This is where I come back to consistency of the rules and their implementation.



A vibrosword is still sharp ("you can't brick a katana") and a roto-drone still glides to the ground on auto-gyro,* and firing pins on an assault rifle is jammed.

This is where the problem comes in.

The firing pin gets jammed. This is not something that should occur based on the rules for electronic devices and bricking because last I checked this was a mechanical operation. I don't see how bricking the smartgun system would produce this effect unless it uses electronic firing in which case there is no firing pin to jam.

Now we've opened up a whole can of worms. According to this one example we have a failed computer locking up the physical operation of the device, ruining its base functionality.

Unfortunately they offered no examples involving cyberware. If your arm is bricked, can you bend the elbow? If your leg is bricked, will it support your weight? If your eyes are bricked, can you still see?

None of these questions are answered and if the answer is "no" then what happens when you ask "if my cybernetic spinal chord is bricked, can I still move?"

The answer is "no."

The problem is that the answer probably is no based on the examples provided. Firing pins jam, electronics shut off, doors stay locked. Your cyberarm cannot process the electronic signals from your brain, it won't move. It's functionally a broken collar bone (or elbow in the case of a lower limb replacement). Your leg? Well that depends on if the joins lock up or swing free when the device is bricked. Could go either way.

But your spine?

Processing electrical signals is what it does. If it can't do that any more (all the electronic parts have failed) then I guess you're paralyzed.

The source of the problem is that the rules are silent on what happens to cyberware and the general rules (and fluff) that are all we have to determine what happens does not look like this:

We don't have that. Instead we have

There is NO interpretation of this which can be applied to cyberware and non-cyberware consistently that does not either:

a) results in bricked reaction enhancers leaving you paralyzed (because all electronic functions cease, and so do some mechanical ones)
b) results in bricked assault rifles still being guns (because the mechanical failures are non-sense)

*Questionable, as when I've seen demonstrations of this it still involves some degree of control over the aircraft. That is, the controls still work, but the engine isn't revving. In real helis the controls are all manual run on muscle power (in the most extreme of cases). For model aircraft the electronics are still functional and receiving input from the remote control device. But if the computer itself fails and is no longer running on autopilot..?

^^ Nail on the head right there. If the rules said 'a bricked device loses all of its wireless bonuses and becomes equivalent to a throwback' then we'd be in business with the interpretation people want to spin to avoid characters getting hosed. Sadly, that isn't what the rules say.

Just as a side note, this is about to change. The NH90 was the first military helicopter with electrical commands the Comanche was also supposed to before it was cancelled) , and the Bell 525 ought to be the first civilian one in 2015.

Now I know!
And knowledge is power!

...although amazingly, it does not demand any AR capabilities...

Because to operate optimally it needs that outside connection. They have already built the protection into the devices, 'it's called 'wireless off'. If you don't want to be vulnerable, just don't turn it on, just don't complain that you can't have the bonus AND be invulnerable to attack. Sometimes I think that a lot of people forget how things work in reality. A lot of things get designed in ways that they are vulnerable. Look at the internet. According to your logic it would have never been built....... except that it was.

That's all well and good, but why don't we all then assume that the interpretation that doesn't make everyone irrationally fear wireless and by extension, 5th edition is the one we should probably use? By your own admission you say there are no definitive rules. Why assume the one that renders the game unplayable in your own opinion is the one we should be using?

Because we like to build upon well designed and thought out rules, not rules which are considered shit by the very same authors who wrote them.

SYL

One interpretation makes the game unplayable.
The other makes the entire system pointless and superfluous.

Which system makes more sense? One that no one would play or the one that no one would use?

Well there's clearly as 3rd option which is that the system is completely playable, best of the lot so far, and is played by many.

Is that what I do almost every saturday and sunday?

No, the GM has to have it be bricked in a way that doesn't involve that; it's indisputable that the list of bricking consequences is inclusive, not exclusive.

ummm... no.

the internet is the way it is because it's designed to allow communication between millions of users across the world (initially, it's purpose was to allow communication between a somewhat smaller group, but it's function was still communication with others), and is routinely used for that purpose.

when we have a system where we want two devices to communicate with each other, and we want it to be reliable and secure, we generally use some form of cable. heck, even if it's only reliability we're after, we generally use cable; even when we have two devices that are physically separated from each other we won't necessarily use wireless; for example, most TV remotes use an infrared beam of light. probably because it's more energy-efficient than broadcasting in every single direction and more reliable than opening up your device to every random electronic signal that might pass through the area.

