Hardened Milspec?, Run and Gun preview 1 Options

[FuelDrop]

Okay, our group has been looking through the preview and the milspec armour caught our eyes. However, when you stop to think about it this stuff is a bit of a game breaker.

For instance, let's say that someone in medium milspec armour + helmet with a body of 4 is in a fight and someone opens up on him at full auto with an Ares Alpha assault rifle full of APDS, and gets a not exactly measly 5 hits.

Now our MM soldier has hardened armour 21, which is reduced to 15 by the net -6 AP of the rifle. the damage he's dealing with is 16 points, enough to outright floor most characters. Now 8 points of damage is automatically soaked by the hardened armour, leaving 8 to soak on 19 dice. 19 dice averages 6 1/3 hits, which we round down to 6 leaving 2 damage.

If the guy in the milspec had a measly 2 points of dermal plating or plastic bone lacing this becomes a single point of stun.


Now obviously this means that you need to deploy heavy weapons to deal with Milspec armour, but if there are any PCs without milspec then they'll go down from even standing nearby.
Also, you need seriously heavy weapons. HE grenades will have no effect on this guy.

The rule becomes all milspec or no milspec. One other side effect is that any serious opposition will be carrying assault cannons and missile launchers, which are apparently standard issue in modern armies...

[Moirdryd]

I think the new called shot rules in the book may lean towards a balancing factor, also Direct Combat Spells don't care what armour you are wearing. There are also the Ambush auto fire optional rules too. Plus I imagine AV rounds would also spoil someone in Milspec armour's day.

[MrGlee]

To be fair, it is a bit better than hardened armor in 4E, which in this scenario, would have completely stopped the damage all together with a single hit(or, if not a single hit was rolled, the character would have exploded).

Currently though, getting Milspec armor is gonna be hard. I expect it is gonna have to be custom fitted, it is reasonably pricey(seems to be around 1-2 runs with all the cash going towards the armor, though even with that it might be a little undercosted), and high enough availability that it at least won't be easy to get till around five sessions in. Now, if Restricted Gear ever gets turned into a 5e quality, yeah, that is gonna be a problem. Right now, I feel it is less so.

[Lobo0705]

And, unless you are running a campaign where your runners are playing mercenaries in a combat zone (which is possible, there is a PbP thread up on this now) - under no circumstances should your GM allow your character to have this.

Or, if he does, then expect that when someone sees you with it on, the response should be appropriate - i.e. high force spirits, anti-vehicle weapons, full HTR teams, etc.

[forgarn]

And remember you have the "appearance" factor. Someone walking down the street or into a building with Milspec armor on is just inviting the HRT teams with heavy weapons (also wearing Milspec armor) and armored vehicles to join the fun.

I have always played any RPG with the rule "if you bring it as a player, I am going to bring it as a GM." Although I always wait for the players to bring it first.

[Sendaz]

It should be a very rare occasion you would run into this sort of armor. Even modern militaries do not deck out every single fighter with this sort of gear, even in the description this is designated for more elite units and corp equivalents.

Part of the problem is that they leave out so much about the wearing of this. Weight, encumbrance, flexibility are all handwaved over so of course it looks like the ripe plum.

Also when you are wearing this, you make yourself much more of a target, which is partly the idea of it-drawing fire away from their softer team mates because they can just plain soak it better.

Magic gives several options to counter this.. the aforementioned Direct spells bypass armor, a summoned ele can engulf the suit wearer, etc....

I have always played any RPG with the rule "if you bring it as a player, I am going to bring it as a GM." Although I always wait for the players to bring it first.

So if the players bring Nerf Weapons on a run.......... (IMG:style_emoticons/default/wink.gif)

[FuelDrop]

So if the players bring Nerf Weapons on a run.......... (IMG:style_emoticons/default/wink.gif)

Nerf make super soakers.

The squirtgun wars were begun.

[toturi]

And remember you have the "appearance" factor. Someone walking down the street or into a building with Milspec armor on is just inviting the HRT teams with heavy weapons (also wearing Milspec armor) and armored vehicles to join the fun.

I have always played any RPG with the rule "if you bring it as a player, I am going to bring it as a GM." Although I always wait for the players to bring it first.

It depends on whether you know anyone with the "Fashion" spell or its SR5 equivalent.

I have always played any RPG with the rule "if I bring the best stuff as a player, the GM can't bring it; else I hit him upside the head with my books and I have the most books".

[Lobo0705]

It depends on whether you know anyone with the "Fashion" spell or its SR5 equivalent.

I have always played any RPG with the rule "if I bring the best stuff as a player, the GM can't bring it; else I hit him upside the head with my books and I have the most books".

It depends on how they do the Fashion spell too.

In 3e, you couldn't cast Fashion on any clothing whose armor was higher than the Force of the spell (+1 for every two successes).
In 4e, the ludicrously-pinko-commie-mages-should-rule-the-world lobby came in and made it just work on all armor equally, with no penalty. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)

[Drace]

I highly expect encumberance will be a part of run and gun. And this will play a huge factor into the armour.

