so until you reboot or get power back to the onboard, aka it's temporarily a paperweight.

Throwbacks don't have this issue as the safety is still just a manual switch, where as the more modern toys have this handled electronically so that you can normally turn on or off your safety with a command.
You can even handwave an explantion for why it engages in a crash as saying the safety default condition is ON, but the system uses some internal mechanism to hold it in OFF when in use, but any subverting the system slaps it back to ON as a safety for your.. safety.

Lots of different things we can do, though the fire thing does look cool.



To be fair that photo was taken on a Monday before he had gotten his morning soykaf, so I can relate.

How do you know the mage has not used a spell to achieve that look?
As for me, SURE, as a Human, take all the horns and canines you like, they just don't give you anything. *shrug*

Probably because his spell list is visible to all and does not contain anything that could?



But wait there's more. p51 describes horns in a fluff kind of way:



Hmmm, so there's an implication that horns are used for destruction. If you look at other creatures that have horns and cause destruction they tend to have the 'Natural Weapons' power so.......... holy crap new rule: Trolls have the 'Natural Weapon' power! .................... oh and since humans can have horns because the picture on p116 says (because a picture is worth 1000 words) then humans have that power as well! God bless rules/fluff!

Don't you just despise defending something you hate because the arguments used are just that bad?

You have a fair point, but if there's an electrochromic or holowear aspect that might help; clothing readjusted on demand. It also helps with what happens when it gets bricked.

On the subject of the Wireless (and even nonWireless, surprising no one has mentioned that) +Social thing. It does mention that it only applies if the clothing is full visible and I believe it also implies that it's the GMs call on if it's applicable in a situation, just as it directly does later with concealability with Assualt Cannons and Assless chaps. Dumb as some of the stuff out there with Wireless is a huge amount if the argument going on is becoming circular and mostly lurking in the realms of petty rules lawyering ad RollPlaying.

If everyone who keeps carting out the bricking description, the armoured vest description and things that we've seen mention hundreds of times over dozens of threads now only ever plays their games to 100% exactly as the books are written then I fear you've kind of missed the point. RPGs have a Games Master for that reason, to interpret case by case things. Once upon a time they did this all the time and no-one batted an eyelid because an RPG was not a board game or a table top Wargame, if people thought a rule worked better a differant way, they tweaked it. Some people didn't like that and thought the book was gospel thus the Ruleslawyer was born and heavily disliked any GM guides that suggested otherwise. Later this would be put into the corebooks and some would call it lazy system design. It's not, it was just clarifying you can take what's there and change it if you like because the rules are a toolkit. People have modified every edition of Shadowrun in some way that makes better sense to them, this edition that's mostly wireless stuff for a lot of people, previously it's been matrix, magic, astral, Adepts, initiative, rigging etc.

Now, I agree, fluff should match to rules where possible and in SR it used to do that mostly pretty well a lot of the time, plus the fluff and the rules should follow some internally consistent logic, else the suspension of disbelief fails those of us who know the setting (brand new folks will be non the wiser in many cases). So it's a disappointment when that fails to happen. However there's not alt in SR5 where that mismatch happens and nothing where a little bit of FM common sense and a 2 minute chat with the group doesn't fix. Some of the other stuff will probabley be given better systems in their respective books, or expanded information (Grids, Hosts, Alchemy, initiation, Submersion, Astral planes stuff, Artificing, martial arts and Rigging) just like every other edition has done, so I can live with the basic Ruleset provided.

If I come across any situations the rules don't 100% cover or seems counter intuitive, then I'll do what I've always done (and most other GMs have always done) and make a call that best fits the situation at hand (like successfully shooting someone in the unarmoured face I'm totally allowing for the bypass of armour). I've posted my Houserules and rule tweaks elsewhere. Took me a couple of hours to write them and my table enjoys the feel of what they knew with the way SR5 handles. There's others out there too, different take on things to me, but also look fun and playable. If you're having a hard time with the book but don't want to do your wn tweaking, I suggest checking them out.

Obviously an Editing mistake.



Actually, the implication is that TROLLS are built for Destruction. The horns are just an accoutrement, So they can look good while doing it. "eek:

I got to admit, I don't mind bonuses for clothes. I hate wireless functionality but people react to and treat are treated differently based on their clothes. So bonuses to social skills makes sense. Yes, use GM discretion what works in most of the city might not help you much when talking to a ganger in the barrens.

While we understand your very valid point about fluff vs actual rules, this particular example is not as far a stretch as one might think.

I played under one GM who did pretty much that, saying a combination of their larger musulature, bone density and those calcium depositing did change their unarmed melee damage from S to P.

It didn't really upset the game balance that much as any other individual can install claws or bone lacing or muscle density for similar.

On the flipside, unlike the regular Joe above, he couldn't turn it off or rather had to focus on NOT doing damage. A human with bone lacing can still juggle eggs pretty well but unless the Troll specifically said he was trying to do S or to go gently with a similar task, things and/or people got broken.

