Run and Gun "Preview" #1 Options

[RHat]

I had a thought about this too for the smartguns, so that by pinging off the other sensors/systems in the area, it can make predictions on target location, so say target runs behind a car for cover. If I could access other sensors, I might be able to extrapolate where they were behind the vehicle to punch through if you have a heavy enough weapon or if they were moving out where would be the most probable exit path to cover.

But the one flaw I see in this is how does my system get access to those other sensors/system. Sure as a mesh/matrix system they share some processing cycles but do I get access to hard data from them and if so, shouldn't this be managed somehow? Sure for my smartgun, tapping into local weather bits to help plan for windage and such, but if I am using my wireless enable weapon inside the Azzie pyramid, should I reasonably be able to access those surrounding sensors for the added bits for my own system to benefit....

I am hesitant to use the term, but the anology does sort of fit and I would almost treat the Azzies sensors as aspected, meaning those designed to work with Azzie tech could benefit but other wireless systems wouldn't necessary get the full package...

I'd figure that it was part of the new Matrix protocols - basic access for these sorts of purposes is baked in, because the corps realized that if they did things that way they could make more money (because people are much less likely to buy into something that basically only works when all the sensors in the area are from the same manufacturer). That way, if the Azzie security team is using, say, the Yamaha Raiden due to it's being a damn good assault rifle, they also still get the benefit. And given how quickly this needs to operate, I can see them wanting to keep barriers to function out of the way.

But if you wanted to treat this stuff as "aspected" for lack of a better term, that could be an interesting system; would hacker then basically be able to break into the domain prior to the run to get your team access?

[Tymeaus Jalynsfe...]

It's only true because those very forces are commanded by governments who aren't willing to do whatever it takes to win, while usually the other side is, mainly because they have very little to lose.

So now you add caveats? That is not how it works. *shrug*
Per the Premise, the US should have stomped all over the Vietnamese, and all opposition since the Vietnam War. The fact that is has not turned out that way is very telling.
Therefore, irregardless of whether all things are equal, technology is just a tool that may or may not provide a winning scenario.

[RHat]

So now you add caveats? That is not how it works. *shrug*
Per the Premise, the US should have stomped all over the Vietnamese, and all opposition since the Vietnam War. The fact that is has not turned out that way is very telling.
Therefore, irregardless of whether all things are equal, technology is just a tool that may or may not provide a winning scenario.

And I suppose it hasn't occurred to you that the Vietnamese had advantages like familiarity with the environment that prevented this from being a case of "all things being equal"?

[Tymeaus Jalynsfe...]

And I suppose it hasn't occurred to you that the Vietnamese had advantages like familiarity with the environment that prevented this from being a case of "all things being equal"?

Wow... the rationalization continues.
Yes, the Vietnamese has terrain familiarity, and substandard training, and substandard tools, substandard nutrition, etc. So, they were outgunned, out trained, and out teched. And yet, they still managed to kick ass all over their little country for over a decade.

Either Superior Tech matters or it is just a tool. Which is it?
Because if you are going to use the rationale that Terrain Familiarity matters, the Corps will always win; it is their home ground after all. Damn, Shadowrunners might as well just pack it up and go home. *shrug*

Having served in the Military, I can guarantee you that Tech is JUST a tool, and nothing more. Sometimes it matters, and other times it does not.

[RHat]

Wow... the rationalization continues. Either Superior Tech matters or it is just a tool. Which is it?

That's a false dichotomy, and you know it.

And you seem to be misunderstanding what "all things being equal" means, since you've been bring up examples where that wasn't the case.

[Tymeaus Jalynsfe...]

That's a false dichotomy, and you know it.

No it isn't. That was what was stated earlier... that Superior Tech wins. And as I pointed out, that is false.

[Smash]

exactly this. you never KNOW the icon is there. you can make an educated guess, at best. you can never 100% know it's there until you have actually spotted it. so we can either presume that the system is designed so that you can't search for a hidden icon unless you have already somehow spotted it, which is moronic, or we can assume that you can make an educated guess.