Also let's look at all the downsides:

1)horribly expensive
2)ultra rare. Not just does it have a high availability, but how the hell is Sammie #3 going to get it? Most militaries do t have them but in a small supply, so to factors play in.
3)Over heating. Read Picadors post, any GM worth th name will play that up
4)Conspicuous. You stand out worse than a naked albino troll carrying a flaming signpost. Those can be explained. You? Not so much
5)Targeted. Let's just say Geek te Mage first becomes moot when there is a person wearin the equivalent of a dragon on them for armour. Expect every sniper shot, vehicle weapon, grenade to be used agaisnt you and their tactics done to delay you and work you down one box at a time.
6)upkeep. A major downside is that anytime the character upgrades their physical stats the armour has to be refitted. Which can b either hella expensive or hella time consuming.

Now let's look at the upside:
1)moderate to High armour rating (same as sec armour for light, and up from their)
2)hardened

[Ixal]

there is a person wearin the equivalent of a dragon on them for armour.

And if all else fails just introduce double dragons as opponents (dragons wearing custom made hardened milspec armor).

[FuelDrop]

I highly expect encumberance will be a part of run and gun. And this will play a huge factor into the armour.

Also let's look at all the downsides:

1)horribly expensive
2)ultra rare. Not just does it have a high availability, but how the hell is Sammie #3 going to get it? Most militaries do t have them but in a small supply, so to factors play in.
3)Over heating. Read Picadors post, any GM worth th name will play that up
4)Conspicuous. You stand out worse than a naked albino troll carrying a flaming signpost. Those can be explained. You? Not so much
5)Targeted. Let's just say Geek te Mage first becomes moot when there is a person wearin the equivalent of a dragon on them for armour. Expect every sniper shot, vehicle weapon, grenade to be used agaisnt you and their tactics done to delay you and work you down one box at a time.
6)upkeep. A major downside is that anytime the character upgrades their physical stats the armour has to be refitted. Which can b either hella expensive or hella time consuming.

Now let's look at the upside:
1)moderate to High armour rating (same as sec armour for light, and up from their)
2)hardened

I can answer number 2: According to Vice the Triads do a rather nice line of knock-off milspec.
also number 5: Once you reach medium with helmet level grenades are harmless against you, and how many security companies/street gangs keep AV missiles/Assault cannons on hand at all times? Even sniper weapons are going to be more a nuisance than a threat much of the time.

[Ixal]

Once you reach medium with helmet level grenades are harmless against you, and how many security companies/street gangs keep AV missiles/Assault cannons on hand at all times?

They do not need to have them with them all times, but I am pretty sure everyone who is powerful enough to become the target of someone as armed as this has access to really big guns which will be requested as soon as the milspec armor is spotted. So it buys you a few minutes at the cost of having to deal with really though opposition later on.

[binarywraith]

It depends on whether you know anyone with the "Fashion" spell or its SR5 equivalent.

I have always played any RPG with the rule "if I bring the best stuff as a player, the GM can't bring it; else I hit him upside the head with my books and I have the most books".

That's the thing. The GM doesn't need better books. He controls the laws of probability in your character's universe. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/wink.gif)

[Drace]

I can answer number 2: According to Vice the Triads do a rather nice line of knock-off milspec.
also number 5: Once you reach medium with helmet level grenades are harmless against you, and how many security companies/street gangs keep AV missiles/Assault cannons on hand at all times? Even sniper weapons are going to be more a nuisance than a threat much of the time.

True about the Triads. But guess what? For the most part (though there are many exceptions irl) knock off are shittier versions by far. What makes anyone think that a criminal organization, as organized and funded as he triads are, would have more access to mil spec gear than major militaries?

As well, if your playing a game where you have mil spec players going up agaisnt gangers and sec companies something may be wrong with the game. Until KE/Corp HTR gets there (unless we are talking about it happening in Redmond barrens) in several minutes and uses Ex and APDS in their machine guns, assault cannons and heavy weaponry I deal with the problem. And they will be wearing milspec too. Cause HTR are the big guns, the elites and the storm troopers of the corporate militaries. Probably with drone and magical backup if the threat requires it.

Now for campaigns that are in iut of the way areas an are pink Mohawk, I could see those being great, the GM would just hav to set the bar high in opfor to make a challenge there. (Keep that in mind any Lock and Load players reading his (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif) )

Aswell as frequently mentioned, corpsec is much much underpowered than the average shadowrunner team. Their job in those situations is to delay whole HTR arrives while relaying possibly crucial info.

As for gangs, several adventures from back in th day hav gangs using mmgs and rocket launchers. If a shadowrunner can gt it so can a well injected ganger. Hell truth in television, those things are raided all the time by law enforcement usually to the question of "what the f*** is this doing here?! )

[Smash]

I think the new called shot rules in the book may lean towards a balancing factor, also Direct Combat Spells don't care what armour you are wearing. There are also the Ambush auto fire optional rules too. Plus I imagine AV rounds would also spoil someone in Milspec armour's day.