Nothing like being in a hurry and ripping a doorknob off or tearing the whole door clean off its hinges. Or grabbing a ganger by the throat/head to have a 'chat' and popping his head off without meaning to...

Was it a freebie to the Troll, to a limited extent yes. Was there consequences? Sure, he was an oversize, overmuscled hulk in a tiny, fragile world and he could rarely forget it.

Course this was also the same GM who had all elves possess a Severe Allergy to Iron/Steel, copper based green blood along with 3 fingers and a thumb. (the latter of which isn't much of a hindrance as you still have the primary thumb, pointy finger and pinky plus a spare, but if needed to spot a Keeb, look at the hands as ears can get bobbed, but unless he is wearing gloves.....)
The allergy did require some working around, especially since it also meant no red meat generally, but given the prevalence of ceramic, plastic and other alloy alternatives for gear, it was workable, albeit with some forethought.

So sometimes fluff can be a fun kickoff point, but yes do not confuse it for canon.

Well, the same clothes can give widely different results depending on the people you face. The most fashionable suit from an Italian designer should give you a positive modifier for Etiquette roll in a boardroom or a cosy nightclub. But simply removing the modifier is probably not adequate if you wear it when you try to impersonate a political refugee at a military checkpoint. A modifier that depends on the exact model or brand should only be a fraction of the modifier for an appropriate or inappropriate type of clothes.

More power to that GM to do so. They just shouldn't come on the forums and claim (as I cynically did) that it's actually RaW.

Elves did used to have the whole Can't Eat Meat thing back in 1st/2nd.

With all the soy about these days, is that even an issue?

There was more soy I think back then. But you really didn't want to eat meat if you were a Salad.

I wonder why it got dumped. Dandelion eaters was the insult for a reason. Was some designer butt hurt that he liked his elfy welfy character but hated he had to eat his vegetables? I liked it it added some distinction to the metahumans instead of tall skinny human with pointed ears.

Immortal Elves, I'm sure.

I'm pretty sure that they're behind the wireless bonuses as well. And the dumb vehicle speed system. In fact, every problem Shadowrun has can be fairly attributed to the IEs.

And some may even say for problems even older.

Microtranceiver :
Wireless Bonus -- Worldwide Connection makes lots of sense to me (not that I would be using it on a Run) !


Because some of us are oldschool Roleplayers .
When our char falls 10 Meters (from the 3rd floor) he not only looses Hitpoints/physical Damage he may also strain his ankle or maybe even break his leg. Thats how Ingame reality interacts with our chars.
If something that is connected to my chars Brain or Spiral collumn and it starts to sparkle/ burn than there should be an interaction to my chars Body.
We're playing a Roleplaying game which is more than just a Boardgame (like D&D4th Ed) .In said Boardgame a burned and destroyed Datajack or wired reflexes cease to function without any connection/interaction to the char because its a Boardgame (and its not in the Rules). But SR is (or should be !!) more than just a Boardgame.This means that the Devs should take more care with crush and Fluff both !
Thats how I see it (and I guess some of the other posters too!) and it Ails me when the Devs produce a Rule that makes absolutely no sense ingame

@Picture of the Trollmage
the Trollmage ....is a Trollmage (in the German BBB that I consider an Erratta)

HokaHey
Medicineman

That's fine. Here's the part I have a problem with:

1) People interpret fluff to mean that bricked wired reflexes kills or at least paralyzes the victim.
2) They then draw the conclusion that this is very dangerous.
3) They note that to be susceptible to bricking that wireless needs to be on.
4) They then start to over-examine wireless and conclude that it is dumb (for whatever reason), mainly to justify their irrational fear of deckers and the fact that they need to go wireless to stack Wired reflexes and Reaction enhancers to receive the maximum bonus.

If they didn't conclude '1' from fluff then perhaps they wouldn't end up at '4'.

Here's another example of 2 separate conclusion that happen in isolation of each other:

OMG melee weapons do base strength+modifer damage.
ZOMG Trolls will do heaps of damage, ergo this was a bad design decision.

OMG combat axes have an accuracy of 4, therefore my troll has a low chance of ever hitting anyone with high reation + intuition
ergo limits are dumb.

If they stopped looking at this in isolation we'd see that the limit is not only reducing the desire to have a dice pool but also is a balancing feature that pits damage against accuracy. Yes the troll won't hit the broad side of a barn, but when he does the fraggin barn falls over! If you take away the limits then you WILL need to rebalance a lot of other aspects of the game.

That is no interpretation. A bricked device does not work anymore and never failes non-spectacular. Rulebook etc. So if you brick the wired reflexes you have a small camp fire in your spinal cord - with sparks book. The only interpretation would be how much damage you receive when you are set on fire internally. Or are these rules not convenient for you?