Or you could just acknowledge that the book differentiates 2 scenarios: one inside 100m where you can spot hidden icons and one outside 100m where you need to KNOW (as opposed to guess or assume) something about the icon (which knowing it's hidden within 100m is defined as something you know).

you need to know ONE feature of an icon. one. not everything about it. just one. there is even a matrix perception table with dice pools for spotting hidden icons that are more than 100 meters away from you, which clearly indicates that you are supposed to be able to do so.

Yes, when you know something about the icon (beside's Joe told me so) you can then search for it outside 100m with applicable noise penalties.

you can do a blind check for hidden icons within 100 meters. you can also do a non-blind check, where you know something about the icon you're looking for, beyond 100 meters.

Exactly, so what are you arguing exactly? Just tell me how you KNOW anything about an icon outside of 100m? Give me a scenario that involves the matrix, not just that "Steve saw some bloke at co-ordinates X/Y and that he probably has gear and stuff".

otherwise i put a host into hidden mode and it becomes completely impossible to ever find for anyone unless you're already inside it, because hosts are never within 100 meters of anything and you never actually *know* the host is there unless you can already see it (otherwise, you're just guessing that it's there, and has not been taken offline or never even existed in the first place).

/sigh. Hosts are on hardware aren't they? And I think that there's an argument against whether you can just have devices passively slaved to hosts but whatever. The issue here is that you just want there to be an issue so you can join the haters. We get it, just don't play it or pretend there's no wireless or whatever helps you reconcile the game so you can play it. Just don't expect to find rational people in droves who are going to share your Shadowrun world view.

[RHat]

No it isn't. That was what was stated earlier... that Superior Tech wins. And as I pointed out, that is false.

Well, historically that's the case, but what was ACTUALLY stated is that "all things being equal, the superior tech wins". Yes, it's a tool, but if both sides are making full use of all of their tools, and are making equally good strategic and tactical decisions given available information, and know the ground just as well as each other, and so on, then the side that has a very useful tool the other does not, and in fact has more and better information than the other side because of this tool, then the side that has that tool will win.

The fact that it's a tool like anything else, which I've previously acknowledged, doesn't changed this point at all. It's a tool, but it's a tool that MATTERS.

[Smash]

That's a false dichotomy, and you know it.

And you seem to be misunderstanding what "all things being equal" means, since you've been bring up examples where that wasn't the case.

Exactly. Any argument about this kind of thing has a caveate and that caveate is 'All things being equal - this"

All things being equal, the better tech provides an advantage. TJ, you can not provide anything to suggest that the Vietnam war would have been won if the US had the crappier technology AND every other variable didn't change.

If every village in afganistan was carpet bombed (and I'm in no way suggesting this be a solution) then the resistance in Afganistan would stop. If collateral damage became something that wasn't considered then the force with the better technology would win every time.

(can't wait for all the geo-political arguments that are bound to spring up now. So much for moving goal posts..........)

[Tymeaus Jalynsfe...]

So, Smash, here is a question...

My Runners KNOW that the Security Team carries Hidden gear. They KNOW the Matrix Frequencies that the gear talks on, the know the Make and Model of their weapons, their Comlinks, and the ware they have in their bodies. They KNOW which guard has which cyber. They KNOW that the facility covers 5 square miles of wilderness, and have mapped it out via satellite, air and ground drones. They KNOW all this because their hacker managed to hack the supplies and personnel database prior to going in, and spent an additional week conducting remote surveillance on the facility. And yet you still tell me that the Team Hacker will have absolutely no way of identifying any of that once they start the run because he has never been with 100 Meters of a guard prior to the run? If that is your stance, I have to disagree with you.

[Tymeaus Jalynsfe...]

Exactly. Any argument about this kind of thing has a caveate and that caveate is 'All things being equal - this"

All things being equal, the better tech provides an advantage. TJ, you can not provide anything to suggest that the Vietnam war would have been won if the US had the crappier technology AND every other variable didn't change.

If every village in afganistan was carpet bombed (and I'm in no way suggesting this be a solution) then the resistance in Afganistan would stop. If collateral damage became something that wasn't considered then the force with the better technology would win every time.

(can't wait for all the geo-political arguments that are bound to spring up now. So much for moving goal posts..........)