However, in SR, we have a system designed to allow any given device to communicate seamlessly with an indeterminate number of devices - a firearm, for example, might minimally be connected to a smartgun system, a system offering DNI control, and a commlink for security. However, it may then become connected to any number of image links or similar to share the footage, switch to be connected to a different system for security (such as a deck with a stronger firewall), and on, and on. I can't really think of anything that is ONLY a point to point connection at design phase.

But that's dangerously close to the rule 0 fallacy. The problem is that the actual description of bricking either says too much or not enough. Whatever is listed there has unfortunate implications: all of the examples given in the list (the ones which could apply, because there's no firing pin on cyberware) would result in critical, possibly deadly damage for the user. In fact, there's no reason to think that cyberware is magically immune to the sparks and overheating when non-cyberware devices are not. What you are doing is invoking GM fiat - rule 0 - to justify that cyberware systematically fails in a milder fashion.

And why should being "imaginative" restrict itself to coming up with mild annoyances for cyberware? If I'm being imaginative with wired relfexes bricking, I'll say that all the unfortunate victim's limbs bend the wrong way after the electronics embedded in his spine forces them into harmful positions. That's entirely in line with the rest of the examples that were given of "spectacular failure", because the paragraph is so unclear and confusing.

My point is that if they should have thought about the implications and issues raised by what they had written, and either replaced it by some lighter rules with fewer such implications, or given a more detailed list of what happens when a device is bricked. The only guidelines that were given point to severe or deadly consequences for reflex-ware or headware failures. It doesn't have to be that way, but everything in the book indicates that it should be in a significant number of cases.

And what purpose does it serve? Why? Why was it designed that way? There's literally no god damn reason why wired reflexes and reaction enhancers need to open up to the world at large just to bloody talk to each other.

Not to mention that that "connected to a comlink for security" even makes any sense. None. Zip. Zero. Nada.

Why?

1) Because the device doesn't need the internet
2) If it does, it doesn't need a wireless connection
3) Even if it does, being 'behind' a comlink actually does Jack and Shit to protect it. Hackers can't still attack it directly through other means.

So is every topic from now on just going to turn into bitching about wireless? Can you guys just make a thread for it, or some sequestered part of the forum?

if You've got a thorn in your Paw it hurts as long as it stays in the Paw
and only the Devs can remove the thorn officially
(At my table I will be playing without any thorns )

He who won't dance with a thorn in his Paw
Medicineman

That's great, but since every thread around here seems to turn into a giant clusterfuck of complaining about one thing it's turning what could be a place for useful discussion into you same eight people saying the same thing over and over again. It's getting old.

There's so many weird WiFi Boni , its never going to get old
and I really restrain myself to not beat a Dead Horse, often its someone new who discovers the weirdness
and than the thread derails.
Best example is this thread : only at the last page did I contribute by explaining why some of us are so angry. And I even added something positive to the WiFi

If You want to I could open a completely different Can of Worms
(Naaaah , I won't ,relax )

with a dance on Cans
Medicineman

Oh, so you are talking about SR4A, then. Well, I can get on board with that philosophy.

Yes, but so is adding the same sort of broken and nonsensical mechanics rulebook after rulebook. The reason why it was brought back to the table in *this* thread is that we're discussing a new book, with new and original flavors of silly rules.

no, we have a system that is designed to force it to communicate seamlessly with an indeterminate number of devices no matter how stupid it would be to design something like that.

a firearm, being a device which is designed to kill people, should not be designed to communicate with an indeterminate number of devices. at *most* it should be designed to broadcast what it's camera is viewing, without being able to receive any signals from the internet whatsoever. hooking the trigger up to the internet is insane. it is hard to imagine a situation where that could go well, and very very easy to imagine situations where it could go disastrously wrong. i can somewhat understand making it wirelessly accessible, with a very short range (like the 3 meters possible in 4th edition), but putting it on the internet? that is insane.

i can even to some extent understand making it wirelessly communicate at longer ranges in certain situations... for example, when it's hooked up to a remotely controlled drone. that makes sense, because you don't really have a more secure option. it doesn't make sense when you have a person holding it in their hand who you are paying to pull the trigger. and even for a drone, it doesn't make sense to hook it up to the internet instead of requiring at least mutual signal range, unless you are actually controlling it from the other side of the world rather than having someone local control it for some unfathomable reason.

