I'd figure that it was part of the new Matrix protocols - basic access for these sorts of purposes is baked in, because the corps realized that if they did things that way they could make more money (because people are much less likely to buy into something that basically only works when all the sensors in the area are from the same manufacturer). That way, if the Azzie security team is using, say, the Yamaha Raiden due to it's being a damn good assault rifle, they also still get the benefit. And given how quickly this needs to operate, I can see them wanting to keep barriers to function out of the way.

But if you wanted to treat this stuff as "aspected" for lack of a better term, that could be an interesting system; would hacker then basically be able to break into the domain prior to the run to get your team access?

So now you add caveats? That is not how it works. *shrug*
Per the Premise, the US should have stomped all over the Vietnamese, and all opposition since the Vietnam War. The fact that is has not turned out that way is very telling.
Therefore, irregardless of whether all things are equal, technology is just a tool that may or may not provide a winning scenario.

And I suppose it hasn't occurred to you that the Vietnamese had advantages like familiarity with the environment that prevented this from being a case of "all things being equal"?

Wow... the rationalization continues.
Yes, the Vietnamese has terrain familiarity, and substandard training, and substandard tools, substandard nutrition, etc. So, they were outgunned, out trained, and out teched. And yet, they still managed to kick ass all over their little country for over a decade.

Either Superior Tech matters or it is just a tool. Which is it?
Because if you are going to use the rationale that Terrain Familiarity matters, the Corps will always win; it is their home ground after all. Damn, Shadowrunners might as well just pack it up and go home. *shrug*

Having served in the Military, I can guarantee you that Tech is JUST a tool, and nothing more. Sometimes it matters, and other times it does not.

That's a false dichotomy, and you know it.

And you seem to be misunderstanding what "all things being equal" means, since you've been bring up examples where that wasn't the case.

No it isn't. That was what was stated earlier... that Superior Tech wins. And as I pointed out, that is false.

Or you could just acknowledge that the book differentiates 2 scenarios: one inside 100m where you can spot hidden icons and one outside 100m where you need to KNOW (as opposed to guess or assume) something about the icon (which knowing it's hidden within 100m is defined as something you know).



Yes, when you know something about the icon (beside's Joe told me so) you can then search for it outside 100m with applicable noise penalties.



Exactly, so what are you arguing exactly? Just tell me how you KNOW anything about an icon outside of 100m? Give me a scenario that involves the matrix, not just that "Steve saw some bloke at co-ordinates X/Y and that he probably has gear and stuff".



/sigh. Hosts are on hardware aren't they? And I think that there's an argument against whether you can just have devices passively slaved to hosts but whatever. The issue here is that you just want there to be an issue so you can join the haters. We get it, just don't play it or pretend there's no wireless or whatever helps you reconcile the game so you can play it. Just don't expect to find rational people in droves who are going to share your Shadowrun world view.

Well, historically that's the case, but what was ACTUALLY stated is that "all things being equal, the superior tech wins". Yes, it's a tool, but if both sides are making full use of all of their tools, and are making equally good strategic and tactical decisions given available information, and know the ground just as well as each other, and so on, then the side that has a very useful tool the other does not, and in fact has more and better information than the other side because of this tool, then the side that has that tool will win.

The fact that it's a tool like anything else, which I've previously acknowledged, doesn't changed this point at all. It's a tool, but it's a tool that MATTERS.

Exactly. Any argument about this kind of thing has a caveate and that caveate is 'All things being equal - this"

All things being equal, the better tech provides an advantage. TJ, you can not provide anything to suggest that the Vietnam war would have been won if the US had the crappier technology AND every other variable didn't change.

If every village in afganistan was carpet bombed (and I'm in no way suggesting this be a solution) then the resistance in Afganistan would stop. If collateral damage became something that wasn't considered then the force with the better technology would win every time.

(can't wait for all the geo-political arguments that are bound to spring up now. So much for moving goal posts..........)

So, Smash, here is a question...