America had all the advantages but one, and had the overwhelming Technological advantage. By the statement made earlier, the US should have kicked ass all over that little country. And yet that did not happen. Are you going to tell me that their knowledge of the terrain overcame all the other deficits that they suffered under? If THAT is your stance, I call BS as well.

The Fact is: Technology is JUST A TOOL. Yes, it can give advantage. But that advantage does not a war win.

In Shadowrun, the Runners are on the losing end of that equation every time, when they go up against the Megas. So, all things being equal, the Corps will win every time, since they have the technological advantage. So, Runners go home. Game over.

[RHat]

What one advantage didn't they have?

[Tymeaus Jalynsfe...]

What one advantage didn't they have?

Terrain Familiarity - Apparently that goes to the Vietnamese. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)
Training, Equipment, Tech, Infrastructure - All go to the US.

In Shadowrun's Case...
The Megas have ALL the Advantages, and the Technological Edge to boot. So why ever run against them? According to you and Smash, the runners lose at that point. After all, they have the superior technology. Or have you come around to the point I was trying to make in that Technology is simply a tool to be used?

[MrGlee]

America had all the advantages but one, and had the overwhelming Technological advantage. By the statement made earlier, the US should have kicked ass all over that little country. And yet that did not happen. Are you going to tell me that their knowledge of the terrain overcame all the other deficits that they suffered under? If THAT is your stance, I call BS as well.

The Fact is: Technology is JUST A TOOL. Yes, it can give advantage. But that advantage does not a war win.

From what I understand and remember from my high school history class, we were winning, both areas controlled and peopled killed(and in both percentage and total). However, there was a huge moral problem, in part stemming from the news reporting upon soldier's bodies being brought home. This also caused tons of turmoil at home that led to us eventually backing out. This could, of course, be colored by America dictating what I heard in school, so grain of slat there, but that is what I remember hearing about.

[RHat]

How's about troop motivation/morale? Enemy recognition? Climate adaptation? Things I can't even think of?

I'm pretty damn sure there was more than one advantage that went to the Vietnamese, and certainly there were some very, very major ones - the terrain was basically a weapon for them, way I understand it.

[Tymeaus Jalynsfe...]

From what I understand and remember from my high school history class, we were winning, both areas controlled and peopled killed(and in both percentage and total). However, there was a huge moral problem, in part stemming from the news reporting upon soldier's bodies being brought home. This also caused tons of turmoil at home that led to us eventually backing out. This could, of course, be colored by America dictating what I heard in school, so grain of slat there, but that is what I remember hearing about.

Trying to stay away from the politics of the war and stay on track with the premise of Technology as an "I Win" button. But yes, there were Political Issues as well. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)

[X-Kalibur]

Terrain Familiarity - Apparently that goes to the Vietnamese. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)
Training, Equipment, Tech, Infrastructure - All go to the US.

In Shadowrun's Case...
The Megas have ALL the Advantages, and the Technological Edge to boot. So why ever run against them? According to you and Samoth, the runners lose at that point. After all, they have the superior technology. Or have you come around to the point I was trying to make in that Technology is simply a tool to be used?

The VC had the ability to hit and fade. They also had a psychological advantage.

Although I will say this, ultimately, the megas do always win against the 'runner because they (the mega) has every advantage in scores. You may beat them for a time, but they will always win, given a long enough timeline.

[Tymeaus Jalynsfe...]

How's about troop motivation/morale? Enemy recognition? Climate adaptation? Things I can't even think of?

I'm pretty damn sure there was more than one advantage that went to the Vietnamese, and certainly there were some very, very major ones - the terrain was basically a weapon for them, way I understand it.

Troop Motivation/Morale is a wash in my book - Both sides were pretty demoralized.
Enemy Recognition is a red herring. Both sides had issues with that as well.
Climate? Maybe, but having been in a variety of environments (both in war and out) during my time in the Corps, acclimatization happens relatively quickly.
As for things you can't think of, they also apply to both sides. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)

We should probably move away from the realities, though, as I never intended to get into an in-depth conversation on the socio-political aspects of the war, and bring it back to Shadowrun. Though I do stand by my comments.