SYL

It is an interpretation, and one which chooses to pretend that the examples listed are comprehensive despite the verbiage making the opposite absolutely clear. The rules do not say all bricked devices ignite; combustion is one of uncountably many possibilities, and one which would be inappropriate to apply to 'ware - 'ware can fail spectacularly in some different way instead per the rules, and per the rules the GM is not limited to the listed examples in adjudicating those failures.

^^

Absolutely agree.

We have to decide whether:

a) The writers wrote a piece of fluff that should be interpreted that every time a piece of cyberware is bricked, it causes the immediate death of the character, or massive internal damage, with no mention of how this damage is to be calculated by the GM, no mention of whether or not it can be resisted, and if it could be resisted, how it would be. (Even if you were to think that bricking wired reflexes kills you, bricking a fingertip compartment would not - but how much damage do you take?)

OR

b) The writers wrote a piece of fluff that indicates that whatever is bricked ceases to function, and is obvious that it has failed. Perhaps the person with wired reflexes falls down, or moves jerkily for a few seconds. A bricked cyberarm would stop working, and hang limply at his side. A bricked fingertip compartment could open and close uncontrollably for a few seconds, and then remain open, or closed, or half open, or whatever is more inconvenient for the character.

For me - and for any games - I run, its B.

Do you really not understand the difference between rules and fluff? You basically defeated your own argument by stating that the fluff is the rule but then you have to make up the damage that people must certainly take. Sorry but no.

If it was meant to be a rule then there would be a sentence added to every bit of cyberware that states: 'When this is bricked it applies X damage to the cyberware's host.' It does not say this, all it says is that it stops working. Who cares whether is smokes or sparks according to the fluff. What damage do sparks do in the rules? What about smoke? That's right. None.

What wired reflexes do is ADD to your reaction and initiative dice. If the cyberware ceases to function that it is no longer adding that bonus right? I don't care if it replaces your spinal cord. Why does that even matter? Why don't we take some of the other fluff into account then:



So why can't the wired reflexes have some component that still transmits at normal neural speed when it loses power? I mean it would kind of suck if your cyberware was faulty and you were walking down the street and just died because you have no central nervous system. That seems kind of dumb to me. I'd think redundancy would be built into something so critical wouldn't you?

I have to agree with Rhat on this one. There isn't anything that says that the bricked item has to spontaneously ignite. In fact, most systems won't have even close to enough internal power to make the item burst into flame or explode. Of course, other options exist, especially with things connected to your spinal cord, and thus your brain, like paralysis, cardiac arrest, erectile dysfunction, stroke, loss of hearing, loss of sight, psychosis, incontinence, painful spasms in the limbs and musculature...wait, so how is this better again?

The main issue that we all seem to have isn't in the fact that we think that bricking is always a Metallica fireworks show, it's the fact that the potential for a Metallica fireworks show is even on the list of options. That someone can put the HAXORZ on systems that should be sealed from external signals because getting any sort of random signal through them is going to get people dead. As I said before, you're talking about a world where mages SHOOT FUCKING LIGHTNING BOLTS, let alone get close to various signal transmission systems, power lines, etc.

You get a couple of bricked soldiers in a warzone. Then the whole damn army stops all orders for the enhancement as they investigate the issue. Then word gets around that there is a way to brick that enhancement externally. Then the company has to go back and fix the issue free of charge. Then the company loses a ton of money. Then investors take their money and run. Then the company (or subsidiary) goes into the toilet. As they say in the DirecTV commercials, "Don't let a couple of soldiers get bricked in a warzone..."

Therefore there is a very strong impetus from the R&D, manufacturing, and sales perspective that YOUR SHIT DOESN'T GET FUCKING BRICKED THE FIRST GAWDAMN PLACE, especially in anything that might potentially get used in law enforcement and military applications because that shit drives sales like nothing else. Glock isn't one of the #1 handgun companies in the world because they make a good product. Glock is where they are because they make a good product and 70% of the police forces in the US issue Glock handguns as well as various high-speed, low-drag military units around the world.

Yes they would, because only step required to get there is
1. read the idiotic rules for wireless bonuses.

You forgot sonic diarrhea.

Sure, your spinal cord would still work. Except of course that the GM has to account for a camp fire with sparks *in your spinal cord*.



Because they are on fire.

Spectacularly.

SYL

Unfortunately SR5 decided otherwise. You know, online silencers, online air tanks, online stealth suits.

SYL

All of which are monumentally stupid...
I mean really... ONLINE STEALTH SUITS (so much for stealth)... totally moronic. *shakes head*

Because then what is the point of it being brickable? We've already established that it has no honest reason to have wireless access in the first place, being solely a synaptic/nervous/muscular system acceleration system.

If you can build a redundant system that isn't susceptible to outside interference, then what is the in-game logic for not having built the whole damn thing that way in the first place, to save the money of having to have a doubled system?

There is no in-game logic for that lack. Sadly, the Line Developer decided he wanted to force the issue, and so he did. As a result, we have what we have, which sucks... *shrug*