My Runners KNOW that the Security Team carries Hidden gear. They KNOW the Matrix Frequencies that the gear talks on, the know the Make and Model of their weapons, their Comlinks, and the ware they have in their bodies. They KNOW which guard has which cyber. They KNOW that the facility covers 5 square miles of wilderness, and have mapped it out via satellite, air and ground drones. They KNOW all this because their hacker managed to hack the supplies and personnel database prior to going in, and spent an additional week conducting remote surveillance on the facility. And yet you still tell me that the Team Hacker will have absolutely no way of identifying any of that once they start the run because he has never been with 100 Meters of a guard prior to the run? If that is your stance, I have to disagree with you.

America had all the advantages but one, and had the overwhelming Technological advantage. By the statement made earlier, the US should have kicked ass all over that little country. And yet that did not happen. Are you going to tell me that their knowledge of the terrain overcame all the other deficits that they suffered under? If THAT is your stance, I call BS as well.

The Fact is: Technology is JUST A TOOL. Yes, it can give advantage. But that advantage does not a war win.

In Shadowrun, the Runners are on the losing end of that equation every time, when they go up against the Megas. So, all things being equal, the Corps will win every time, since they have the technological advantage. So, Runners go home. Game over.

What one advantage didn't they have?

Terrain Familiarity - Apparently that goes to the Vietnamese.
Training, Equipment, Tech, Infrastructure - All go to the US.

In Shadowrun's Case...
The Megas have ALL the Advantages, and the Technological Edge to boot. So why ever run against them? According to you and Smash, the runners lose at that point. After all, they have the superior technology. Or have you come around to the point I was trying to make in that Technology is simply a tool to be used?

From what I understand and remember from my high school history class, we were winning, both areas controlled and peopled killed(and in both percentage and total). However, there was a huge moral problem, in part stemming from the news reporting upon soldier's bodies being brought home. This also caused tons of turmoil at home that led to us eventually backing out. This could, of course, be colored by America dictating what I heard in school, so grain of slat there, but that is what I remember hearing about.

How's about troop motivation/morale? Enemy recognition? Climate adaptation? Things I can't even think of?

I'm pretty damn sure there was more than one advantage that went to the Vietnamese, and certainly there were some very, very major ones - the terrain was basically a weapon for them, way I understand it.

Trying to stay away from the politics of the war and stay on track with the premise of Technology as an "I Win" button. But yes, there were Political Issues as well.

The VC had the ability to hit and fade. They also had a psychological advantage.

Although I will say this, ultimately, the megas do always win against the 'runner because they (the mega) has every advantage in scores. You may beat them for a time, but they will always win, given a long enough timeline.

Troop Motivation/Morale is a wash in my book - Both sides were pretty demoralized.
Enemy Recognition is a red herring. Both sides had issues with that as well.
Climate? Maybe, but having been in a variety of environments (both in war and out) during my time in the Corps, acclimatization happens relatively quickly.
As for things you can't think of, they also apply to both sides.

We should probably move away from the realities, though, as I never intended to get into an in-depth conversation on the socio-political aspects of the war, and bring it back to Shadowrun. Though I do stand by my comments.

Apologies for the diversion into TOS territory.

I disagree with your assessment, but perhaps we should stop discussing this on thread. Not a bad subject to take to PM though.

Whee!
Can't even form a rational argument now.
I can't decide if this is Special Pleading, Bandwagon, or Appeal to Authority. None of this matters though, it's all fantasy!

Vietnam was lost because of a lack of political will and corruption. In fact, these same two issues haunted us in Iraq Part Deux and still cause us grief in Afghanistan.

Can't be special pleading - that applies to calling for a special exemption in only one case because that case is "special"; by comparison, this argument would be extending already existing exemptions to something else. Bandwagon doesn't really work either. Frankly, Appeal to Authority doesn't really apply because the reasons for the authority's standpoint are provided.

If you're going to call out fallacies, at least make sure they apply.

Coming back to this...