Apologies for the diversion into TOS territory. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/wobble.gif)

[RHat]

I disagree with your assessment, but perhaps we should stop discussing this on thread. Not a bad subject to take to PM though.

[Draco18s]

Seriously? Are we really taking an argument that far into reality about a game that has dragons in it? I mean FFS, none of this stuff matters. The game has set rules to create boundaries around how certain archetypes exist because they didn't want Deckers/Riggers being the archetype that does everything from home while urinating in empty mountain dew bottles.

Whee!
Can't even form a rational argument now.
I can't decide if this is Special Pleading, Bandwagon, or Appeal to Authority. None of this matters though, it's all fantasy!

[psychophipps]

Vietnam was lost because of a lack of political will and corruption. In fact, these same two issues haunted us in Iraq Part Deux and still cause us grief in Afghanistan.

[RHat]

Whee!
Can't even form a rational argument now.
I can't decide if this is Special Pleading, Bandwagon, or Appeal to Authority. None of this matters though, it's all fantasy!

Can't be special pleading - that applies to calling for a special exemption in only one case because that case is "special"; by comparison, this argument would be extending already existing exemptions to something else. Bandwagon doesn't really work either. Frankly, Appeal to Authority doesn't really apply because the reasons for the authority's standpoint are provided.

If you're going to call out fallacies, at least make sure they apply.

[Tymeaus Jalynsfe...]

All things being equal, the better tech provides an advantage.

Coming back to this...

I would say that "All things being equal" does not work as a comparison. Mainly because in the real world (or the "world" of Shadowrun) there is never an instance where you can actually make that statement. The advantage always goes to one side or the other. And that advantage does not always matter. I still stand by the statement that Technology is just a tool. You can have an inferior force make better use of their tools than the superior side makes use of theirs. And that is where the Shadowruner can shine, since he will always be the underdog in any comparison to the Corporations. If he can make better use of the tools he has, then he may just win the day. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/cool.gif)

[Draco18s]

Can't be special pleading - that applies to calling for a special exemption in only one case because that case is "special"; by comparison, this argument would be extending already existing exemptions to something else. Bandwagon doesn't really work either. Frankly, Appeal to Authority doesn't really apply because the reasons for the authority's standpoint are provided.

If you're going to call out fallacies, at least make sure they apply.

Either way, I don't give two shits any more as you haven't actually refuted my argument.

[apple]

I invite all tech-fanboys to google for German "Inpol alt" and "Inpol neu" (if they want to cry). (IMG:style_emoticons/default/wink.gif)

Tech indeed can be awesome, but as pointed out it is just a tool. At the right time, under the right conditions this tool may be the deciding factor. However every tool is just as good as the creator and user. And especially in a world like Shadowrun, a dystopia, with corruption, lethal inner fighting, gigantic monolithic corps with more bureaucracy then the US combined. Yes, in theory tech is perfect. What is not perfect is the creator and the user, and if you look around IRL and just imagine that the guy who cannot even reset his own password and answers the tech support question "What web browser are you using?" with "Windows XP" is the same guy running the security scans and alert distribution processes in Shadowrun

Just a small example: some month ago almost half of the US Air Force ISBM launch officers (you know the guys who could level a continent in 30min) were put on hold because it was made public that they all failed their tests. I would like to emphasize that the US Air Force is, compared to the rest of the world, one of the most technological advanced armies in the world, and that it was well known that they all have failed (for years). Other officers were put on trial, because the Dominos pizza boy simply was able to walk into the open launch bunker to deliver pizzas (and found the launch officers sleeping). And I would consider the launch facility of the nuclear armagedon to be a place with strict supervision, control and countercontrol with a lot of tech supporting the mission (and security). And yet, all the tech, all the controls, all the "you are fucking working in an ICBM launch bunker, don´t screw up" mentality did not help - the need for a double pepperoni with extra cheese is stronger than mission orders.

Ignoring human stupidity, corruption, laziness, greed is simply unrealistic.

And I cannot image anything different 60 years in the future.

So yes, the corps have the better tech. Unfortunately its off power, because of pizza delivery.

SYL