Clearly I am not, but if the implication I don't understand what the text states is something you require to argue your point, have at it, sir!


"Common features" but not the only ones. I don't see rules about how often "occasionally" occurs, can you provide a page citation?

The implications are quite obvious. In fact, they're stated clearly in the rules text:

Very, very simple.

Surely, but it does not just stop working. It stops working spectacularly. Smoking, strange noises, rebooting, fire, whatever.
Just my two on the matter.

I imagine having your light-up suit flash out your bank account and PIN and then shut down would be a considerable faux pas.

You cannot see form-sitting beneath other clothes (they are under the clothing after all), so the -6 penalty to notice makes sense there.
Or are you saying that the FFB armor wouldn't matter because the clothing has armor? If the latter, I agree, assuming they do not do something with it that will allow it to work (which looks like they are not, at least currently).

"Common" and "universal" are very different things. Failing spectacularly does not require those features.

Define any sort of failure, spectacular or otherwise, that would occur when your replacement spinal cord "stops working" that doesn't render the user paralyzed.

I'm saying hidden armor is not a benefit if people assume all clothing is armored because vashion island or whatever you are wearing, has an armored version of that. Basically a hold out being easy to conceal is not a perk if every guard, cop, door man etc looks at you and says even though I can't see it I assume you are armed because its easy to conceal guns. Therefore I will frisk you and make sure. Similarly if armor is a no no in room X it being hidden is meaningless if everyone assumes you are armored and take steps to confirm past a visual check. If wearing armor is something that would stand out in the first place which I don't think it is.

Um when what is failing is the part that enhances your reflexes past human and not the rest? It is something you can turn off and on after all, so I can easily see basic functions working but the enhanced part not working. Like my last car the fan worked but only the 1st two speeds of it did, speed 3 and 4 just blew as fast as 2.

You mean the whole "replaces your spinal cord with superconducting materials that transmit signals faster" stops "transmitting signals faster" and just "transmits signals"?

Yeah.

That makes no sense.

Probably something like dropping from sixth gear to first while going down the highway at speed - your perception of everything around you is suddenly and dramatically slowed down.

Given that it clearly has an on off feature for the enhanced past human part, clearly it does make sense. I can think of tons of things in life that partially break and not totally break. You have spinal pathway #1 it transmits at normal human speeds, when it opens up spinal pathway 2-3 you have turned it on and now have beyond human reaction. You hack it, it bricks and spinal pathway 2-3 break but #1 which is not connected to the internet and on a physically separate path from 2-3 remains safe.

In that scenario, there's probably some system of complete isolation and insulation protecting something very similar to the normal paths.

Why wireless bonuses suck, thread #46282

Sadly it's going to keep coming up. When a primary system mechanic stinks this badly, it overlaps into other system discussions.

The technomancer cast Otto's Irresistible Dance?

http://youtu.be/tBJNYdHPcDE

So bricking a gun with smartlink only breaks the smartlink then?

Wow, these wireless bonuses are awesome! There's no risk involved at all! I enable them and if they get hacked, oops it's just one piece of gear that loses its bonus, rather than starting with them all disabled!

Thanks!

Yeah, that's amazing! I mean, as long as I have a 'backup' mechanical firing mechanism, clearly my guns can't be bricked at all!

Just say "NO!" to Wireless... your life will be easier for it.

It's called consistency. And people are not using it.



> "Oh wired reflexes has an off switch, therefore clearly bricking it doesn't leave you paralyzed."

My gun still works when I turn off the smartgun system. Does it sti--

> "No."

Why not?

> "Because it was bricked. Bricked. No longer functions. Broken. Needs to be repaired."

But wired reflexes.

> "Off switch. There's a redundant system that's immune to bricking."

...

That's it.. I am just going back to ROCKS.

Use them for melee, throw them or use a sling for range...

Or maybe become a rigger and just dri-

*Rigger 5 released*

COOL! wait a se-

*Sixth Edition announced*

NOOoooooooooo

First off, there is no need at all for Wired Reflexes to have a wireless input. To make it with a wireless input is stupid. Look at what happens to old skool pacemakers around microwave ovens, for crying out loud. Now extend this to a system designed for...y'know COMBAT in a word where magi shoot LIGHTNING BOLTS and having any part of your nervous system directly wired to a system that Except Random External Electromagnetic Signal = Yes is a very, very bad thing to have.