I would say that "All things being equal" does not work as a comparison. Mainly because in the real world (or the "world" of Shadowrun) there is never an instance where you can actually make that statement. The advantage always goes to one side or the other. And that advantage does not always matter. I still stand by the statement that Technology is just a tool. You can have an inferior force make better use of their tools than the superior side makes use of theirs. And that is where the Shadowruner can shine, since he will always be the underdog in any comparison to the Corporations. If he can make better use of the tools he has, then he may just win the day.

Either way, I don't give two shits any more as you haven't actually refuted my argument.

I invite all tech-fanboys to google for German "Inpol alt" and "Inpol neu" (if they want to cry).

Tech indeed can be awesome, but as pointed out it is just a tool. At the right time, under the right conditions this tool may be the deciding factor. However every tool is just as good as the creator and user. And especially in a world like Shadowrun, a dystopia, with corruption, lethal inner fighting, gigantic monolithic corps with more bureaucracy then the US combined. Yes, in theory tech is perfect. What is not perfect is the creator and the user, and if you look around IRL and just imagine that the guy who cannot even reset his own password and answers the tech support question "What web browser are you using?" with "Windows XP" is the same guy running the security scans and alert distribution processes in Shadowrun

Just a small example: some month ago almost half of the US Air Force ISBM launch officers (you know the guys who could level a continent in 30min) were put on hold because it was made public that they all failed their tests. I would like to emphasize that the US Air Force is, compared to the rest of the world, one of the most technological advanced armies in the world, and that it was well known that they all have failed (for years). Other officers were put on trial, because the Dominos pizza boy simply was able to walk into the open launch bunker to deliver pizzas (and found the launch officers sleeping). And I would consider the launch facility of the nuclear armagedon to be a place with strict supervision, control and countercontrol with a lot of tech supporting the mission (and security). And yet, all the tech, all the controls, all the "you are fucking working in an ICBM launch bunker, don´t screw up" mentality did not help - the need for a double pepperoni with extra cheese is stronger than mission orders.

Ignoring human stupidity, corruption, laziness, greed is simply unrealistic.

And I cannot image anything different 60 years in the future.

So yes, the corps have the better tech. Unfortunately its off power, because of pizza delivery.

SYL

Any sort of analysis has to start somewhere; isolating something out as the only influencing factor is a good place to start.

You're kinda shifting the discussion into a different area now, though; what had been under discussion was the idea that this tech would be useful to militaries.


In any case, the place where runners shine are in the gaps, but they need to grab any edge they can.

This again comes down to Shadowrun being about infiltration missions rather than warfront confrontations which is why technological advantage is not necessarily as big a player as it might be otherwise. In addition, there's no reason why every run a Shadowrunner does is against someone with technological superiority. Anyway, to your question.

In short, no they shouldn't be able to affect those devices. BUT,

If you were to say that on the host for the facility, etc you were going to infiltrate there was some kind of log of all the security personels licensed devices with perhaps some kind of network ID that would constitute KNOWING something about icons (which I think would be a GM call) then sure, you could now hack them from over 100m away. However, I would wonder why this information would be there and so readily accessible?

I won't present any scenarios because i'm not supposed to move goal posts, especially the one's I never set to begin with. I will say that I am 100% in my conviction that a photo of a gun does not constitute KNOWING anything about it's icon or whether it is online or not.

You still have no idea what you're talking about, and it's sad that you keep rambling on and don't go read up on it.

If Shadowrunners aren't consistently up against people with technological superiority in the Matrix arena, please explain GOD.

God has nothing to do with this subject we are talking about people who might hack the runners gear. And in that context they are not constantly going against people with technological superiority. Even corps aren't outfitting all their combat deckers with fairlights. You hate wireless so much you have gone off the rails entirely attacking it. yeah wireless sucks for a wide range of reasons, this isn't one of them.

so knowing the exact gun they're using, and what operating system, somehow amounts to not knowing anything about the gun's icon. which is almost definitely the default gun. on account of nobody wants to have to patch and troubleshoot thousands of different operating systems, any more than they want to have to deal with having spare parts for a thousand different guns.

