-- Absolutely. Making sure people don't stomp on each other at RC meets is a thing.

Im boggled then by the idea that a $100k cyberdeck cant control a $10 toy from radioshack, because the radio in the cyberdeck cant reach the right frequency?

Radio transmitters
This device complies with RSS 210 of Industry & Science Canada. Operation is subject to the following two conditions: (1) this device may not cause harmful interference and (2) this device must accept any interference received, including interference that may cause undesired operation.
To reduce potential radio interference to other users, the antenna type and its gain should be so chosen that the equivalent isotropically radiated power (EIRP) is not more than that permitted for successful communication.
This device has been designed to operate with the antennas listed in section 3.3.1 of this installation guide, and having a maximum gain of 13.9 dBi (2.4 GHz) and 13 dBi (5 GHz). Antennas not included in this list or having a gain greater than
13.9 dBi (2.4 GHz) and 13 dBi (5 GHz) are strictly prohibited for use with this device. The required antenna impedance is
50 ohms.
Label Marking: The Term "IC:" before the radio certification signifies that Industry Canada technical specifications were met.

Cant those things be interfered with and hijacked?

Not sure if this was directed at me or not, but I've read over this thread as well as the SR5 book on this issue. Yes, you can attempt to spot a hidden icon at more than 100m away from you, provided you know the icon is there and you have some piece of information about it. The problem is that there are no rules for detecting if there are hidden icons beyond 100m, from what I can glean from the entire Matrix section of the rulebook. If you think there's a decker running silent 200m out, you have no way of detecting if there are hidden icons beyond your 100m signal range. Until you know for certain there's a hidden icon, you cannot attempt to spot an icon that you don't know is there. You can attempt to find the hidden icon either by getting within 100m and doing a Matrix Perception test to notice hidden icons or by encountering the icon in some fashion before they go silent and hide from you beyond that 100m range.

Now, this does kind of open up a grey area where you can rule that observing the opposing decker's results (some piece of tech on your side gets bricked, etc) lets you know that the hidden icon exists, and as long as you know something about that icon (what their persona-skin looks like, or whatever) you can then attempt a Matrix Spot test...but until you know for certain that that icon is out there, you can't do squat about it until it gets within 100m of you while you're actively looking for hidden icons.

TL;DR: Matrix Spot test requires you to know a hidden icon exists before spotting it, there are no ways to know there are hidden icons beyond 100m.

Not to mention that a cyberdeck, built to interact with the matrix should not use the same frequencies as the RC plane...or the RC plane's controller could hack the matrix! Screw the $100k cyberdeck.

Why shouldn't it?

That doesnt necessarily follow. A cyberdeck is a controller but a controller is not a cyberdeck. A comlink uses the same frequencies as a cyberdeck. It cant hack the matrix.

Also:

Why would they go through the expense of putting two different radios into these devices? One for matrix access, one for non matrix access? If the cost is so negligible that it doesnt matter, then, why not in my cyberdeck? If its one radio that can do both, then why not in my cyberdeck? Hell, why not in every device?

It just seems strange to me that we are saying that there are wireless signals being flunh about, but a highly expensive piece of equipment designed to hack shit cant interact with them. Because apparently that would be unfair?

It's not necessarily unfair, but rather a division of labor so to speak.

The cyberdeck is designed to work with programs to navigate and interact with the matrix and all of it's protocols. That is enough to keep it plenty busy.

I imagine you could modify one to cover a broader spectrum of tasks, so if you wanted to have your cyberdeck run micro transceiver conversations or old fashioned CB radio if you really wanted, but the question is do you want to?

As I sit here at my computer I can scan for available networks, because that's what I want my system to do, but I am not going to detect radio stations, old fashioned TV signals or my neighbour son's RC car he is running up and down the street (note to self, mini land mines).

Could I adapt my computer to do these things, sure with some added bits and time, but it wont be standard for the device.

Level with us, do you have any idea what wireless communication really is, or why you would want to use different frequencies for different purposes? Because from your post above, I don't think you actually know what you're talking about.

Or....maybe you were just wrong?

I'm going to go with Occam's Razor here.

TL;DR: Matrix Spot test requires you to know a hidden icon exists before spotting it, there are no ways to know there are hidden icons beyond 100m.

yeah, you have any actual proof of this, or is this just your personal interpretation of why you are right and everyone else is wrong?

yes, i noticed that datajacks have a cable. i also noticed that when using that cable, there is no noise penalty, ever. there is no point in having noise reduction 1 a special matrix bonus, unless wireless and on the matrix means two different things, because if they are the same the *only* time you can ever have noise penalties is when you're on the matrix in the first place. it would be like stating you get a +2 bonus to ride your bicycle, but only when you're on a bicycle. sure, that's true, but why would you go out of your way to say that?

as another very explicit example, the grenades and launchers i mentioned are perfectly clear. having the grenades on the matrix means you can trigger them as if you have DNI, whether you have DNI or not. not having them on the matrix doesn't determine whether they can be triggered by wireless or not, it merely means you must *actually* have DNI. if being on the matrix and having wireless on are the same thing, then that means you never need DNI, because every single one of the grenades *and* grenade launchers have that special ability. so the fact that there are rules that ever state you can wirelessly detonate them as a certain action without DNI, combined with the fact that being on the matrix means you don't need the DNI at all, indicates there is a difference between having them in wireless mode and having them on the matrix. otherwise, they wouldn't bother ever telling you that you need a DNI, because the only time you could ever use that DNI to trigger them, you wouldn't need the DNI.