Same goes for smartguns. There is pretty much zero need for a smartgun to accept external wireless signals except at a very specific frequency range (don't forget FCC regs for bandwidth use in manufactured goods). This is a device made for COMBAT in a game world where everyone and their Mom has access to scriptkits to start the HAXORZ on your shit. Be a complete bitch if <insert random jamming device here> fired up and suddenly your whole tacnet crashed, right? Well, think about how long a smartgun system manufacturer is going to stay in business in a 100% connected world when street sammies are posting on their blogs that their electromechanical deathdealer took a shit and blew the 'run when some Scriptkiddie hit it with the Rape Stick with a stock cyberdeck.

I believe that that has been the stance on Wireless bonuses, since SR5's Inception, from the general populace. The bonuses are just stupid and not been thought out.
ESPECIALLY for anything within the body. *shrug*

Thank you, we are aware. Apparently, in the wondrous world of 2075, wired and skinlink signal transmission just don't work any more, and neither do p2p connections.
We've discussed this a hundred times already, there's no way to fix it, so why not just move on?

assuming by "no way to fix it" you actually mean "no way to change what the rulebooks say", then that might be true.

but i'm pretty sure that many people have "fixed" (read: removed) it just fine.

*cough* now called Wireless Reflexes *cough*

That's pretty much what I was implying, in a much more sarcastic and facetious manner.

What I was implying too.

I just had to turn the sarcasm off so that intent was clear.

So if I slap on a laser sight to my gun and its wireless and you hack the laser sight, the gun breaks?

sarcasm or not, your position doesn't work. There very clearly are places where bricking something should not damage the device its connected to. A smartlink on a revolver probably won't brick the gun, but a semi-auto with electronic firing might get bricked entirely. It would be great if they detailed things like this, but leaving it up to the GM is how it is.

Except that the smartlink's gotta move the hammer and spin the cylinder, so in theory it could.

I thought the smartlink just sent targeting data to your image link?

No, you can do things like fire via DNI, and the smartlink is what makes things like Ammo Skip work (which really seems like it should be a basic component for revolvers at the least).

The smartgun issue largely depends on being smart enough to keep the mechanical systems in place as a backup. This would be much easier for a revolver as you only need to manipulate the hammer to make the rest of the weapon work, but you would want a double-action only mechanism. Set the smartgun system on a few quick-release scope mounts and you can take the bricked smartgun system off and still have a working revolver in your hand. It would work largely the same with a DOA autoloader, but you would need to modify an autoloader more extensively.

Ammunition skip, while long a wet dream of gaming geeks, is actually a horrible idea in practice. There is a very good reason why police and military use only specially-designated (usually with a rather garish paint job of some sort or different colored plastic furniture) less-lethal weaponry. You get in the shit and you're running on adrenaline, adrenaline restricts your ability to process complex information like...oh, "What load is in chamber #4 again?" and you start a rapid series of unfortunate events when the expected stick 'n shock ends up mushrooming to 20mm or so and exits out the back of your targets neck along with most of a pair of neck vertebrae...

Oops? My bad!

If you want a less-lethal alternative, hard-earned experience directs us to the idea that mixing your food groups is non-optimal. Enter with a stick 'n shock gun in nice guy mode, swap to a firearm with lethal loads (or have a friend with a standard-loaded firearm right behind you) if being nice isn't going to get the job done.

You completely missed my point entirely.

People on this very forum argue that because the smartgun is attached to a gun, bricking the wirelessly enabled smartgun system will completely wreck the gun it's attached to. There's an After Action Report around here somewhere of a hacker bricking a sniper's sniper rifle.

But the very same principle is not applied to wired reflexes, which would render the user paralyzed. Except that it doesn't because "reasons."

Either the entire device is ruined (supported by raw) or it isn't (requires GM discretion, rule 0, common sense, logic, and detailed intricacies not addressed by raw or the fluff (such as just how the smartgun system is connected to the rest of the gun or how wired reflexes operate)).