standard gear is used for a reason. as a result of using standard gear, you can know a lot of things about the icon just by knowing what gear they have. and you only need to know *one feature*. as i've said before, it is incredibly unlikely that they wrote "one feature" when what they meant was "the only feature that counts is that you have personally seen that exact icon before and know beyond a shadow of a doubt that it is there".

you are always guessing it's there. always. unless you can see it, right this instant, you're just assuming that they didn't shut off their wireless. if you can't see the icon right now, you are guessing. you are making an educated guess, but it is still a guess, just like anyone else saying "hey, there's a guy over there using tons of gear that has a wireless bonus available, and i know his location, several pieces of gear that he's using, and i know he has to be using standard matrix protocols because otherwise he can't be on the matrix". if me seeing a person and guessing that their gear is online is not good enough, then you seeing their icon, and then losing track of it and guessing that it's still online and hidden is not good enough, and nobody can ever detect any hidden signals ever, period, unless it's within 100 meters, and that table is just trolling us all by bothering to have anything that says what the roll for detecting things beyond 100 meters is.

and we're still making the assumption that you can't scan from your persona's location rather than your device's location, which is insane. i can detect from any location on earth to the inside of a host, if i am on the host, using my own device's attributes. i cannot detect to any location on earth, no matter how close i am to it, when i am inside a host. conclusion: it's where your persona is, not your device, that matters. you're not searching for wireless signals with hardware, you're searching the fabric of the matrix for traffic, and it's a matter of how well your device is capable of sifting through all that data to find the one scrap of information you want (as well as your own ability to look for exactly the right thing in exactly the right place).

GOD is what they're constantly ducking - the only time GOD comes into the picture is if you let your OS get too high.

You're almost there, keep rubbing those neurons together. Now why is GOD a threat?

I'll give you a hint, maybe it's because they have something over the runners...

GOD's a threat, more than anything, because of Convergence. It actually doesn't matter where they are compared to the runners technologically; the threat they pose is carried out through overwhelming force. They don't NEED technological superiority (which, on a case by case basis, they may or may not have), because they have so many other advantages right down to a battlefield designed to win half the battle for them.

And that, my friends, was the sound of the goalposts breaking the sound barrier.

Clearly, it is not possible for there to be any such thing as technological superiority to our dear commenters, as if you break things down far enough, you will find that someone, somewhere, in part of the massively overwhelming force with technological capabilities and resources far in advance of any singular decker, is using a paperclip a version behind. Hence they are not superior.

It's almost like you didn't bother to read that post... There's nothing to actually guarantee GOD's technological superiority, is my point, and they don't need it to win. I'm not really sure what it is you're trying to argue here...

So what point are you actually arguing here? I only ever stated that the reason why a technological force may not prevail is political. Almost all the points I've been making is about why hackers aren't such a big deal against the insane assumption that they would render conventional warfare totally redundant.

And here's the thing, you're wrong again. If the runners go up against a gang, or perhaps a cult or a the humanis policlub the enemies may not even have matrix support. Nor will they have legitimacy with GOD either.

So how about instead of climbing all up on that high horse of bullshit you explain to me how you can detect a hidden icon outside of 100m without knowing something about it first? And you know cite a rule or something. Try and do better than Jaid though who seems to think that the matrix is bound by the metric system as opposed to your hardware's ability to scan the real world to 100m. Or that a table with an outside of 100m column means that you can ignore the accompanying rules about what constitutes knowing something about an icon. Somehow you can change that requirement to 'assuming someone might have a gun... and it might be a big one!'

Or if that's too hard without going off on some tangent about how wireless actually works now, maybe someone could explain how you measure 100m in the matrix then?

Or you could just stay up on that high horse and look like an ass. Your choice I guess.

New Cyberdeck add-on

VR RangeFinder

Wireless Bonus: Accurately reads virtual ranges of icons from 1 to 100m



Serious though, it seems the 100m mark must be the limit of your normal online perception, not unlike the minimap you have in the corner of your screen for some games, beyond that it must fade out into noise that you would have to expend some effort to sort through. You can detect things, but it is more involved doing so.