my fridge is on the internet? sure, that makes loads of sense. now i can tell my fridge what i want to keep in stock, and it can automatically order it from a delivery service, and my fridge is likely not designed to kill people. in all likelihood, if someone hacks into my fridge, the worst thing that can happen is my food will go rotten and stink up my house/apartment/whatever, and frankly the people with the skills to do that most likely don't care enough to bother anyways.

but all it takes is one hacker with an axe to grind, and suddenly if a person they hates owns cyberware, they can cripple or seriously injure or even kill that person. and we're talking about a setting where there is a small chance that *anyone* could spontaneously and largely without any means of detecting that it has happened develop the ability to hack things.

Can of Worms
Wireless Bonus: opens itself.

With a Pandora's Dance

Sendaz

From the fluff side, it's almost like literally everyone involved in-universe has forgotten why deckers have been such a security problem since the Echo Mirage days.

Or the results of both Crashes. Dear God, Crash 3.0 is going to be hilarious, as it gets to start bricking people and not just servers.

Other than...

- If someone takes your gun away
- If you're wrestling with someone for the gun
- If you have some gecko tape and need to create a trap
- If you want to connect it to an IFF system so that you don't accidentally hit friendlies in the fog of war, or can use suppressing fire without worrying about friendly fire
- If your finger is injured and you can't squeeze the trigger

Those took seconds to come up with. Also, "internet connected triggers" have been a thing since SR4, and part of what you have to remember is that there is no form of device-to-device wireless that is not a Matrix connection - not because people decide to not to use them, but because all such forms of connection are subsumed into the Matrix.

Of course, if they're pulling data from sensors in the area in order to run predictive analysis through an expert system to coordinate the responses of those two devices, that absolutely would need to open up to the world at large.

Of course, this is one of those explanations that suggests a much more interesting system than we presently have, but there you go.

I'm really starting to think that the reason people can't get on borad with this is that a) they have no actual concept of risk analysis and b) they keep forgetting that Shadowrun is set in the future.

Point b) I can kind of understand. When you look at the technology in Shadowrun the gap between it and reality has lessened. I mean the description of a comlink is pretty funny. It talks about a comlink being a smart phone and....... everything else that is just what a smartphone is

Point a) can be seen across so many of the arguments presented on these forums. The warzone one is a classic. Why does anyone actually think that a decker bricking a soldiers wired reflexes would be concern to doubts the whole setup? Here's something that you are not considering: Soldiers face risk. On the battlefield the face it constantly from a multitude of threats. The risk of decker attack exists, but you have to ask how significant is it. Let's say that a soldier in medium combat armour with high levels of cyber puts an army back $200k (there's a whole other argument over whether this would ever even happen in reality, but no-one is bringing that one up.......). A decker that's going to pose any threat to that soldier (and we can argue how much threat as well, I'm nit in the boat of making up rules for exploding cyberware but that's just me...) is probably going to put a force back $400-500k!. This isn't even mentioning that the decker is going to have to go into VR within 100m of soldiers with heavy weapons and assault rifles. This doesn't seem particularly realistic to me. True, perhaps the benefits of wireless are not substancial enough to warrant having them on, but I would think that a 5% edge over someone not sporting wireless would be worthwhile (regardless of the realism of wireless systems. Argunments which are fairly dubious when considering a technology 60 years into the future) and the intent of the whole mechanic.

Another example of people having no idea of actual risk is about how fastidious corp security is. Here's a simple question: When's the last time you gave 2 seconds thought to someone walking around your place of work wearing a hard-hat or wearing a cleaner's get-up? if you work in a big organisation I'd be surprised if the answer was anything but never. I personally work for an agency in the Australian government that deals in sensitive information (albeit nothing in relation to national security or law enforcement) and I can tell you that no-one thinks twice about it. In fact you can tailgate someone through a passcard door and they will almost never question you on it, especially if you're wearing a suit. Yet I'm constantly seeing how GMs on this forum are going on about how impossible such a task should be. At the end of the day big organisations are going to have lazy employees, just like anywhere else. You don't question that person tailgating you because you don't want to sound like a dick or you just don't want to deal with confrontation. Will they be more uptight given the nature of the setting? Yeah maybe, but I don't think you can say that people still don't have the level of apathy and incompetence that we have today.