But direct combat spells have been deemed useless by plenty of forum members and thus can not be employed in either a tactical or strategic manner to deal with this scenario.

Mages must use regular weapons in all scenarios and therefore this type of armour breaks the game........... apparently.

[Smash]

Also, the logistics of this kind of armour would make it unpaletable for runners at the expense of it would outweigh the benefits. No doubt Run&Gun will have optional rules for armour degredation that I think will be more or less mandatory to implement if this level of gear is used.

[FuelDrop]

But direct combat spells have been deemed useless by plenty of forum members and thus can not be employed in either a tactical or strategic manner to deal with this scenario.

Mages must use regualar weapons in all scenarios and therefore this type of armour breaks the game........... apparently.

Well I don't play a mage. My mistake, I'll just go on being completely redundant. I forgot this is magicrun.

[Smash]

Well I don't play a mage. My mistake, I'll just go on being completely redundant. I forgot this is magicrun.

It's a bit of a WoW mentality that gives players the impression that their given archetype should be useful in all scenarios.

I don't think we can really blame the system when 'Manabolt' has been deemed useless and overpowered at the same time.

This is also another one of those scenarios when the writers have put something into the game for versimilitude(?) but is not really meant to be used in a Shadowrun context. I would think that any sane Shadowrunner that had to go up against some elite/heavy special forces unit would just pass on that job and suggest that the Johnson gets his corp to deploy their own big guns or get government backing, etc.

[Sendaz]

how well does one swim in this sort of armor? Can not imagine too well.. lure them on a pier and drop it into the bay or into a pit and fill with plascrete. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/nyahnyah.gif)

Didn't there used to be a hardening foam grenade?

[Umidori]

Currently though, getting Milspec armor is gonna be hard. I expect it is gonna have to be custom fitted, it is reasonably pricey(seems to be around 1-2 runs with all the cash going towards the armor, though even with that it might be a little undercosted), and high enough availability that it at least won't be easy to get till around five sessions in. Now, if Restricted Gear ever gets turned into a 5e quality, yeah, that is gonna be a problem. Right now, I feel it is less so.

Yeah, no.

Heavy Milspec + Helmet = (IMG:style_emoticons/default/nuyen.gif) 35,000.

That's absurdly cheap compared to the costs of things like cyberware and cyberdecks, which are everywhere. Corporations supposedly use Skillwires systems all the time to avoid having to train their personnel, but 5E prices them at 20,000 per point of rating. Corporations supposedly hire Hackers and Riggers to protect their compounds, but a rock-bottom-price utter piece of trash cyberdeck costs just under 50,000.

Let me rephrase that - the best armor in the game is only 70% the cost of the worst cyberdeck in the game.

The pricing on Milspec is just insane. I seriously hope the numbers in the preview are just placeholders.

~Umi

[MrGlee]

also, I have hope more gear is introduced for dealing with Milspec armor in the book, seeing as we have only seen parts of it currently. We might get more ammo for dealing with it, or more grenades and such. We got time, and if there are absolutely no tools for dealing with Milspec when in Run & Gun, then there might be some balance issues(though I still don't think so), and we might be worrying for nothing.

[Tymeaus Jalynsfe...]

But direct combat spells have been deemed useless by plenty of forum members and thus can not be employed in either a tactical or strategic manner to deal with this scenario.

Mages must use regular weapons in all scenarios and therefore this type of armour breaks the game........... apparently.

Considering that Direct combat spells are resisted by two stats AND only inflict damage based upon Net hits... Yeah, not so good. *shrug*
Hell... My mage in SR4A uses a gun instead of relying upon combat Spells... No Drain, after all. He can fire all day and twice on Sunday's even. *shrug* (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif) (IMG:style_emoticons/default/cool.gif)

[psychophipps]

Anything custom made holds a premium. Each suit has to individually fitted and it's not just the armor you're buying. You need to maintain it and that takes spare parts, specially tools and machines, and expertise.

[Smash]

Yeah, no.

Heavy Milspec + Helmet = (IMG:style_emoticons/default/nuyen.gif) 35,000.

That's absurdly cheap compared to the costs of things like cyberware and cyberdecks, which are everywhere. Corporations supposedly use Skillwires systems all the time to avoid having to train their personnel, but 5E prices them at 20,000 per point of rating. Corporations supposedly hire Hackers and Riggers to protect their compounds, but a rock-bottom-price utter piece of trash cyberdeck costs just under 50,000.

Let me rephrase that - the best armor in the game is only 70% the cost of the worst cyberdeck in the game.

The pricing on Milspec is just insane. I seriously hope the numbers in the preview are just placeholders.

~Umi

Good point. I was comparing it to the armoured jacket which is what $1000 or something like that?

So you're right, this cost needs to increase or armour needs to degrade. Replacing your lined coat after every 2nd fire-fight isn't that big a deal, but your 35k milspec? That certainly is a big deal.

One other minor point is that $35k is a lot harder to come by after character generation than during, but that's generally pretty specific to individual campaigns.