But even then you are going to be observing/handling a large number of virtual chaff to sort through and will be heavily filtering, so that the obvious icon of the coffee maker in the break room you are sneaking past is not distracting you from more important matters.
Now toss in searching for hidden icons and other icons using wrapper to mask their appearance, (The 'coffee maker' could actually be something else) and I do not envy the decker's job of having to sort through this all.

Okay, this is certainly off topic.
However with this issue at hand I decided to go and re-read the Matrix section back and forth a few times.
This is what I've found.

The distances all very explicitly are determined by Physical Distance from target.
Hosts have a physical distance of Zero
Anything in a Host (or indeed Slaved to one) is always Within 100m of you if you are within the Host
The Matrix Perception table is NOT exhaustive, so you can use a hit for any piece of data deemed reasonable
The only thing required to try to find a Silent Running Icon is Some Idea it is there, local vicinity for ALL silent running icons is an example of a piece of Matrix Perception data to do this.
The Icon feature, inferred from information scattered through out the section, are things like Device Function (weapon, Commlink, maglock etc), Owner, Actual Icon Imagery, PAN, Persona and Physical Location.

So using that and a little inferred logic it would be a perfectly acceptable use of a Matrix Perception test hit to ask "Are there any Matrix Icons running silent Owned by Ares over 100m from me?" this would probably drop back a lot of data so the next Matrix perception hit could be used to filter to those within say "The Building the Team is in" then you filter again for "Commlinks". So for three hits, assuming you did that well, or a couple of perception tests you could be able to confirm or deny the presence of say the UnHost linked Commlink with the Drekhot paydata on it the Johnson wants you to retrieve (assuming its linked to the Matrix). Then you can actually try and find the Icon in question as per the Spotting check.

To me at least that looks pretty much RAI and works completely within the flexible boundaries written within RAW. I am sure some of are over complicating this either by accident or because you simply don't want to rules to work.

I think that is where a lot of people feel odd about the Running Silent bit.

If all you have to do to notice a Running Silent icon is say, 'are there any hidden icons on the group of people approaching me?', that comes across as we are less Running Silent and more like Walking Casual and hope nobody is paying attention.


Don't get me wrong, that is how it is supposed to be, you are not uber-invisible, you are just toning down your electronic footprint so to speak.

Granted they still have to do the test to locate/find the particular icon with the appropriate rolls against logic & sleaze, but there is the continuing thought in the back of the head going, shouldn't we be more invisible?

The answer is sadly no.

Of course the smart player will simply not turn on unnecessary devices until it becomes necessary. All the searching for icons wont detect that Predator currently in offline mode until you power it up and by then it's too late to stop them from taking the shot.

True Sendaz.
But I more imagine running Silent is much like BlueTooth Off, or Airplane mode etc, it's a reduced signal bearing in mind that you can still do everything that you can do if not running silent (at -2). Given that joe citizen probably very rarely has to roll to do Matrix stuff and can almost count on 1 hit for the few things he does, which is enough to do those day to day uses Silent is a good security option against most threats.
Against people like Deckers that security step is just that, step 1. Used by itself it's almost a joke, but that draws several RL and previous edition parallels anyway. Who recalls hacking through Blue and Green hosts in SR3? Those are basically the same as Standard and Silent in SR5 (and even without sleaze I believe a Commlink can still use Logic or Rating to get Some dice back and all those hits in an opposed brings a Decker closer to GOD). What would have been Orange and Red Hosts are typically where the Slaved through a Deck and Host stuff comes in now.

Exactly, we said pretty much the same thing though you expressed it in much better form.

But when people see Running Silent, they think it is more like Magical invisibility for the Matrix when it actually is closer to Concealment or camouflage , hence a large part of the confusion and arguing I suspect.

Moirdryd, before I respond I just want you know that the sarcasm laced into my response it not really aimed at you. I commend you for having a reasonable shot at reading the rules as opposed to some who just decided what the rules should be and then complain about their own constructs.



But alas it's not. The only thing that supports that logic in any way, and I stress 'the only thing' is the statement 'This list is not exhaustive'. If the list was exhaustive (and it really wouldn't have been that hard to come up with a list that covered 99% of scenarios and in fact limited the other 1% by design).