The rules explicitly state that "the device stops working." But apparently "stops working" means "oh, you lose X benefit, but retain Y base functionality." But only for some items and not others.

Well, the logic on why a smartgun would brick the entire gun would be that the smartgun system is using the base wireless of the gun. All guns in SR5 have wireless that contains a lot of previously only smartgun features, like ammo count and wireless firing.

So presumably, the smartgun doesn't have its own wireless receiver/transmitter, but is using the gun's own wireless. That or its just a simple add on with some sensors that adds on to a gun.

While, wire reflexes isn't using your own nonexistent wireless receiver/transmitter built in to your own natural nervous system but is instead using its own dedicated wireless receiver/transmitter.

My main worry over the "bricking" of wired reflexes wouldn't be the paralysis but the large electric shock to my brain (or heart if it also handles the autonomous functions).

If you think that removing one of the foundational mechanics is "fixing" it, sure.

If bricking a device just turned off its wireless connectivity, you'd be right. Unfortunately, that's not supported by the RAW.

Ack double post.

What I wonder is how CLG dev' team feels today with the wireless idea.

Is the feedback that negative only here, or is it general?

Anyways, it's too late to make a step back so I guess they'll have it changed with a 6th edition only (or a 5.5)

Attached to an artificial spinal cord.

If the smartgun's wireless can brick other electronics in the gun, then the wireless in the wired reflexes can too.

Importa t to seperate the idea and the execution, really.

I was quite enjoying the discussion about armour before somehow it inexplicably became about wireless and bricking (again). Whoever did that, congratulations!

The idea that bricking Wired Reflexes paralyzes you is silly for a number of reasons, but I'm curious why people think it would? Or that it replaces the users spine, or entire nervous system, or other descriptions I've seen given.

Here's the whole fluff description from the book:


Nowhere does it say it replaces anything, let alone your whole spinal column. It adds some boosters, which when bricked would stop working. That's pretty straightforward to me. I've never got involved in this discussion before as it's inevitably a downward spiral, but the misinformation is reaching silly levels.

There's a main line developper as far as I know.


If I was in their staff and I wasn't ok with the way wireless works, I'd ask him to explain himself why he allows that.

This is probably my fault. I am not intimately familiar with the descriptions in 5th edition for anything and haven't cracked a book for any other edition in some time.

Its possible I was remembering the wrong piece of cyber. It's possible I'm remembering a description based on something someone else posted and they were wrong.

Even so, having something that is implanted inside your body catching fire* is likely to not be good for your health.

*Actual example of a bricking result from the book.

So... Lets talk about Reaction Enhancers, then. They replace areas of your vertebrae along your spine with Superconducting Material. What happens when that superconducting material lying along your spine catches fire (for example)? Apparently, you just go on about your business, according to some on the boards. Me personally, I tend to think that that situation would likely be fatal for a number of reasons, not the least of which is that your insides ARE ON FIRE. *shrug*

Same goes with anything that is Bricked Headware - I cannot see any result on that that would not be fatal.

It all started with a discussion about wireless bonuses for the armor, especially things like bonuses to social limits, which seems sort of nebulous.

Then invariably someone wondered what would happen if someone hacked/bricked the armor and the potential for fashion disaster (Anonymous behind Janet Jackson's wardrobe malfunction ? )

And you know how it goes from there

....

And now I have the distinct impression that the description of these two cybers is backwards.

One second...



Oh yeah, that looks much better.

And looking at the actual quote - there are words missing... it is incomplete. *sigh*

Well then we're back to the discussion of semantics, and the difference between occasionally and common, and always. Personally, it would be my belief that any hardware implanted inside the body would be shielded from the soft fleshy bits or they're unlikely to pass any testing phases in R&D, but each to their own. I just didn't think this was the place for another discussion about this instead of Armour, or Run & Gun.

I think if you're going with the 'Reaction Enhancers bricking MUST melt and destroy my spine' line of thinking, based on their fluff description then why not go a step further. Why do they work at all? How would replacing segments of bone with superconductors increase your reactions at all when bone carries no neural signal? The fluff is nonsense and basically doesn't work so make up something else, or don't use them at all. At a point though you just have to say 'These are the rules. This is what it does.' and go about your day