"Its set in the future" isn't really a justification for anything. Is it something that could happen? Sure.

Is it something that is reasonably expected to take place? Not by a long shot.

*looks at the existence of social media*

You were saying?

Well, I can guarantee you that at our facility, you do not enter certain areas unless you are escorted at all times. No ifs, ands or buts. No exceptions.
And on-site security is a really big deal; so much so that yes, you are questioned if you are not recognized.

Even the Maintenance personnel are vetted, and they are always the same. If a new maintenance guy/gal comes onsite, they are escorted at all times.
Well, At least until their badges are issued, anyways.

That said... I have been in High Security areas (even in the military) where the level of security is indeed laughable. In Others, non-recognition could get you detained or shot, depending upon where exactly you were discovered.

The number of times I have come across passcodes for door that follow a simple sequence, for an example a 1478 (basic L shape on a 9 digit key pad) really irritates me and when I ask why I get told its because it is simpler to remember... *sighs*

Yeah... Seen that a lot too... People are inherently lazy when it comes to security. Takes a lot of effort to put a proper scheme into place, and even more to follow it consistently.

"1, 2, 3, 4, 5? What? That's the kind of passcode an idiot has on his luggage!"
Later...
"1, 2, 3, 4, 5? That's incredible! It's the same combination I have on my luggage!"

Last I checked no one hooked up their guns to Twitch.

Social media is one thing, and yes, it's forcing people to divulge a lot of personal information about themselves that should really be kept private* but it's a whole nother league to ask people to place firearms in the hands of the internet.

*Know what works as a credit check without having to get permission? Seeing if the person has purchase furniture coasters. You know, to protect their expensive hardwood floors from scratching by their high end furniture...

And yet, given the rarity of deckers, questions of target selection, and so on, the benefits likely outweigh the risks.

I'm actually curious about something now, though, so I have a question for those members who've served: What is the procedure for if your weapon stops working, anyways?

Suddenly I am having images of having my IFF for the smarkgun linked to Facebook so I don't ever shoot 'Friends'

... "RedWunzGoFastah has sent you a Foe Request."

Also, with the mention of Twitch I'm imagining a run somehow involving Twitch Plays. Such as: Twitch Plays Biodrones.

That was kind of why I mentioned Twitch.

Also
http://xkcd.com/1333/

Pretty basic "tap (to be sure the magazine is seated), rack (the action back to be sure it's feeding correctly), (and hopefully)bang(when you pull the trigger)" drill to start. If the stoppage continues there are other, more extreme clearance drills. If it's "bricked", they tend to either sling it, toss it aside, and/or hope someone drops a rifle or other weapon they can get their mitts on. The stoppage drills are the main reasons why spec ops pretty much universally carry a sidearm.

Depends on what you mean by stops working..

If you pull the trigger and you hear the click of the firing mechanism but not the bang from the bullet, you may have a dud or maybe the mag is not seated right so it's not feeding into the chamber properly.

In this case you would probably check the mag, possibly reseating it, then cycling the current round out for a fresh one. Caution here as some rounds may have hangfired, ie slow burning and could still go off to set these aside facing away from any persons, preferably in a bucket of sand if handy.

If you don't get the initial click then the firing mechanism may be jammed itself and what to do will depend on the weapon.

Or were you meaning something else?


+1

- the decker doesn't need to be within 100 meters unless the cyberware in question is *not* on the matrix and not getting wireless bonuses. if you're getting wireless bonuses, you're not just wirelessly enabled, you are literally on the internet, and anyone on the internet can screw with you (with varying degrees of penalties... but heck a datajack alone will greatly extend your range). granted, if you're *not* connected to the matrix, which is what any sane person would be doing, then no you don't need to worry about hackers nearly as much as you need to worry about, say, airstrikes. but then you're not getting any wireless bonuses either.
- you don't need the 400,000 nuyen deck. it certainly helps, but it isn't required. cyberware in general is pretty easy to hack unless you actually have it backed up by a host (and if you do, bye-bye noise penalties, and once you've hacked the host you pretty much get to completely wreck devices that are connected to it big time, so that investment in a cyberdeck is once for basically *all* of their cyberware on all of their soldiers).