So why can't my one bit of knowledge that I seek be 'I want to know about stuffz that I should know about?' I mean why not? That would constitute adding something to a list I suppose. Let's add another quote from the book: An example from p271.



Seems reasonable enough so far. It continues:



Actually this is the Jaid definition of knowing something where you actually are just assuming something and don't know squat. Luckily for Spike he's assuming they are within 100m which is lucky because the rules don't require you to know squat about icons running silent within 100m to find them.



Hmmm, well that's confusing because surely the 100m rule in the book is completely pointless isn't it? Maybe old Spikey should have just said "I want to know where all Driver's hidden icons are, hidden mode be damned, and let's just pretend that they're all within 100m, there's a good chap Mr Matrix".

At this point I bow out and leave you all to your unplayable Systems of your own making. Enjoy!

....

I have a feeling that you lost the concept of "physical" somewhere.

I gave you a whole list of things that can indicate knowledge about gear. And you continue to resist the implications of that knowledge. Not sure we have a basis of comparison to continue the topic. If all you need is ONE piece of information about an Icon, and you have that information, you have enough to perform a search. If I know the target was issued an Ares Predator, that is enough information to look for that Predator. Simple as that. If he is carrying an off-duty weapon instead, then no, that Icon's presence will not register on the guy (assuming he does not actually have it on him - or conversely I will detect it 6.2 Miles away in his desk drawer). However, if he does, my knowledge will allow me to detect it, assuming I roll well enough, and it IS online (which all weapons apparently are by default unless specifically addressed - per your and Rhat's declaration that Wireless = Matrix online).

I'm not even touching that one with a ten foot pole because, as quoted below :



Your personal standard for 'KNOWING' something about an icon to make it possible to check if it is present is so absurdly high as to make the rules never usable. Hell, by your standard, a guy could drop his stealthed commlink on the far end of a soccer field, and his hacker buddy could never help him find it because he could never KNOW it was on the pitch and not out in the car or on the dresser at home, and thus couldn't go looking for it no matter how well (make/model etc) it was described to him. It is absurd and far beyond the scope of the rules as written, simply because any other interpretation makes your whole standpoint collapse around the fact that the writers put much, much less thought into the system than you are.

I'm not calling you an idiot, I'm saying you're reading a lot more complexity and consistency into these rules than actually exists.

Also, it doesn't take a database to know something about what someone's carrying more than 100m away. All it takes is a remote drone/security camera penetration/pair of binoculars/cybereye with zoom to get a good look at them. Unless they're running all custom gear (which is vanishingly unlikely, even the military uses name-brand gear for ease of logistics), visual identification is relatively easy.

He was looking for them WITHIN 100 Meters. He did not expand his search beyond that zone, which he could have done if he chose to do so.

I understand this, as much as I stated the rules say otherwise earlier. The problem comes down to there being no definitive list of what you can "know" about an icon, or whether there's any sort of way to "assume" an icon exists by knowing the physical item exists, which is why I had made the suggestion of bringing in Knowledge skills or Matrix Search tests to find out what kinds of icons a piece of gear or another persona is likely to be using so that you can use that to attempt a Spot test.

However, you can also say something like if the guy who dropped his commlink thought that losing it was a serious concern, he could have just invited a mark from his hacker buddy so that his 'link would stay hidden to everyone but the hacker would see it plain as day.

The worst part is, discussions like this are one of the reasons I'm seriously considering switching my group of runners back to SR4A, provided the group doesn't fall apart because we don't have enough players. I hated the SR4 Matrix system, but at least there was enough supplemental material to work around its issues to a degree.

How?
He lost his 'link and cannot access it. How can he POSSIBLY tell it to give a mark to his buddy?

Prior to losing it, he could have had the hacker place a mark on the device's icon. That way, the hacker could see the icon regardless of silent running, because any icon you have a mark on you can see.

Best idea ever.
Give your buddies a mark on every device you own, just in case you might lose it some day.
That or time travel. I'm not sure which.