microtranceiver, detonator cap: wait, weren't you just a little while ago going on and on about how there was no such thing as wireless without the matrix? how every single form of wireless communication, no matter how minor, was on the matrix, making it absolutely impossible to ever under any circumstances control a device wirelessly without using the matrix? so how is it that these two specific devices seem to outmagic the magical matrix and manage to remain separate when that supposedly isn't even possible? i'm going to go out on a limb here and suggest that it's because the matrix doesn't magically subsume all forms of wireless communication.

That is very true...

So, if wireless and the matrix are not the same, then by turning off my wireless bonus, my radio communications become immune to evesdropping? And bluetooth is simply unhackable, in the case of a smartgun?

Theres no rules for intercepting or interferring with wireless non matrix communication to my knowledge. Even jammers dont seem to work that way anymore because they cause Noise.

Outside of detcaps and possibly microtransceivers, there are no rules for wireless non-matrix connections at all that I can find.

by turning off my wireless bonus, my radio communications become immune to evesdropping? And bluetooth is simply unhackable, in the case of a smartgun?

or, you can see that there is a person with gear that is not visible on the matrix, and hey guess what: you now know there's a hidden icon there. crazy how that works. or, alternately, if they actually have all their wireless shut off to prevent that, then we're right back to the point we've been making all along:

And there's where your whole argument comes crashing down. You do not know anything, you're only assuming possibilities. Until you KNOW something about an icon, you can't interact with it.

Or, I guess you could just forget that running silent should have a point to it, rip that section out of the book and then complain that section is not in the book and that hackers are too potent without it. Which is a completely sane way to go about considering system mechanics isn't it?.....................

It's only true because those very forces are commanded by governments who aren't willing to do whatever it takes to win, while usually the other side is, mainly because they have very little to lose.

Not surprisingly this didn't answer his question.

Also, here's a quick and dirty refutation of the Matrix being "transmitting and receiving on any and all bands"

Visual Light is a band that exists inside the electromagnetic spectrum. So are radio waves and microwaves.

I can build a transmitter and receiver for all three across the wireless spectrum.

The first is known as a laser and it would be a bad idea for the matrix at large to utilize these bands, as it would blind us. Ergo visible light is not part of the matrix.
The second is known as a radio. And unless my car's radio is considered to be on the matrix when it is receiving, and incapable of transmitting, then radio waves are not part of the matrix.
The third is the band of wavelengths that cause excitation of water molecules to heat food (and other things). Even more high energy waves exist and quickly start becoming dangerous and/or deadly but it is still technically possible to build a wireless communication network using them. But it would not be advisable to do so. Ergo the high energy waves are not part of the matrix.

Fourth, there is no upper or lower limit on wavelength. The "band" is effectively infinitely wide and it is not possible to use all of them (see: Gabriel's Horn).

Thus, the matrix, as you define it ("transmitting and receiving on any and all bands"), is wrong.
Q.E.D. I can build a wireless-capable device that is not part of the matrix.

Seriously? Are we really taking an argument that far into reality about a game that has dragons in it? I mean FFS, none of this stuff matters. The game has set rules to create boundaries around how certain archetypes exist because they didn't want Deckers/Riggers being the archetype that does everything from home while urinating in empty mountain dew bottles.

There's no point arguing against stuff like this, it's totally pointless. Just don't play SR5. Problem solved. Oh but keep ignoring every other logic loophole that exists around the other half of the rules because those ones you just happen to like, that were alive and well in every other version of SR out there.... because fuck it, that's why.

I'm pretty sure absolutely none of us have arguments against design intent, as far as getting riggers and deckers out and running.

And there's where your whole argument comes crashing down. You do not know anything, you're only assuming possibilities. Until you KNOW something about an icon, you can't interact with it.

Or, I guess you could just forget that running silent should have a point to it, rip that section out of the book and then complain that section is not in the book and that hackers are too potent without it. Which is a completely sane way to go about considering system mechanics isn't it?.....................

By your own definition, it is therefore impossible to interact with running silent icons at all, as you can never definitively know that they're there as opposed to any given device being a throwback.

If you're arguing that the idea of a wireless bonus is inherently flawed, I have a pretty solid counter-example on that:

If there were an expert system (which, if you're not familiar with them, basically have two components: the rules through which it makes inferences, and the knowledge base it uses in order to apply those rules and reach conclusions) that was designed to pull data from sensors in the area to help expand its knowledge base in live time, then forward conclusions about what is going to happen in the very near future to your Wired Reflexes and Reaction Enhancers, would you disagree with the proposition that such a system could help your Wired Reflexes and Reaction Enhancers work better? Or that such a system would require external connectivity? Keeping in mind that this is an example of how a wireless bonus could work, and thus setting entirely aside the present implementation of wireless bonuses, if you disagree with the preceding what would be your reasoning?