@RHat:
- if someone took your gun away, you lost the fight. no, really, you got into HtH combat and lost. and you still probably don't want to shoot it, although you might want to have the safety automatically activate as soon as it's separated from you... but that still doesn't require the matrix. just wireless. or even the gear that throwback smartguns have used for years, and which is extremely secure.
- if you're wrestling for the gun, you still don't want it to be fired using wireless. you don't have the gun under control, so you don't want it to fire. unless of course you have a particular fondness for getting shot accidentally.
- the odds of actually being able to hit someone accurately with a gecko taped gun are slim at best. they have to move into the exact perfect spot, because you can't aim. they have to actually be going anywhere near the place where you're aiming for you to even have a slight chance. if you want a gun drone, invest in a gun drone (which can actually do things like aim, and probably even move). they're cheap, and i already acknowledged they have a legitimate reason to be wireless... but they STILL don't have any legitimate reason to need to be on the matrix. also, your gun will be broadcasting it's presence... good luck getting anyone to walk into the trap that literally tells everyone where it is. also, that way you don't have to give up your own gun and leave it taped to a wall somewhere.
- an IFF system can broadcast just fine over regular wireless. needing to hook it up to the matrix so that it can then communicate with the IFF system you're carrying with you is complete and utter nonsense.
- if your finger is injured and you can't squeeze the trigger, that is *still* an awful idea to hook it up to the matrix. make it wireless? sure. make it wireless and hook up to the internet? no. that is complete and utter nonsense.

the vast majority of that utility can be gained from skinlink. what little cannot be gained from skinlink works just fine when it's wireless, and not a single one of those things would logically require being on the matrix to function.

1: The point is to prevent it from firing, yes - and it requires wireless, and if wireless is on, you're on the Matrix (static zone issues aside; Noise from a static zone shouldn't really effect local transmission the way it does...); there are no wireless device-to-device connection protocols that are not subsumed by the Matrix.
2: Considering you'd control the precise timing of the firing, and can see there the bullet will hit when it does, I don't see why you wouldn't command it to fire; however, that said, you could easily command it to lock the safety on, let the weapon go, and draw and fire a different weapon - either way achieves the same outcome, and benefits from the wireless of the weapon.
3: You know that prank where you put a bucket of water over a door, and it drops on someone who walks through it? It's like that - you set it up so that the weapon is pointed at a point in space you can be reasonably certain the target will have to occupy at some point.
4-5: You're going with this "wireless non-Matrix" thing again, and that doesn't exist. Whatever thing it would be transmitting over is subsumed into the Matrix.

If the wireless is on, it's on the Matrix. And that's not new to SR5.

Well, I'm basically referring to circumstances where the weapon is inoperable for one reason or another; and especially after the equivalents to turning it off and back on again (in terms of always being the first thing to do) are exhausted. Basically, I'm wondering what modern procedure is for a weapon in the same circumstance as a bricked weapon in Shadowrun occupies - it simply cannot be fired. I take it there's some sort of guidelines on what to do to get it working again (field repairs of a sort, I suppose)? If those don't work, do you simply fall back on a sidearm until the weapon can be exchanged for a functioning one or properly repaired?

So, quick question: Who here has characters who own or carry throwback gear specifically for anti-decker work?

If I was playing:
Yes



Or non-wireless biometric controls.



You....are not going to be looking at the image link while in a grapple. You just aren't.



Buckets and water don't require wireless. Guns don't either.



Strangely, devices with their matrix connection turned off can still send and receive data at 100 meters...

You mean someone who uses nothing but the guns in GH1?

Well admittedly, the Wild West guns in GH3 got me thinking about a cowboy gunslinger adept...

Seriously, folks, just stop responding to RHat. He's just going to keep popping up in every discussion on wireless to troll with the same handful of absurdist points so long as anyone acknowledges them by trying to argue them in good faith.

1: Legitimately an option for non-issued weapons, yes, and one I expect we'll see in Run and Gun.

2: You may or may not drop it from your view. Either way, you can still prevent the weapon from firing if you want.

3: Then what would be the method of triggering?

4: I may have missed a rule - it has happened a couple times with the SR5 Matrix stuff. Care to provide a citation?

Binarywraith: I resent the accusation, but don't think I'm going to engage you on the point.

Maybe we should introduce 'wired' bonuses? You know, bonuses that only apply when you're physically wired into the backbone of the matrix due to wired communication being faster than wireless?